Podcast: Play in new window

Subscribe: RSS

Do you feel miles apart from your partner—even though you still love each other deeply? Many long-term couples gradually drift into a “roommate” dynamic: life feels stable, the relationship is intact, but something vital is missing. Over time, habits and strategies designed to avoid conflict and maintain harmony can quietly diminish the spark, intimacy, and passion that once brought you together.

In this episode, you'll discover why emotional distance often develops in otherwise loving relationships and what it takes to reconnect. Through fresh insights, relatable examples, and practical guidance, this conversation explores how the pursuit of stability can sometimes come at the expense of closeness. You'll learn why deeper intimacy requires a willingness to tolerate vulnerability, uncertainty, and emotional risk—and how embracing those challenges can strengthen your bond. Whether your relationship feels mildly disconnected or stuck in a long-standing rut, you'll come away with actionable tools and new perspectives to help reignite passion and create a more meaningful connection.

Dr. Bruce Chalmer is a psychologist and couples therapist with over 30 years of experience helping partners navigate the complexities of long-term relationships. Drawing on clinical insight, real-world compassion, and a deep understanding of how intimacy and anxiety intertwine, Dr. Chalmer has guided countless couples through the challenges explored in his books, video courses, and posts. With his wife, Judy Alexander, he is also the co-host of the podcast Couples Therapy in Seven Words and a trusted voice in relationship education.

Episode Highlights

04:30 How couples grapple with the competing needs for both stability and intimacy—and why this paradox lies at the heart of lasting relationships.

06:42 What often surprises couples in therapy and how rethinking “conflict” can actually bring unexpected relief and clarity.

11:22 How the pursuit of stability can slowly erode intimacy and why some couples find themselves drifting into “roommate mode” without realizing it.

15:15 Real-life examples of couples who deeply love each other but have quietly slipped into a routine that lacks real connection.

16:11 How fears—both known and hidden—can keep us from bringing up tough topics and leave couples feeling stuck.

22:15 Hidden anxieties that might be holding them back, especially for men.

23:51 What makes couples therapy so intimidating for so many.

27:26 How finding meaning—even in moments of anxiety—can shift your entire experience of relationship struggles.

31:08 How facing relationship challenges together can lead to a new sense of gratitude and growth that endures—even if the outcome isn’t what you expected.

37:55 Practical guidance on taking safe, manageable steps toward greater connection.

39:18 How embracing curiosity, support, and small risks can foster hope, healing, and renewed passion in your relationship.

Your Checklist of Actions to Take

• Pause and Breathe: Take a moment to ground yourself with deep breaths before entering important conversations to increase presence and reduce anxiety.
• Get Curious, Not Panicked: Approach difficult topics with curiosity instead of fear, reminding yourself that discomfort does not signal dysfunction.
• Acknowledge and Validate Fears: Recognize your own and your partner’s fears as legitimate rather than dismissing them, creating a safer environment for vulnerability.
• Define Desired Change: Together with your partner, clarify what “better” would look like in your relationship, orienting focus toward shared goals.
• Risk Small Vulnerabilities: Start by sharing a small, meaningful feeling or need with your partner, even if it feels scary, to practice intimacy in manageable doses.
• Reflect on Meaning and Purpose: Remind yourself of the value and meaning of your relationship, which can help bolster courage to tolerate uncertainty and discomfort.
• Use Support Systems: Consider seeking guidance from resources like books, video courses, or a trusted couples therapist to experience new ways of connecting.
• Celebrate Progress: After taking interpersonal risks, acknowledge positive outcomes and growth, reinforcing your willingness to keep stretching toward greater intimacy.

Mentioned

The Passion Paradox (course)

The Passion Paradox (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Betrayal and Forgiveness (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Couples Therapy in Seven Words (podcast)

Principia Amoris (book)

Man's Search for Meaning (book)

Mindset: The New Psychology of Success (book)

Managing Conflict in Relationships: An Interview with Dr. Jessica Higgins (YouTube episode)

ERP 110: How To Manage Two Majorly Conflicting Needs In Relationship

ERP 015: Do You Have A “Unity” Or “Journey” Mindset In Relationship?

ERP 446: Dealing With Betrayal In Relationship & Learning To Forgive

12 Relationship Principles to Strengthen Your Love (free guide)

Connect with Dr. Bruce Chalmer

Websites: brucechalmer.com | couplestherapyinsevenwords.com 

Facebook: facebook.com/drbrucechalmer 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/bruce-chalmer-95ab70305/ 

Instagram: instagram.com/dr_bruce_chalmer 

YouTube: youtube.com/brucechalmer

TikTok: tiktok.com/@drbrucechalmer 

Podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/couples-therapy-in-seven-words/id1517231158 

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Doctor Bruce Chalmer, thank you so much for joining us. 

Well, I'm delighted to be back here, and we've had several conversations, and I've enjoyed them all. So I'm looking forward to. 

Yes, yes. And for people who might have missed your first episode, which you were on the Empowered Relationship podcast, I'll put that on today's Show Notes. And then you're reminding me I was on your show. I'll also put that link to that episode on today's Show Notes as well. And you have a recent book, The Passion Paradox, which we're going to explore a little bit in today's conversation. And I guess, shall I start, or would you like to say something before I get started? 

Oh, feel. No, go whatever direction you'd like to go. 

Yeah, okay. So let's just get started because I know you could talk a lot about probably what prompted this book, but it sounds like maybe you could say a little bit here. But I imagine just helping couples negotiate what perhaps is presented in long-term intimacy. And that's one of the things you're pointing to, is the paradox that we have different forces that are critical for intimacy but don't quite seem to be in the same direction. There's a paradox there. 

Yes, there is. Yeah. And actually, I think I can kind of fold that into a description of where this book came from. 

Okay, great. 

And, you know, it's funny how this happens because it's the kind of thing like, why didn't I think of this years ago? Well, because I didn't, that's why. But here it is, you know, so I've written various other books as we've talked about before, and pretty much every session I do. Every first session I do with a couple. Pretty structured. My first sessions are pretty structured. And I will ask them my favorite. I will, spoiler alert. I'll give my favorite opening question, which is how will you know if this is helping? That's what I ask folks after the kind of confidentiality discussion and things like that. That's what I ask. And it sort of orients people right away that, oh, we have to figure out, is this helping? 

And then, what does better look like? You know, that sort of sends them in that direction. And so we talk about some of that stuff. And I have a few particular questions I make sure to cover. I usually do a family diagram in there as well, just to. That really generates stories. It's really a nice way of understanding what's going on, and then I say, okay, possible non sequitur. I alert people. I say, this may seem like a non sequitur, but I'm just curious, have you seen any of the stuff on my website? Now, why am I asking that? And I say, totally fine if you haven't. But the only relevance there is, I have a way. I like to structure a first session. 

And if you're curious about that stuff, you can find lots of information and books I've written and stuff like that, and the podcast I do with my wife, Judy Alexander, all that you can find on the website. So then I proceed to go into, I guess I'd call it a mini lecture. Five, six minutes, something. I don't know how long it takes, but by now I'm pretty much saying the same stuff because I've been saying this for decades. And what's that lecture about? Well, it is about what I have come just recently to call the title of that book, 

There's the paradox, and it isn't even. I've recently come to say this. It isn't even about balancing them. 

It's about simultaneously dealing with the fact that two things in conflict are both really important. I just love paradoxes. I guess that's why I throw the word paradox in the name of a book I wrote. It's like, I'm a sucker for a good paradox. So what do I mean by that? So I explain this to couples, and we can go into that or not. We'll see where this conversation goes. But I explain that and what almost always happens, and I guess I'm really sensitized to it, so I'm looking for it. It's like a light bulb moment. The couple says, ” Oh, I hadn't thought of it that way. I'll finish up my little lecture with my favorite metaphor about a plant growing and how intimacy is the energy for growth, and it'll crack a sidewalk if it has to. 

And so I'll say, does any of that resonate for you? And they will almost always say, ” Oh, yeah, that's totally what's going on, or something like that. And then they will, you know, there will be a moment of relief right there. It doesn't solve other problems, obviously, but it means that they're saying, oh, there's a different way of thinking about this than we thought we were messed up, or we thought I thought he or she was messed up. You know that one, or you know, or crazy, or something like that. Or, you know, fill in your favorite Internet label nowadays, you know, narcissistic or borderline or whatever the favorite nasty label is. And now they're thinking, oh, you mean this can happen with two basically sane, basically decent human beings and basically intelligent human beings? And that can happen. And yeah, by golly, there's no. 

You don't have to invoke any pathology. You're not broken. It still sucks, right? You're still in pain. I got that part. But it's a different way of looking at it. So there's the light bulb moment. So what does that have to do with? I'm sorry, go ahead. 

Well, I just want to. I appreciate what you're saying because I think it's very validating for, again, what are the natural core elements of cultivating intimacy? That they're not seemingly working together, although they do work together. Right. But they seem like different directions, if you will. And I did a podcast years ago, I'll put it on today's show notes. And it was talking about these two opposing forces. And I referenced a lot of Schnarch's work. I don't know if you've ever come across. 

And he gotta credit him. I have to credit him. A lot of those ideas, I'm sure, came out of my reading with Schnarch 20 years ago, 25 years ago by now. 

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's incredibly important where I think he uses more of the language of differentiating, being able to hold onto yourself, and then also having that intimacy and that we're really looking at interdependence, right? We're not looking at this the same. So I love this. And it's so important for people to have a sense of. Because I think culturally we get a lot of messaging around being symbiotic, right? We have this romantic notion of the same, like being in lockstep. And while there's a beauty in that, like the synchronized swimming and like just this sense of harmony that we do have individual selves that we're cultivating as well. And that pursuit of our goals, what we need, and our passion, is right. 

That's very tied to our vitality, that those things seemingly weave in and out, they're not always this lock and step. And then I don't know what you think, but I imagine some attachment tendencies layer on this as well with the culture. I mean, there are a lot of factors that inform what people think they should be doing, and in the service of a relationship. But if one is a little bit like, ooh, it's tough to approach harder topics because I know that hasn't always gone well. I tend to be more self-reliant. So tell me a little bit more based on what I'm saying. Okay. 

Yeah. Well, you're right on the. Yes, those are the very struggles that people are dealing with, those differences. You know, I don't usually get into like, you know, attachment theory per se. 

Yeah. 

But it's certainly when you talk about overlaying that more and more people are aware of that stuff, and so they'll sometimes use that language. And so I'm, you know, I'm comfortable with that language. It's interesting. Yeah. That phenomenon that you're not always going to be symbiotic, you're not always going to be swimming in a synchronized swimming thing, is great. John Gottman has a diagram in one of his books that I just love. I mean, I'm a nerdy guy myself. You know, I'm a recovering nerd with frequent relapses. And John Gottman can be very nerdy as well. And the one he wrote, I think it's Principia Amoris. It's got a nerdy title, even. That was one of his books, and I just love that book. 

It's very mathematical, all that stuff, all my old stuff that I used to do back in the day. And one of the diagrams he has in there is of a couple, and what he's measuring in this diagram is one of his 15-minute conversations about things you disagree about. And what he's measuring in the couple is some. I forgot whether it's a physiological measurement or something of arousal, and not necessarily positive arousal, but you know. 

Like how ones get activated.Or something like that. So because he will often have them wear pulse oximeters, and you know, see what's going on physiologically. So he showed a particular couple in a particular conversation, and it was just mapped over time, this measure of how physiologically aroused they were, and they were perfectly synchronized. It was like a beautiful, like I think like skaters in the Olympics, you know, like the ice dancing, you know. And I love the fact that if you look at that, and then you had another couple that showed that they were largely out of sync, and of course, which one was the one that's going to do well and which one isn't the one that's in sync, was screwed. Because the problem was that what was being measured was arousal, and it wasn't. They disagreed. So they were triggering each other. 

They were making it worse. “The couples that do well are the ones where somebody can upset their partner, not intentionally, but is willing to risk that and not freak out. And it helped calm their partner down. So it's the ability to be out of sync that is a crucial relationship skill. And that's part of the passion paradox.” Right? 

Yes. 

Yeah. So that. Go ahead. 

Well, I think this is tricky again, culturally or just. “However, we get the messaging around how to do a relationship is to emphasize the stability, especially if there are children, or the home life, and the finances and stability. Stability and the functioning of that. And that's really important. And if we're not approaching these more vulnerable conversations and we're not risking rocking the boat, so to speak, we're perhaps jeopardizing some of the passion.” 

Well, yeah. And of course, my thesis, which I don't claim credit for, but, you know, I think Schnarsch would have said something similar. The problem is that lack of intimacy, as I'm defining intimacy, that sense of being able to be alive, being able to risk the anxiety of perhaps displeasing your partner to say something important to you. 

Yeah. 

“The absence of that itself becomes destabilizing. We don't tolerate it. That's my metaphor about cracking the sidewalk. It's like the couple will crack the sidewalk if intimacy is cut off, metaphorically paving a sidewalk over it in the interest of stability. It won't work because the couple will somehow crack the sidewalk. Now, what does that look like? It sometimes looks like an affair. It sometimes looks like arguing about everything and nothing.” Those are the couples who come in and say, ” We get into an argument when we're saying anything more controversial than please pass the salt. And even then, sometimes when they're trying to figure out why, well, that's often what it is. They're both feeling so repressed, I guess, is a way of saying it, although I'm not sure that's the word I would want to use. But something like that, it just. 

They metaphorically, they crack the sidewalk. So all of that stuff is kind of how I structure my first sessions. After that, it's much more freeform. But here's my light bulb moment again. Took decades for me to hit this. But all of a sudden I realized, wait a sec. As I said, I could write a book that has all that stuff in it, so people could read that in conjunction with doing therapy with me or someone else, or without even doing therapy, you can learn from it. And so I wrote a book. And then more recently, we'll touch on this later, I made a video course out of it for the same reason, not everybody's ready for therapy, or even if they are ready for therapy. 

Either way, this is the stuff I'm thinking is I always put it in the first session, so why not make it available to people? Yes, that ought to be interesting to people. I hope it is. Anyway. That's why. That's where that book came from. 

Well, it can be a paradigm shift, and you're really helping people orient that. What might seem difficult, and things you want to avoid. Those are the very things that cultivate more intimacy. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So when you're really addressing people who have found themselves more or less in a roommate situation, they love each other, they're in a long-term established relationship, perhaps married, and have a family. Family. And they're in this roommate syndrome. Can you give people an example of what this might look like in an everyday moment, how they're choosing stability over intimacy? 

Oh, sure. Yeah. And first of all, let me just note, you pretty much paraphrased the subtitle of my book, which is when you feel miles apart and still love each other. Those are the folks I'm really addressing in that, you know, because they're the folks who come in crisis and they can benefit from it, too. That was more about my previous book about betrayal. But these are the folks exactly as you described the roommate situations. You know, what does that look like in practice? I was just talking with a couple earlier this week, actually, where they were describing that, you know, how that happened, because these are, they fit that so well. These are folks. There's no big crisis happening. There hasn't been infidelity. You know, they're not worried about somebody's substance problem or something like that. 

And they clearly love each other. There's no doubt, you know, like they're not looking to leave or anything, but over time, stuff. It had a lot to do with not risking instability. They didn't want, they don't want to bring up stuff. And what the woman of this was was a heterosexual couple. The woman of this couple was saying, ” You know, it's interesting, she happens to be the one with a higher libido between the two of them, which is not that unusual at all. And she said, so she, you know, she would wish he would want to have sex more often. But she said, what tends to happen is sex is the first thing to go when there's any amount of stress happening, and it's the last thing to come back when the stress sort of releases. 

And that has a lot to do with. It's hard to feel like you want to be that intimate. And of course, 

It's hard to feel like that when you don't feel like you can connect because it's too scary when it feels too anxiety-producing to say, ” Wow, we're worried we're going to get into a nasty argument. And again, this is a couple that they don't have horrible fights. What they tend to do is one or the other. I think she said she usually is the one who just sort of shuts down. 

Okay. 

And he's the one who would rather keep going, but he's not one of those people who's just going to metaphorically pound down the door. Sure. So it just kind of dies for a while. So that's sort of what the roommate situation seems to be about. And it's interesting because there are a couple where, sometimes, roommate situations are. Because something is lurking in the background that's really a deal breaker. You know, something like, turns out one or the other in a heterosexual couple is gay. Hasn't figured that out yet. Or, turns out, oh, my God, you know, we're two good people, but we just aren't compatible sexually or not compatible for other reasons sometimes. A different couple I talked with this week they're struggling about whether they want to have kids. 

And one of them has always wanted to have kids, and the other has always been uncertain and is still uncertain. So it's not all the way to full deal-breaker status. But that's always. That lurks in the background of their conversations. And so it makes it hard to risk, you know, something as simple as, hey, would you please pick up your jacket? You know. 

Yes. Okay. So thank you for even going a little bit further and identifying some of the fears that might be operating either consciously or unconsciously, that make this too hard to approach. 

Are there other ways in which? Because I think just even being in a vulnerable intimate relationship can feel scary to some degree or another. Just to reveal those inside parts that might not feel lovable or feel like they're needy, or something. Can you speak about how that lives in us? 

Yeah, I mean, that's kind of the central. I don't know what to call it. Insight or something. The central part of the hypothesis, the chief skill of intimacy, is to tolerate that very anxiety rather than avoid it. And we have. Yeah, we have those. Everybody has them for various reasons. And, it's certainly easy sometimes or worthwhile sometimes to sort of go back over your background and, you know, childhood and what you see with your parents and all that kind of stuff that we often ask folks about, because that often bears on. How did you come to be afraid of what you're afraid of? We're all afraid of something. It's not a bug of evolution. It's a feature, keeps us from crossing the street without looking both ways, that stuff. So we all have our various fears, and they are shaped. 

It's another corollary of one of the things I almost always tell couples. And it's usually about. Well, it's right. Right about when I'm about to do the. The talk. It's when I'm doing the talk about stability and intimacy, and I'm talking about stability. And I almost always say to couples, right at that point, I said, well, now that we're old buddies, since I've known you for 17 minutes or however long it's been, I will say, pretty sure. With respect to stability. Pretty sure. I can tell neither one of you is batshit crazy, right? And they smile and, you know, sometimes they will say, well, you haven't seen me at my work. 

Is that a joke? 

Yeah, they'll make a joke. And I always like to point out I'm not trying to make fun of serious mental health issues, but what I'm noting is they're not psychotic. You know, they're not thinking. The FBI is controlling the signals in their brain. I did experience that once years ago. So it's like that. That's where that example came from. Somebody was pretty sure that's what was happening. Yeah, that is, to use the technical term, batshit crazy. But most folks aren't. And just that is reassuring. So that if you. If you then look at it as well, the reason you're not able to, or not willing, or not inclined to do certain things is you're afraid. And it's normal to be afraid. It's not crazy. It's like, yeah, all of this stuff has a good basis. 

I don't know if this is more of a segue, and you can steer me back if you want, but one of my favorite things to talk with folks about is the classic problem, and it's almost always gendered in this way. Not always, but almost always, the classic problem of a woman who wants to do couples therapy. And the man doesn't. That is way more the norm than the exception, at least in my experience. 

I've had so many men initiate in their heterosexual relationship to come, but. Well, I'm not too. 

But. And again, and this may just be prejudicial on my part, could well be. I'm looking for it, but those guys who are the ones making the appointments, then I find out it's because she insisted that he do it. Why should she have to do all that? You know, that's basically what that story is about. So you may. You may have. 

Yeah, I don't know. “I think that there are some general stereotypes that are. I mean, to your point, this would make sense. I don't know what the current research or statistics are, but I remember that, I don't know if it was like 10 years ago, the primary reason for divorce was emotional intimacy, and it was women initiating divorce. So that kind of goes with what you're saying. Hasn't been fully my experience, but I could be the outlier. I don't know.” 

“Well, two things. I'm glad to hear that. First of all, yes. And that's why I'm saying, yeah, I'm probably looking for it. So I see it where I wouldn't necessarily have to be there. Do you know what I mean? I'm not seeing any sign of that, like, oh, yeah, it's one of those, you know. So that's what happens with stereotypes. I get that. But whatever it is, that phenomenon is very common that somebody, almost, in my experience, mostly women, are trying to get the guy in their life to try it. And the key, I think, to that, and I have a chapter in the book, actually, all about that, the key to that is to recognize” that for the 

That's the difference. 

And I tell a story that I got from an actual couple that I work with. I found it very moving where she had been trying, of course, she had succeeded because they were sitting in my office, right. So there they are in therapy. He's there willingly. She's not pointing a gun at him. He's there. And it came up in the conversation after a while, like, how did it happen that you're here? Because they had both said, yeah, he had been reluctant for years. She'd been trying for like five years. And so was. Well, what she said was, I realized, you know, I just got tired of beating my head against the wall. And I kept thinking, he doesn't care enough. Why does he not care enough? That's the. Often. 

“That's one of the top 10 reasons that women are always saying, he doesn't care enough, he's arrogant.” 

The way they interpret the lack of interest or the resistance. 

And of course, the guy plays into that because he'll often say things like, ” Well, you're the unhappy one. You go, yeah, I'm not. If you were. If you weren't so unhappy, I'd be fine. So you go get fixed. You know, basically is the message, which sounds pretty uncaring and certainly unempathic and all that kind of stuff. What happened in this particular case was that she said, wait a minute, I know he's not an uncaring guy. 

Right. 

And I even am. I'm sure he loves me. He acts as if he loves me. What's the deal here? She finally, instead of being, you know, being dismissive and, you know, insisting he's a bad person, which he knew he wasn't, she actually approached him with genuine curiosity, saying, what are you worried about? And heard that, and he said, ” Oh, my God, she's really asking. And because he never thought about it himself, we guys, again, to use another stereotype, but it's worth it, for what it's worth, we don't want to admit that we're terrified of something. Usually, I think more than women. Well, you could speak to that. Not to mansplain to the woman, but seems to me it's a guy. It's like, no, we don't want to admit, especially to our women, 

Of course we are. So when he actually opened up, it's like, well, what am I worried about? And then he was able to say some of the things that guys tend to worry about, and I claim, for very good reason, worry that we're going to go to couples therapy and break up. Yes, possibly because the therapist will say to the woman, or imply to the woman, you know, you're married to a jerk here, get rid of them. You'll be a lot happier. Because I've heard stories there. That's exactly what therapists sometimes say. Not all, obviously, but that happens. Or just in general, a therapist won't have a particular. Even if the therapist is male, the therapist will be more oriented to how women think than how men think. And broadly speaking. 

And it's a verbal process. Right. Which isn't technically stereotypically the favored mode of communicating, like sitting in a room talking.

Oh, my God, y'all women, you could talk Rings around us. Usually, you know, there are obvious exceptions like those of us in the field, but, you know, out there in the real world, it's like, oh, my God, that's female territory. Yeah. Understandably. It's, you know, I'm in awe of it sometimes, but it's like, oh, my God. It puts us, men, at a disadvantage. 

Yes. 

That's legitimate fear. And when she is able. And this is what happened with that couple, when she heard, ” Oh, my God, I'm. You know, she was able to say to him, ” You know, I'm worried about those things too, but I'm worried about whether we're going to be okay. And then he can hear it. He'd say, ” Oh, shit, it's scary, but, yeah, we better do it because I don't want to lose you. 

Yeah. 

And then it becomes an act of love as well. But scary sometimes to do that. 

But it requires incredible courage to get support from someone you've never met before and don't know how they're gonna facilitate. It's terrifying sometimes. 

Yeah. And

You don't know, to go to a therapist, you don't know at all. You don't know if they're gonna be any good. And they could go on. 

Yes, unfortunately. 

Yeah. 

Well, it's in any field; you go to an attorney, and they can be wonderful, or they cannot be so helpful. Right. There's any industry. You have a range of competencies. But I do think, even historically, I think the field is changing a lot more people are getting proactive and setting their. This relationship is key to success and engaging in these principles. But I think historically it used to be the beginning of the end. It's like you go to therapy, and then you hear about the divorce. Right.

Yes, exactly. 

So I can appreciate the association there. 

So that it sort of is one example of the more general theme we're touching on, that it's really scary to enter into these intimate conversations. 

Yeah. 

And so that. But that's the key. That's what you have to be willing to risk. And so I am always trying to convey to folks that I absolutely respect and appreciate that fear, and I know what it feels like. And the other thing I'm conveying, sort of in the background of all of this, and I'll sometimes be quite explicit about it, and it's something I've written about in all of my books, is that I use the word faith for it. And of course, that could be misleading because it sounds like religious faith. And I don't mean that. I mean much more generally the idea that says, yeah, of course, we're full of uncertainty, but this whole living business is meaningful anyway if we can find the meaning in it. Even when we're suffering. If we can find that, yeah, it's a meaningful struggle. 

That's what will get you through it. That's sort of the antidote to just freaking out and panicking entirely. 

Thank you. I was going to ask what you support people in being able to increase their ability to tolerate anxiety or discomfort. And it sounds like this is a principle, which is looking at the why, the meaning, or the purpose. 

Yeah, it's a mindset rather than. 

And as a mindset, it's interesting because it's something that, at least to some extent, is available for choice. You can choose it. You know, my go-to author on this is Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning, finding meaning in being in Auschwitz, you know, and pure evil. And there's no rhyme or reason to who lived and who died. Most people died. And the ones who lived, it's not because you can't say, well, the ones who had the right attitude lived. No, that's simply not true. And he recognized that. But even in their death, 

You know what I mean? That died struggling for meaning. The one thing they couldn't do was take away their humanity, even if they killed them. 

And that's a pretty extreme example, you know. 

But that helps, but it helps tolerate that. There's still an alignment for the meaning or the engagement with the struggle. Right. Because people can surrender, they can just not fight in some capacity. Right. And then coming back to an intimate relationship, I can say when I'm more focused on the outcomes, even the question you were referring to around how would you know that this is working? Or one of the questions I like to ask is if were finishing up, what would it look like? Similar. We're getting at similar things, but kind of paint a picture for me around what you would love? What would the goal be? And that can give guidance, tolerance, or can give orientation when feeling the stress, the activation, and the fear that can feel discombobulating. Yeah, that gives purpose and meaning, like you're saying. 

So it's almost just pound for pound, like I want the outcome more than the fear. 

Yeah, exactly.

It's going to be the outcome that you end up even wanting. Do you know what I mean? 

Yeah. 

That's very fluid. 

Correct. It might be better than you could ever imagine. It might be totally different. Yeah, yeah. 

Be careful what you ask for, you know, and you just, you simply. That's part of the uncertainty. But, you know, what I'm sort of trying to convey is that. Yeah, that's part of the beauty of life. Again, that's a feature, not a bug. It's like, yeah,

When I talk about faith, that's what I mean. I talk about faith as sort of the opposite of fundamentalism, the opposite of a dogmatic view that says, well, this is how things are. No, faith means recognizing the reality that we don't have a God's-eye view of the universe. We only know what we know, and we can only know what we know when we're knowing it. And there are all kinds of contradictory truths that are popping up that have their place. 

And so we're not going to be able to figure everything out perfectly. And that's to accept. That is part of that sense of faith. That's what I'm trying to convey, that I've often thought about that and I've said so occasionally. What's the main thing we as therapists can offer people? There are a lot of ways of answering that question. One of them is simply, well,

The way you learn that practice is by being around people who embody it. 

Yeah. Partner in believing. 

Yeah. And you don't. You know, maybe I'm too precious about this, but it isn't even about believing per se. It's more about just saying, well, it's worth the effort. And that's not an assertion of fact. Do you know what I mean? 

No. 

All of that is true. It's a choice. It's a value judgment choice. You know, I think about mindset. I think about Carol Dweck and the growth mindset and fixed mindset. 

Yes, yes. 

And I'm certainly implying. Yeah, you sort of have to have a growth mindset here to be able to recognize you're not stuck in even how you feel or even how you think you can learn stuff all the way through. And I would just note what people will often express when they can tolerate the anxiety, what they will often express when they get through to some other side is gratitude. Gratitude for the struggle. They'll say, ” Oh, my God, that was so painful. But look how much better. Look how much we've learned. Even if I split up, you know, look how much we've learned and look how much better off we are now. 

“And of course, the couples that stay together, which, hey, my romantic heart likes that one that likes that ending better, you know, they are so often so grateful and never had anybody say, hey, thanks for cheating, you know, appreciate that. You know, never heard that. I absolutely have heard people say, ” Thanks for precipitating that crisis, which clearly we needed. We didn't realize it, but look how much better we are now. All this stuff we didn't realize was happening, and now we can manage that. We're feeling good. So there's gratitude involved there. And I think that's a part and parcel of faith as well.” 

“Totally. I appreciate you bringing up the example of even as extreme as an affair or some type of betrayal that can be a catalyst for opening up a lot of the intimacy that you're referring to around the open sharing and the. I mean, obviously done safely, but it's talking about things that had not been talked about or explored. I've had many couples come when they're in the. In the heat of crisis, they're saying, we're ironically closer now with all the conversation, and we're actually having more sex than we have. Like, it's just. It's such an irony that. Like that. And no one would wish for that to be the catalyst.” 

Of course, I never say, ” Oh, here's your solution. Have an affair. Never! Bad plan. But yes, absolutely. The one about having more sex is fascinating, isn't it? 

Yes. 

It'll often be a situation where one or the other was just really reluctant to have sex. And then somebody cheats, and then all of a sudden they're all about it. And this is. I can't prove this, but it just feels like there's something really biological about that. There's something about how we, as primates, that's what we would do, you know, to hang onto our mate or something. But it is really fascinating how that happens. 

Yes, yes. And when we come back, tolerating the anxiety, sometimes crises force us to just be more in the moment because we can't control. Like it's. We're. It's beyond our scope. Our kind of world has shifted on its axis. So it's like we're. We're a little humbled by. I don't know what the protocol is for this. And thus we can be a little bit more present in the present, not so in our heads, trying to plan. It's just like, okay, breathe my feet on the ground. Like, sometimes when we're leveled to that. With that degree, we are forced to be more mindful and present. What do you think? 

Oh, yeah, absolutely. You know, I was thinking, as you said that about. And I guess I relate to this because it probably applies to me, you know, folks who tend to be. Who've got a lot of language about this and think about it and a lot of theory around it and stuff like that, you know, the likes of therapists often, and then get hit by something like that, and all of a sudden, oh, my God, we're just human beings here and we're struggling and we don't even understand why we're struggling so much. Because I thought I understood all this stuff. 

Oh, my gosh. 

Yeah. It ain't the cerebral part, and so that. It often has that effect, sort of. It's like a great equalizer. 

Oh, my gosh. Yes. It reminds me, I interviewed a woman who related to loss, and she. In college, I don't even know if it was her graduate program, but she was doing some practicum. She was studying grief and how to support people and were like, that have lost a significant other, loved one, and she lost her husband tragically. And she was so well equipped. She was just like. All of my training and experience, like, it was not helpful. 

Yeah, it's ironic. And, you could. I suppose we could say the very fact that we spend. You know, I'm thinking of myself. I spend so much time in my. In my head, although I think it's in my heart too. 

Yeah. 

You know, there's. It's not the same thing as experience. It just isn't, you know, just to get hit by something. I'm just. Funny. I was just remembering a moment. This was many years ago, when my father had died. The. A few months before. And I was in synagogue for the. It's called the Yizkor service, which is done several times a year. It's not just saying Kaddish, which I was doing too, but the Yizkor service. And I just was not prepared. Boom. I was sobbing. I came out of absolutely nowhere. I didn't. Wasn't thinking that. And it was one of those experiences. It's like, okay. I mean, and it didn't throw me for a loop. And everybody around me was very supportive. Of course, because you're in a Yizkor service, that's kind of what happens, you know. 

But it was really like, yeah, you can know about this stuff and not know about this stuff. That's not what it's about. It's coming from a whole different place. 

Yes. Well, thank you for sharing. Just the humanness of what we're negotiating with a relationship beyond just intimacy, just life and living, and the uncertainty and the risk that's involved with loving, and that there's a lot that we're going to experience that we can't predict and be fully prepared for. And coming back to the passion paradox, for someone listening who recognizes they perhaps have been avoiding some difficult conversations or just struggling. Is there a way in which you like to encourage people in doable ways or safe ways to start to implement more of this? Because ideally, we don't want to have an affair. Right. To start doing the work. 

Yeah. Bad plans. Definitely bad plan. I do point that out. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. There's a tendency I could get into and try not to, just, you know, Nike, you know, just do it, or Nancy Reagan, you know, what is it? Just say no or something? Just say yes. You know, I don't. It doesn't work that way. No. What I tend to think of is that what it requires is experience, which is what therapy sessions can be good for. And I never. I. I don't think I ever tell people. Don't talk about this in between sessions. On the contrary, I don't tell people what to do at all. If I can avoid it, I don't go there. But in terms of what we're offering in the session, it's an experience that says, okay, this was scary. 

It feels better now. That itself is the sort of thing that when you experience, it's like, oh, now I'm more inclined to take that risk. And that's what it takes, is sort of repeated examples. You know, what it reminds me of, actually, I did a lot of work earlier in my career helping people recover from trauma, trained in EMDR, and also in clinical hypnosis. And I did a lot of that stuff earlier in my career. And it's a similar phenomenon when a couple has been traumatized or the individuals in the couple have been traumatized. It's like, yeah, you want to avoid the triggers. The irony, of course, is that avoiding triggers doesn't help you. I mean, it's understandable. It's like, I see. 

It's a human protective strategy. Yes. 

It's humane, right? 

Yes. 

You know, it's the thing about trigger warnings. It's like, well, it's a humane thing to do. It doesn't help anybody. But, I mean, I get it. I don't take a position one way or the other. It's like, I get it. But, you know, if I'm working with somebody who's in that situation, what they need to learn to do is experience being reminded of it and not freak out. That's how your brain learns. And so it's the same thing for a couple to experience. Risking intimacy, risking that sense of honesty in a way that doesn't blow up in your face. Then when you get through that and say, ” Oh, okay, wow, that went. That was still scary, but it was better than I thought. That's what will encourage people to continue. Continue to do it. So, you know, I don't tell people. 

We'll just do that. But I will sometimes explain that very thing and explain. That's what we're doing here in the session. That's what we're trying to do. There are scary parts, but your brain can know. Okay, it's safe enough to go there. 

Yeah. It's like getting spotted. Right. For carrying something. And as you talk about embodiment, that when one can get the lived experience, there's a felt sense of like, oh, my gosh, I survived. And that's why I. This is a way better outcome than what I used to do, and I want to do more of this. It doesn't take away the anxiety, like the need to tolerate the anxiety. I remember when I first started the podcast and doing the work, this was like 2015. I don't know people. I felt like it was helpful for people to understand, even me, that it's been in psychology all of my college years, and I grew up with I statements and all the things, and personal growth, and have been practicing these principles. I still feel terrified. I still feel scared when I'm. 

Because you're not nuts. It's not because you are nuts, because you're not. That's the point. Yeah. That's it. You're feeling terrified in certain circumstances. You're not crazy. Right. Of course you do. And it is fascinating because you have the I statement. Thing. And I love to make fun of I statements. That's one of my making fun of. Because you can show every bit as much contempt from somebody with an I statement as you can with yeast. 

Yeah, no, I totally get it.

Yeah, that was the subject of my book. It's not about communication. You know that. It was all about that. It's like, yeah, you're already communicating effectively. The problem is what you're communicating. You're doing it very effectively. You don't need to learn how to be more effective. You need to really wonder why you're so pissed off. You know, why are you so contemptuous? What's going on there? If you were less so, you wouldn't have to worry about how you communicate. That's what you'd be communicating. Because you're already good at that. Unless you're on the spectrum, maybe it's different. 

Revealing more of the inside part. Right. Less of just the story or the narrative. Okay, so as we wind down here, any tip or step that you want to invite people to consider beyond what you've said, or maybe reiterating what you've said, for sparking more of this passion and intimacy? Is it this very thing of taking some risks and maybe getting support and being able, or is there anything else you'd like to add? 

Well, I mean, sort of building that, first of all, to understand it. I mean, it's not like I'm all about. It has to be cognitive first. But that bodily experience of saying, ” Oh, my God, this is. There's something else here I need to get curious about, which can calm you down right there. So that's kind of a first step. Which is what? You know, things like my books and video courses, which I'm sure I'll be touting in a moment, but that sort of stuff is. And good couples therapy sessions are about that. That's whatever somebody's school of thought is. It's often about that. It's about, yeah, let's look at this. Not panicked. Even though it's painful. And it's painful because you're not crazy, not because you are. You know what I mean? It's like, okay, let's look at this. That calms people down. 

And then they are more willing to risk it. So understanding that, yeah, there's your possibility for you, so to really. And again, I think it takes a bodily sense of that. It's like, oh, this can be. There's some hope here. There's something like that. You sort of need that to get going. Which, again, a good therapy session can do for folks, and that can set them on the road to say, okay, well maybe I can risk this. And then you see where it goes. 

Yes, wonderful. Well, you've already pointed to your book and the video courses. I know you have many books and lots to offer. What would you like to invite people to connect with if they're interested in learning more? 

Yeah, well, I especially, first of all, they can go to my website, which is simply brucechalmer.com if they go there. I just recently redid the whole website, so feel free to give me anybody, feel free to give me feedback on it, love the new website, or oh, it's kind of weird, or whatever. I'm interested in that. But when they go there, they will see, of course, that they can set up sessions with me if they want to. There's that I tell by telehealth. But also, what I've recently done is I have turned that same stuff we're talking about that I wrote about in the book into a video course. And it's a three-part video course, the first part of which is a lot about understanding the whole stability, intimacy thing. 

And actually, at the end of the first part, the last part of it's a painfully difficult section of it, the chapter of it, but it's how to know whether to call it quits or not. And so when you come out of that one, it's not like you have a definitive answer necessarily, but you have a good way of thinking about, okay, do I want to work in this relationship or do I have deal breakers here? And it's very much I have a biased approach, which is to say, no, if you're not sure it's a deal breaker, assume it's growing pains and work on it. Doesn't mean you'll end up together. Maybe you'll decide, but don't break up too soon, or you won't learn what you need to learn. So that's part one. Part two, I call learning the skills. 

That's where you work on that mindset I've been describing. And I have some very, I think, specific exercises to lead people there. And then part three is where you develop very specific action plans. It's like, how am I going to implement this stuff in my actual relationship? Bunches of different topic videos, many of which won't be relevant, but many of which will. If you're having struggles about whether we should have kids? If you're having struggles about money, if you're having struggles about sex, if you're having struggles about whatever, there are a bunch of specific things you can work on and develop action plans. So that's the video course, I think is I'm claiming it's good for people, whether or not you're in therapy or want to do therapy, because it will help you do better. Therapy will help you. Therapy helps you more. And the YouTube channel youtube.com/brucechalmer.

Certainly with me it will. I know that because it's the way I think with anybody pretty much. And so there's that. And then also some folks would just do it and say, well, maybe we don't need therapy. Maybe this is it. You know, maybe this is enough. So. Yes. 

And say the name of your book. 

Again, The Passion Paradox, when you feel miles apart and still love each other. 

Excellent. I will have the link to your website, which appears to allow access to your video course. I'll also put the link for your book, your most recent book, on today's Show Notes. Thank you so much for all that you've shared here today. 

Well, thanks for having me on. I really enjoyed it.