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Are you building walls—or are you setting boundaries? It's a question that goes to the heart of why so many relationships end up feeling distant or disconnected. In a world where emotional safety matters more than ever, knowing when you're protecting yourself versus shutting others out can make all the difference. Too often, our automatic defenses keep us from the kind of authentic intimacy and connection we deeply crave.

In this episode, listeners are guided through understanding the difference between healthy boundaries and protective walls, how early experiences shape these survival strategies, and what it takes to become more conscious and intentional in relating. Practical examples and heartfelt stories reveal how increased awareness and compassionate communication can help transform old protective patterns, paving the way for deeper connection and a more resilient love.

Kate King, MA, LPC, ATR-BC, is a licensed professional counselor and board-certified art therapist with nearly twenty years of experience helping individuals heal their inner wounds so they can positively contribute to the evolving collective. Her work incorporates a dynamic synergy of brain and nervous system science, psychological teachings, spiritual practices, and art therapeutic creative expression to provide a unique and effective approach to healing and growth, personally and relationally. King is also a professional artist, podcast host, creative entrepreneur, and multi-award-winning author.

Episode Highlights

05:15 Understanding protective walls vs. boundaries.

11:16 Impact of parenting on relationships.

14:44 Understanding nervous system activation in relationships.

17:35 Stages of change and contemplation.

20:55 Navigating change and inner growth.

25:35 Discussing attachment styles in relationships.

28:11 Early communication in a relationship.

32:16 Discussing emotional walls with mom.

35:33 Discussing intimacy and vulnerability.

38:39 Navigating personal relationships and stress.

41:32 Understanding boundaries vs. requests.

43:04 Setting personal boundaries.

51:40 The Radiant Life Project website.

Your Checklist of Actions to Take

• Reflect on Your Patterns: Take time to observe your own relationship habits, especially when you feel disconnected or defensive, and ask yourself if you are putting up walls or setting boundaries.
• Differentiate Boundaries and Walls: Regularly check if your limits are collaborative and flexible (boundaries) or rigid and isolating (walls), making adjustments as needed.
• Acknowledge Your Triggers: Identify early life experiences or stressors that might influence your current relational responses, and get curious about old protective strategies that may not serve you anymore.
• Communicate Openly: Share your patterns and needs with your partner, even if it feels vulnerable, to foster mutual understanding and support.
• Request Instead of Demand: Clearly articulate requests to your partner rather than ultimatums, and express how their behaviors impact you without blaming.
• Set Intentional Boundaries: Be explicit about what you need for your emotional safety and communicate how you will care for yourself if those needs aren’t respected, rather than focusing on controlling your partner's actions.
• Practice Titration: Take small, manageable risks in sharing more of yourself or softening boundaries as you build trust and safety in the relationship.
• Integrate and Process: After moments of growth or conflict, intentionally reflect and give your mind and body space to integrate new experiences so you can expand your relational capacity.

Mentioned

Mend or Move On (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

The Radiant Life Project (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

ERP 150: What To Do When Stuck In Self Sabotage

Integral Theory by Ken Wilber

Carol Gilligan's Theory of Moral Development

Shifting Criticism For Connected Communication (free guide)

Connect with Kate King

Website: theradiantlifeproject.com

Facebook: facebook.com/TheRadiantLifeProject

Instagram: instagram.com/theradiantlifeproject

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/theradiantlifeproject/ 

TikTok: tiktok.com/@theradiantlifeproject

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Kate, thank you for joining us. I'm looking forward to our conversation. 

Thank you. I've been looking forward to it too. Thanks for having me on your show. 

Yeah, I know we've been chatting a bit, and there are probably many directions we could go. And I think one of the things I was interested in is looking at one of the things you talk about is how creating walls and boundaries can actually be really helpful for a relationship, and that there's a protective strategy to that. “And I want to hear a little bit more about how you might see these walls, whether or not it's physically, emotionally, relationally, energetically, that can actually be beneficial to a relationship rather than just shutting people out, or how people know the difference there.” 

“So the way that I basically identify walls is that they are these protective mechanisms that we put in place to essentially create a barrier between ourselves and other people. When the boundaries aren't working right, it's like an indication that these sorts of gentle nudges and these offerings of like, this is where I end, and this is where you begin. This is what I'm willing to tolerate. This is what I'm willing to contribute. That's not being received, or those boundaries are being sort of plowed. And so walls get sort of constructed, oftentimes unconsciously, as sort of a last-ditch protective mechanism. That's like, you're important to me.” 

I want to keep this relationship, but I'm either keeping myself in or keeping you out to a much further degree, because the lack of safety here is so evident to my nervous system that we actually need more than just boundaries. 

Thank you for spelling that out. When you said it, I was like, of course. But I also think this can get complicated for some. So I want to ask about that in a moment, but I really appreciate just how you're saying this is an escalation of a boundary that basically is limiting the participation, but still maintaining some form of relationship. 

Yeah. And sometimes,

And so they can come to the place where they're like, I don't know if this can ever feel emotionally, physically, psychologically safe again. And I don't want to exist within walls. And so I know that, in most cases, we want to preserve our relationships if we can. And I also want to speak to the people who are out there who are like, I don't know, do I have to preserve this? And it's like, well, if you've put yourself within a labyrinth of walls and it's all about protection and it's all about safety, that's prob. 

Important to look at, and why do you feel like you have to keep every relationship that is either harming you or emotionally unsafe or psychologically damaging to the extent where you can't be your full, complete self because of these walls? Yeah, I just wanted to speak to that too. 

Yes. I mean, to that point, I have a client that I worked with, and his spouse is very adamant about boundaries, but tends not to participate in cooperative, collaborative negotiating. And he feels really stuck and has really gotten to a place over many years of recognizing. I'm looking for more emotional intimacy, responsiveness, engagement, particularly about the things that I'm feeling, thinking, needing, that she was having a hard time really responding to, as kind of this parallel living strategy. And I think there are reasons why she operates that way. But all that to say, he is ending and very sadly, like he's not happy about it, loves her and their family, but also is very much at a crossroads where I, like, cannot be in self-integrity moving forward because I'm not able to get these needs met that I've desperately tried in so many ways. 

So I do hear you that sometimes it takes us out of a relationship. 

Absolutely. And I think a lot of the time, 

And then people think, oh, I've just been having these boundaries, and they're collaborative, and they're porous. But then you actually take a closer look, and you realize, oh, these aren't boundaries, these are walls. Because they're not actually that collaborative. Right. They're more. They're isolating, they're separating, they're creating maybe ultimatums or extras. And that can be a really powerful moment for people where they get to choose. Do I really need this degree of protection, or is this potentially an indication that I'm moving through old protective strategies that are no longer current? Maybe I've grown to a place where I have better resources. I have better capacity. My tolerance has changed. My safety is different internally. 

And I don't think I need these walls that I used to need. So it can be sort of an invitation into the self as well. That can help with the intimacy and the relational bonding because you're no longer projecting old wounds into the current situation. 

I am so grateful that you're bringing this up, Kate, because this is one of the things I got excited about is I think I was telling you before we started recording, that people often look at boundaries in the context of people pleasing over accommodating. But we don't always think about boundaries for the people who tend to shut down or wall off. And I want to dig in here a little bit. So, just context from where I'm coming from, an attachment perspective, relational learning, and early years. Sometimes these walls are actually very adaptive. They're good moves that were necessary. And then fast forward. In an adult romantic relationship, perhaps we are resorting to those because it's more automatic. Whenever we feel any threat, we feel that rattle of some sort. 

The tendency from all the repetition of learning in those early years is to go inward or turn away. We might even call this some of the avoidant tendencies or strategies. And that might be more of the reflex. So you're saying that can be a place to get curious, look at, and question. Can you say a little more about one that might resonate more with that kind of experience? 

Yes. So our relationships, when we're really young, our primary relationships are usually with our parents and sometimes other close family members, sometimes maybe neighbors, early teachers, people who really make an impact. And sometimes you don't even remember the impact because it happens so young. But these earliest relationships are. They're like, molding a piece of clay. That's kind of how they create our relational blueprint. And we are learning from these earlier relationships even before we have the capacity to speak or to walk, like we are these sponges. And our brains are really underdeveloped when we're born. Unlike so many other species, we're so dependent that all we have are cues and energetic signals. And it's all about safety and protection, right? It's about survival because we're not born able to protect ourselves. 

So, based on cues like eye contact, voice tone, how attentive are you when I cry? How much do you take care of me when I fuss? What words do you use? These things that we don't often think about as adults, right? Sort of reading between the lines, really. Subtle nuances in a relationship. They encode us for the map of our relationships. Safe or not. What are, like, how much do I need relationships? What part do they play in life? And so this is very unconscious, and it's encoded into our nervous system and into the deepest parts of our ancient brain. And we tend to operate unconsciously based on what were taught. And there are no perfect parents. We all kind of get these moments where parents are exhausted, they've been up all night, maybe they're not at their best. 

And so this isn't to say that any of us have to be perfect parents or expect to have had perfect parents, but there is a kind of baseline of good enough parenting where it makes an impact that sets you up for healthy and positive relationships moving forward. And part of that is also how your parents model repair and how they come to you when they do kind of fall short or when they make mistakes. And that sets up your expectation for what conflict can feel like in relationships and how safe conflict is. So as we move through life, and suddenly it's not just mom and dad and siblings and teachers, but it's dating and friendships and community and groups. We're still operating off of that blueprint that was encoded into us before we even remember. And so often it's not. 

It's not really, like, healthy. It's adaptive in the way that. 

presented by those relationships. And so maybe we learn things like people pleasing or like fawning, which is sort of like the nervous system aspect of people pleasing, where if you are happy, then I am safe, and I will do whatever it takes to make you happy so that I can feel safe. Right. And that might mean self-abandonment, that might mean, you know, dissociation, so that I can give you what you need. And everyone has different degrees of these adaptive mechanisms. Sometimes it's the opposite. 

It's like, well, I need to get really big and scary to get my needs met, so I'm going to default to anger or aggression, or if I merge with you, like in a codependent state, that feels safe for me. Right. So these are just a few examples of ways that we can get so. 

Small that I'm not. I try to be invisible, so that I'm not gonna draw attention. 

Stay out of your way. Yeah, so these are all examples of what is encoded in our blueprint. And we are operating very unconsciously until we start to do the inner work around knowing ourselves on this level,

And so when we're kind of conscious about these unconscious aspects, then we open the portal to be able to change them and to heal them and to say, like, I'm not a needy baby anymore. Right. I think I get to decide for myself. I get to attune to people. As an adult in your 30s and beyond, your brain is fully developed. You have a lot of capacity that you didn't have as a child. 

And so that's when you get to notice, oh, maybe these adaptive mechanisms that probably saved my life back then, they don't really matter anymore because I can take care of myself, I can feed myself, I can choose who I connect with, I can resource for myself. So I can rewire a lot of this blueprint that was wired for me. 

Yes. Thank you for unpacking just some of how this all gets developed. “And one thing I would just add, in adult romantic relationships, we're going to get. Our nervous systems are going to get activated more than in any other type of relationship, typically because our nervous system sees our partner as a survival in that bonding.” And so it can be quite confusing for one that's like, Oh, but I'm functioning great, or I don't feel as threatened in all these other relationships. And then there's such activation in the romantic space that it can be quite confronting and confusing. And to your point about that, a lot of this you've said unconsciously many times, right? That a lot of this we may not be aware of in our thinking brain. So it's hard to orient and understand what's getting activated, what that's about. 

Yes, absolutely. And you may have a sense because there may be little signs where you're like, ” Why do I always attract the same partner? Right. I just had a session with someone yesterday, and it was all about why she is attracted to emotionally unavailable men. And her mother happened to be visiting because she's moving homes right now. And she, with that question in mind, was sort of attuning to her mother, and she's like, there it is, that's what it is. I have big feelings. And you say, ” Get over it, move on, you're fine. Right. And so she's taken that messaging and that belief system of, I'm too much, I have to tuck myself away into her romantic relationships. And she has now seen it in a pattern so many times that she's like, I think I'm the common denominator. 

This is, my son had a teacher who said, ” Is this an issue or an ish me? Right? Like who's. Who is this? And so, I always love that. And I was. So we're in session, and she's like, ” This is an ish me. I have to shine light on this now. Like, I'm getting awareness of this. This is, this is my thing. And, my belief system around working with the nervous system on these is when you become aware that you have a pattern that is your nervous system saying, I'm ready, we can do this layer. It's safe enough that you can see it. And I think it's important that we honor the nervous system when we work through layers. 

Because if we go down to something that we have like a sense of, but we're not really comfortable with, we can destabilize ourselves to the extent where it's not really productive. We're just having to piece ourselves back together and do a lot of damage control. But when someone is like, ” Wow, I really see this. I have a lot of awareness. I really understand it. That's my indication of like, yay, we're ready. Now we can dive into this. 

Yes, thank you for speaking to that. I. It's my experience that contemplation and even the question around how I am attracting, how I am committing, how I am participating in this? Just that question when one is starting to be, you know, when we look at. 

What's the stages of change, right? Like that, there's pre-contemplation, we don't even know that we're contemplating. And then there's contemplation. And that's often before preparation, like I'm going to be doing something. And so I think from an unconscious to conscious, just even that it feels like a bridge of that questioning to kind of start to open up that path. And I guess to your other point, this isn't so exact. I know in research it's very categorized. “But sometimes when we've had layers of trauma, or even when there's immediate stress in life, like our capacity or how we might be, let's say we do a level of work and we have our bearings, and then something really stressful emerges, we might feel something else activate. It feels very old, but it's another layer, or it's another depth to it. Do you want to comment on that?” 

“Yeah. This is what I like to call expansion and contraction. So just like a rubber band, you know, like we can expand a rubber band, but we can't expand it forever, or it will snap. So we have to sort of contract it back in, let it regain its shape. But over time, that rubber band will start to be able to stretch further because there's been kind of like, the allowance for it to continue to contract and expand. And that's how we are, too, in our inner work.” So, you know, we start kind of unaware before we've done any work. We're just like, I don't even know what that means, what introspection is, what self-reflection is. And maybe you have, I don't know, like a social studies teacher who's like, ” What's your ancestry? Where do you come from? 

Just a really innocent question, and suddenly you're reflecting, and suddenly you're like, oh, there's more than just me. So you've expanded a little bit, and then you kind of forget about it. You move on with your life. You contract back down to kind of where you were, but you never contract to this same tightness of where you were. You're suddenly, there's a little bit more give in your awareness. And so then you're offered the next opportunity. Maybe you're in your first romantic relationship. And you're learning more about, like, oh, this is like, give and take, and how do I be vulnerable in these. These sorts of safe-feeling experiences, I'm not sure how safe they are. So you're expanding again. You're doing something that feels kind of enlightening, maybe a little risky, but you feel okay with it. 

And then maybe there's a breakup, and you're like, oh, it was too vulnerable, right? That's a contraction where you're like, all right, but you're not contracting back to that same state again. So in that sense, there's like this continual evolving of expanding a little bit more and more and then contracting and recovering. And I see that when people move through layers, and especially layers they didn't anticipate, because sometimes we kind of know where our work is going. You're working with someone for a long time, or someone's in a marriage where they're like, yeah, this is our thing. We always have the same fight, or we always have the same issue. So it's not going to be surprising when you see another iteration of the same thing. Right. That's very different than having a sudden experience of like, well, we've always had the same issue. 

But then you went and did something totally different. And now I need to understand what that means for me. Right. That's a different level of expansion and contraction that can feel more uncomfortable. And so I like to introduce this to people so that they understand that the contraction can be that kind of, like, crunchy, uncomfortable feeling where it feels like you've been, like, slapped, and you're like, what just happened? Right. And you have to sort of go inward and be like, ” Am I okay? What are my resources? How do I meet this? Do I have the skill or the confidence? Do I need to ask for extra help? Right. 

That's all the kind of beautiful ingredients of the contraction, so that then, when you're like, I'm ready to emerge from this cave, I'm ready to have the hard conversations and do this work, you feel resourced for your next expansion? 

Yes. I couldn't agree with you more about just the developmental process. I mean, you mentioned parenting and children. We were talking about early life, the image of, like, a playground where a child might go off and play, and then they're like, oh, that was a little scary. And then they kind of run back to their parent, and they're like, just get the little cozy hug. And then they're like, okay, I think I'm ready to go out again. So it's this kind of exploring new territory that can grow us. Right. So when you were talking, I was also thinking about the expansion and contraction, this seeing, it kind of comes from Carol Gilligan and Ken Wilber's, like, stages of consciousness or developmental process of consciousness. 

And they kind of use the symbol of, like, a spiral going upward, and that everything that came before is a part of it, but that we still are going through this process of growth that I think is expansion and contraction. I want to get back to my other question, but I want to comment on one other thing. I also think the unconscious pattern of contraction and expansion shows up when we're experiencing a lot of goodness. We're on a vacation, and we're having more love, more sex, more of all the things that we're just so full of. And then, like, we can sometimes start to feel like, oh, it's that unconscious sabotage. This is more than I've ever known before. We're experiencing more love, more connection. And somehow our system is uncomfortable with that because it's new territory. 

And so we can start to either get into a fight, have an accident, or get sick. Like, there are ways in which we can bring the energy or the flow down to what is more comfortable, but that can also inhibit our growth. You're nodding. 

Yeah. Well, the word I'm thinking of is integration, right? Because every time we have a big growth spurt, it could be a positive feeling growth spurt, or a really challenging one. Right. Like moving through a difficult season with your partner and choosing to still commit and to be in that season together, that's a huge expansion. It doesn't feel great, but you're growing together. Right. And so there's the cognitive understanding of what's going on, and then there's sort of the somatic, visceral body experience of like, I'm nauseous or like, my digestion's off, or my heart beats really fast, I feel anxious. And then there's the experience where those come together, the mind and the body integrate the experience so that it doesn't feel so scary anymore. There's an understanding that extends beyond the cognitive understanding. 

And your body is like, all right, we're at a new place. 

Yes. And don't you think we can intentionally give room for that? Because you were saying earlier that if we resource, if we intentionally access, like, what will support me, like, in my example of the couple on a vacation, if one is starting to feel a little anxious or a little uncomfortable or a little agitated, that perhaps that could be a subtle cue to turn inwards to do a little bit more of that integration of like, oh, like, this feels really good. And also, it's starting to feel uncomfortable. How can I expand my capacity for more? Or what do I need to integrate and ground to really find soothing, settling, anchoring, whatever words we want to use there. But I think that somatic and giving intention to. We can support this process a little bit if we are aware. 

Totally. And I think

What do you know about them? So it's like, this is where attachment styles come in. So often we'll see someone with an anxious attachment who ends up with someone with an avoidant attachment, right? And it's like, that's a really dire, tough one. And because somebody's leaning in and the other one's pushing away. So if you know this about yourself and you have had kind of a common language with your partner where you can say, ” Hey, like, I'm in that anxious attachment place right now where this feels uncomfortable, and I know that you have these avoidant tendencies, and I feel myself like grasping and I feel you leaning away. 

I need it in this moment. Right. And then the other person might be like, okay, what's your need? And can I fill this for you? Or is this something that you need to fill for yourself? Right. So to have this knowledge, to be able to say, this is what's happening with me, and I think this is what's happening with you, and to just over communicate to the point where maybe you don't need to talk about all of that, but just in case it's helpful, like try, and then in that moment, you can say, look, I'm grasping, I'm chasing, I'm feeling scared. Would you just, like, hug me? Or would you just try to approach me with more warmth? And then that person might be like, “ Oh, sure, I can give a hug. Like, I feel a little triggered too. 

Like, I want to run away from you, but I can warm up in this moment and see how that feels. And that's the titrating, right? It's like putting your toe in the water and being like, ” Can we do a hug? Okay, like, maybe we're not gonna have sex tonight. Right? But, like, maybe there's a physical aspect that can feel connecting, that can bridge us higher to the point where we can reactivate sexual connection, or we both feel regulated again. 

Yes, I couldn't agree more. And I think sometimes that languaging might take a minute for couples to find, but I don't think it needs to be extensive communication. I mean, for some, it could just be simply, I want to work this out. I just need some time. Let's reconvene later tonight or tomorrow, that can be soothing enough to the one who's got a little bit more of that anxious tendency. To tolerate that. Different ways of trying to regulate. I remember for me, there was one time with my husband, and I was feeling some anxiety around wanting to resolve whatever conflict we were in. This was many, many years ago. And I could feel and locate inside myself, and I was aware that I was anxious, but I was like, also like, what would really help me tolerate this? 

And I was like, will you just remind me that you want to work this out at some point? And he's like, of course. Like, he was so able to give that to me, and that's all I needed to, like, feel able to tolerate the disconnect. And now, I mean, I don't know, 10 years later, like, I. I know that more implied, like, I don't have to have that explicit reminder, but then I did. 

Yes. And there's no shame in asking for that thing that you need. Sometimes it's so simple. Right. Sometimes it's just voicing the I experience. Right. Because in those moments, it's easy to be like, you're pulling away. You always do this. But to really say, I'm scared. I feel like. I feel like I'm losing you. And it's really terrifying, you know? So I liked what you said too, about needing space, and I'll come back. Talked about this tonight. I think the Gottmans talk a lot about this in their work with couples, how it's really important if you do take space to tell the other person when you're coming back. 

Yes. 

You know, like, I really need to regulate. I'm feeling overstimulated. I'm really upset. I do want to work this out with you. Is tonight okay? Or can be, you know, and then the anxious person might be like, okay, so this isn't just gonna, like, live in this limbo land forever. You're coming back to me, and I know when. So that's just one of those tools that none of us are really taught until we hear the Gottmans' talk or hear this interview. And suddenly you're like, yeah, I can do that. We can decide. And if you come tonight and you're not ready yet, then you still convene and you say, I'm not ready yet. Can we set our next time for tomorrow morning? 

Renegotiate? Yeah. 

You stay with it. Right. “So that there's always a point in time that you can say, ” This is when we're going to meet again. This is when we're going to try to resolve this.” 

“Yes. I love that. Thank you for just. I know that's been said here many times, but I just think it is so helpful because again, as you're saying, if we're in our automatic tendencies, it's easy just to. It's like living in a different paradigm.” Like, of course I'm going to want to step away. I don't want to say anything that's going to be hurtful, or I really want to protect our relationship. And so it's like, that's. That's obvious. But to the other person, it's like you're walking away. What does that mean? Right. Like, so to be able to kind of, as you're saying, bridge, to help tolerate. To be able to find another level in the process together. Okay. 

I feel like I want to ask again about the question I was asking earlier for the one who is in a romantic relationship, notices some of those avoidant tendencies that perhaps are unconscious or even has some awareness around. Like, I do contain a lot. I keep a lot of my inner world very close. And this is. I'm aware that it's hard for my partner, but I also need to protect myself. And to your point, there could be legitimate reasons that it's not safe. And so that is a good choice. And there are maybe these lives a little bit more on the spectrum. Maybe there are opportunities to take micro risks or safe risks. What is. 

Can you say a little bit more about what that process looks like, maybe going like, let's say somebody approaches an intimate relationship with kind of a walled-off, but then they're like, oh. Because I'm thinking of the reverse. Right. Walls to boundaries. Is that kind of how it works? 

It can be. It absolutely can be. 

and the wall that's there may or may not, especially in an early relationship, probably doesn't have anything to do with the partner. 

Right. 

It comes from somewhere else. And so even if you don't have that healed yet, if you're like, oh, it's mom again, it's gonna, like, when is it ever not gonna be about Mom? Right? I've had a lot of people who are like, ” Ugh, when do I ever like? And it's like, well, it takes as long as it takes. But if you know that this is a wall that's constructed because of mom, then you know that in this relationship, it doesn't necessarily apply. Right. And you may have found some kind of qualities in this relationship that are providing the emotional safety. Safety that mom didn't provide. And that's why you have balls with Mom, right? 

And so you might be in that moment of like, ooh, I see that this is an opportunity to not repeat the thing that I repeated there and there and there. Because this person has something different, Right? Like, this person doesn't escalate into anger as soon as I express emotions or shut me down as soon as I cry. Right? Oh, this is different. And sometimes different can be unfamiliar and scary. You could be like, yikes, I don't know what to do when someone says, ” You seem really upset. Tell me more. Or like, I'm here, and I'm not leaving. It sounds great. 

But, like, when you live it after having someone who shut you down so much, you're like, isn't this the point where you're supposed to shut me down? I know what to do in that situation, but I don't know what to do now that you're leaning in and providing availability. So I think communication there is really valuable, where you can say to this person, even if it's new. What's great about the climate that we're in right now is that there's so much acceptance of therapy right now in the world. 

Yes. 

Like everywhere on social media, there's pop psychology. So people are not that afraid of it. And it doesn't have that taboo quality that it had in previous generations, where it was like, something's wrong with you. Right. It's now it's like, you have your dentist, you have your primary physician, and you have your therapist. Like that's kind of how we take care of ourselves. And I love that as a therapist because it creates this safety collectively to be like, hey, this is something I'm aware of. I have this dynamic that was put in place by my mom. I can isolate, and I can wall myself off as a way of protection. I'd like to try something different with you because I feel safe with you. That feels a little scary, but also a little bit like an opening. 

Are you willing to do that with me? Right. Like you could say this on the second date. Yeah. 

Oh yeah. 

And really, this is emotional intelligence coming to the dinner table. And this person might be like, yikes, I don't know. And that's good information. Like, you want to know if somebody's not willing to do the inner work with you. But more than likely, that person's going to be like, dang, this attractiveness. Like, you are so aware and insightful. That's sexy. I like that about you. Right. You're not just unconsciously projecting, you're taking ownership. This accountability, this is mine, and I want to heal it. And to that other person, they're going to be like, I love that about you. Because an accountable person is so attractive. And then asking for co-creation of a new pattern and to collaborate on healing together is really why we end up in intimate relationships in the first place. So why not make it conscious? 

Why not be above deck with it? 

Yes, I want to dive into that a little more because that's so potent, and I love to have more language around the co-creative process of intimacy and how we get to enter into that with that ownership, that accountability, and how incredibly sexy that can be. And thank you for just acknowledging that, because I think sometimes when we bring it above deck. We think it's going to be when we're still grappling with it can feel like, oh, those. I mean, I'll just say for myself in the past, the times that I wanted or I was recognizing the opportunity to make visible something that was very kind of vulnerable and core primary emotion, kind of attachment need, and bringing it above deck, I was like, this is probably the last thing I want to say. It feels like the most unlovable thing. 

And yet that was the thing that really made connection more possible. And from there, myself taking ownership of that need and being self-responsible around how to support myself, but also being accessible to my partner, where if he was able and interested could show up, and we could meet there. Okay, I had a question. Okay. 

So I. 

It was more of a comment, just going backwards before we go there. The relationship, when you're talking about it in the early stages, one has the. That could be potentially one is aware, oh, I have this tendency, and to make that visible, that could be really beautiful to work with explicitly and set their relationship up with more awareness and how they negotiate consciously. And I guess I'm also thinking that in relationship perhaps when the life events can be really stressful like you said, a season and want to seek comfort in their tendency that there's a compassionate voice that I'm hearing you speak to that we might be able to hold even though we're like, oh, we're in that place again where I'm trying to pursue you or seek you and your distancing. 

But can you speak to maybe a stressful season and how we might be able to approach that, knowing these tendencies might be a part of the scenario? 

Yes. And you know, I think this can happen in friendships too. Right. This can happen with family. Like so, this is one of those connections that is a connection, and the expectation that the

That's what sets so many people up for disappointment because we are evolving constantly. Right. Even if somebody's not actively doing therapeutic work, the world is like it's giving us all of these projections to bounce off of and create meaning and divert ourselves and learn. And so we are constantly changing. And so there needs to be a little bit of give around. I'm willing to hold my seat even if it makes me uncomfortable as I watch you navigate life and understand that I am also navigating life. And like a Venn diagram, we are our own people. 

We have this little sweet overlap where we're choosing to have a relationship. But there's a lot that happens in life that isn't really about our relationship, though it may bleed in, right? Because maybe you meet like the stress of the world right now. There's a lot of stress on the social and political levels, right? So like, of course, that's going to bleed into your primary relationship if you're feeling it, especially if your relationship is a really safe place. And that doesn't mean that your partner knows what to do with it. Right? Like those of us who are trained psychotherapists, we have to actually, I don't know about you, but I have to work not to bring that into my family. My 12-year-old likes to roll his eyes, and he's like, ” This is therapeutic. Stop. That's his word. He's just like, stop. 

Just, just be my mom, right? And I have to be like, right. I don't need to be in this like part, this therapist part with me. With you in this moment. And that's where the compassion comes in, that's where the giving comes in. Like, you want to be kind of like a stretchy pair of jeans, where it's like, there is a lot of forgiveness here. There is a lot of patience here. And I mean, for me, patience is the hardest thing in the world. I don't have it, and I work on it a lot. And that might be the thing that I communicate, whether it's with my 12-year-old or with my husband, where I'm like, this is me feeling like really impatient. I get it. That's on me, and I'm going to do that work. 

And at the same time, this behavior or this aspect that you're bringing into the relationship is very challenging for me to hold. I don't know what you're going to do about that like that. I'm going to let that be yours. The aspect here that's mine is like, I'm going to try to increase my threshold for holding space for this and understanding that this is like a season. And my ask of you is, please let me know if the way I'm showing up is unproductive, hurtful, or not benefiting your process. Right. Because that could be an opportunity for them to be like, I actually need you to lean in here or I kind of need you to not ask me about this for a while or Right. Like, could you lean on your friends right now instead of adding more to my plate? Right. That might be an ask that I wouldn't be aware of unless they communicated it. 

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Well, I know we don't have a ton of time, so I want to spend a little bit more on the conscious creation. You talk about the difference between a request and a boundary, and you've talked about co-creating. Tell us a little bit more about what you're thinking here. 

Yes. So I find that there's a lot of misunderstanding about boundaries because of the pop psychology world and how the world, the word, is like thrown around like crazy. So it feels important to just create a distinction between a boundary and a request.

It expresses where your edge is and is communication for them about what you will do when your edge is crossed. So it might sound something like, when you yell at me like this, I'm going to leave the room, or I'm going to say, I love you, but I don't want to do this with you. That's where, that's where my boundary is. It's not saying don't yell at me. That's a request, Right? 

A request is when you ask something of someone; it requires something of them. It does communicate a need, but it's asking them to do or not do something. Right? So it might be like, don't yell at me, versus when you yell at me, I'm gonna do this and this. So that feels really important because people are constantly like, well, I set the boundary. I told them what I needed. And it's like, no, you didn't. You made a request. And that's beautiful. But the boundary is also like, when do you pull back or put up your wall? Right? Like, hey, babe, I know you don't like my wall. However, when you come at me with aggression, these walls are pretty automatic. Like, I'm going to put them up for protection. Do with it what you want. 

Well, and I think what I'm hearing you say is there can be some preparation work, being able to identify where my edge, my limits are, and how I can show up integrity for that need or that limit that boundary and do it intentionally. So sometimes, like, if somebody's coming at me aggressively, my instinct is to get defensive and want to kind of engage with them. But if I know ahead of time, oh, I'm not doing this, then I can hold a little more ground and say, ” What you're saying is really important to me. I do want to hear you, and I am losing my ability to hear you. When it gets escalated. So I'm gonna pause, and you know, as you said, leave or, and leave the conversation in some form or fashion, and we can try again. Right. 

Like I'm, I love you. I'm not rejecting you. I just, I'm not gonna do this. And I'm clear about that. So it's almost like that preparation work is something that I can rest on. Like, I don't feel so anxious, like kind of like, oh, what am I doing? Or what's happening? It's more like I already know, and I have the plan. 

I feel like the preparation needs to happen when you're not in an escalated state. Right. Because if you're really activated, you're probably operating either from unconscious patterns or you're just doing the best you can with what you know, in that you're hanging on. Right. Trying not to create damage, trying not to say something that you can't take back. Right. And afterwards, when you calm down or days later when you're having coffee together, you just say, Hey, this experience that we just had, I was really escalated, and I didn't know what I needed then, but I know now a little bit more because I'm regulated. And when you came at me like that, I defaulted into this role. And so I would like to let you know what I'm going to try to do next time. 

Next time, I'll meet you with a loving response that says, “I don't want to do this right now.” Right, let's do this when we're calm. And that can be really helpful because you're both regulated. Maybe you're more open, you're more willing to flex with each other and do the dance of relationships. And you're not face-to-face with the thing that was triggering in the moment. But you have hindsight, which gave you wisdom about it. 

Yes, and I love the communication about it because it can front load sometimes when people have been together for a period of time, long time, maybe even those patterns and dynamics are so well grooved that it's like you're changing the rules a little bit. Like you always let me yell, like, why are you leaving? 

Right. 

So that can help around, like I'm going to be doing some things differently, totally. 

Because when you grow, you disrupt the relationship's homeostasis. And it might be for the best in the big picture, like

But the difference in it is going to be like, whoa, I need to relearn how to relate to you if you're going to show up in different ways, because that might ask different things of me, or I might not be able to get away with the things that I used to be able to bypass. Right. And that's what long relationships teach us. How to pivot. 

Yes, yes, yes. And then for interested people, I think most of what you're talking about is where people will. Will likely want to spend more time. But it does seem helpful, given that we're talking about walls, boundaries, and requests. What it can look like when people are consciously aware of their limits, their needs, and they are consciously requesting and negotiating a relationship. 

Yeah. Can you say more about what your question is in there? 

So, like, if I'm setting a boundary, I'm recognizing I've reached a limit, or I need to do something to take care of myself. So you had said earlier that walls start to emerge when boundaries aren't working. And I feel like sometimes boundaries are really helpful when the requests aren't working. 

Right. 

So I'm thinking, can we talk a little bit before we transition out here, around what that dynamic looks like when people are in that safe space of being able to request things of one another? And probably an example would be helpful, but I mean, we can all imagine. But does anything come to mind, or do you want me to be? Give you something? 

No, I think that's great. Yeah. So basically, the step down from walls to boundaries to requests, that indicates that the intimacy is safe. Right. The more you have to step up toward walls, the more it indicates that, like, ooh, we're not safe, and I'm protecting. So if you feel like you're in a place where you can make requests and they can be received well, it's an indication that you're in a really emotionally open, safe, and secure relationship. And it doesn't mean that you won't have boundaries. I think 

because if I don't know where your boundaries are, then how am I supposed to respect you? Right. So often it's very great to say, where are your edges around this? 

Yes. 

How far can I push here before you start to shut down and pull away? Because I don't want to do something here that pushes you away just because I don't know where your edges are. So I say that to say, like, I think 

And they can be expressed in requests. Right. When one is aware that maybe they don't have. But I don't. I think it is much more dynamic. I think we're all kind of learning and responding to one another. And I will say that the way I posed my question is that the requests and that process can seem really productive. But I also, in my experience, it feels sometimes really hard if we have different needs and we're requesting something. Sometimes it seems in opposition, and it's hard to stay in the querying of like, how can we both get some of what we want? Or we both have a request. Like, sometimes that's not easy to get to work. 

Well, and sometimes, yeah, sometimes they come together where you're like, I'm going to do this. This isn't working for me. And if you're willing to make a shift or if you're curious about how you can show up differently, that might impact me in a positive way. Here's my request, right? So, like an example might be like when somebody's dating and they're like getting pinged with texts and calls all the time, right? And they're to the point where they're like putting up boundaries and walls. They're just like, it's too much. But the other person doesn't necessarily know that. Or they're grasping. The wall would literally just be like ghosting, not showing up, not responding. And that doesn't give the other person very much information. It just feels. 

Rejecting boundaries might be a text back that says, ” Hey, you know, it's really good to hear from you. I love how excited you are about this. This. I. I'm not really. Texting isn't my medium. So I just want you to know, like, if I don't text you back right away, it's because I'm doing my own thing and I'll get back to you when I can. 

Or I'm at work from 9 to whenever, and I don't answer my phone. Like, I have my phone on airplane mode almost all day. Like, that's. 

Yeah, it's not a rejection of you; it's an edge for me. And then a request could instead be like I get really overstimulated with the constant notifications on my phone. Would you mind not texting me until the day is over, please? Like, I would really appreciate that. 

Or don't double text, just give me one, right? 

And then they can decide if they're gonna honor your request or not. That's the piece about free will in these relationships. They might be like, I have poor impulse control. I am not in authority right now of myself. I can't, I don't know, I'll do my best versus a person who's like, wow, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for letting me know. I won't double-text anymore, you know, and so then you're learning about each other. Yeah. And that's important too. Like, even if the information isn't ideal, even if it pushes you away or it, you know, teaches you something you don't love, it's still information, and that's valuable. 

In my mind, this is the process of developing intimacy. We have this so-called curriculum of learning how to work together and developing intimacy. And sometimes it's going to feel really tricky, and sometimes it's not going to work, but this is the process of evolving as a couple. 

Okay, thank you, Kate, so much that you've shared is so helpful and valuable. And I know people are going to want to learn more about what you're up to. And would you share how people can connect with you? 

Yes. So my hub is theradiantlifeproject.com, it's my website. That's where I put conversations like this, events, and all my books. I have a book called The Radiant Life Project that's sort of like a masterclass of self-healing and inner work. So if you're kind of diving into your personal work, The Radiant Life Project would be a really good book. My new book is called Mend or Move On. This is a guide to healing or leaving toxic relationships. If you're kind of at that teeter totter, romantically, platonically, or familially. This is kind of for the gamut of relationships. If you're kind of in that place where you're like, this isn't okay, but I don't know what to do about it. Mend or Move On could be a really good support for you. 

And you can get these books @theradiantlifeproject.com or Amazon or Barnes and Noble or your local bookstore, wherever you get things. And, yeah, that's kind of where I'm at right now. My social media is Instagram instagram.com/theradiantlifeproject, and also Facebook facebook.com/TheRadiantLifeProject.

Wonderful. I'll make sure to have the link to your website as well as your books on today's show notes. Thank you so much for everything you've shared and just all that you're doing to help people understand these concepts and principles. 

Thank you. I really enjoyed our conversation, and it was fun to be on your show.