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Money can be the silent partner in every relationship—often creating tension, stress, and confusion that can easily escalate into conflict. Beneath the numbers, every dollar spent or saved carries deeper questions about happiness, security, and the life we’re working so hard to build together. How can couples bridge the gap between financial security and true personal fulfillment, especially when their instincts and money habits seem worlds apart?

In this episode, listeners are guided through the core foundations of financial well-being and shown how to transform money conversations from battlegrounds into opportunities for connection. The discussion offers practical strategies for navigating differing money personalities, building trust and transparency, and creating shared goals. Listeners will learn why understanding the “why” behind spending habits matters as much as the “how” of budgeting, and how aligning values can lead to both financial security and genuine happiness in a partnership.

Lori Atwood is the founder and CEO of Fearless Finance and a CFP® professional. Lori created Fearless Finance to make expert, fiduciary, hourly financial planning accessible to everyone with no sales, no minimums, and no judgment. Lori’s been in finance for over 25 years, starting in investment banking, asset management, and private equity before starting Fearless Finance in 2016.

Episode Highlights

05:03 Understanding deep-rooted money habits in relationships.

08:58 Merging finances: Transparency, trust, and relationship satisfaction.

11:04 The link between personal happiness and financial well-being.

14:19 Identifying the root causes behind spending and financial stress.

18:28 Exploring life changes: Navigating career shifts and financial decisions.

20:34 Overcoming financial paralysis: Bringing clarity to big decisions.

23:43 The five financial foundations every couple needs.

27:45 Negotiating financial priorities and the complexity of fairness.

30:51 Making deliberate financial choices and the power of data.

34:57 Empathy, non-judgment, and the importance of transparency.

36:53 Personalizing savings goals and uncovering hidden financial motivations.

41:35 Divorce, separation, and preparing for major financial transitions.

45:11 Individual happiness, financial security, and taking informed action.

Your Checklist of Actions to Take

• Spend Less Than You Earn: Track your monthly income and expenses to ensure you consistently spend less than you bring in.
• Set Up an Oopsie Fund: Establish a cash reserve of $3,000–$5,000 in a separate account to cover unexpected expenses like car repairs or emergency travel.
• Build an Emergency Fund: Save three to six months’ worth of living expenses in a high-yield savings or money market account to protect against major disruptions like job loss or illness.
• Contribute to Retirement: Allocate at least 15% of your pre-tax income to retirement accounts, using employer matches and Roth or traditional IRAs if available.
• Manage Consumer Debt: Pay off or create a plan to reduce unsecured debt, such as credit cards and personal loans, before setting other financial goals.
• Merge Finances for Transparency: If you’re in a committed partnership, consider merging accounts to enhance trust, transparency, and shared financial management.
• Communicate Financial Priorities: Regularly discuss values, priorities, and spending plans with your partner to proactively address differences and prevent misunderstandings.
• Seek Fiduciary Financial Advice: Get unbiased financial guidance from fee-only, fiduciary advisors whose costs are transparent and posted upfront.

Mentioned

Common Cents: Bank Account Structure and Couples’ Relationship Dynamics (Journal of Consumer Research) (article)

Shifting Criticism For Connected Communication (free guide)

Connect with Lori Atwood

Website: fearlessfinance.com

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Episode Transcript

Lori, thank you for joining us. I'm excited about our conversation. 

Thank you for having me. 

Yeah. And we are going to be looking at some of the conflicting needs as it relates to financial security and happiness in a relationship, and also just individual happiness and how that can also impact. Okay, where would you like to start about the kind of tensions here? I mean, “one of the questions I had around, when you think about relationship and money and happiness, this, what do most people get wrong? But wherever you want to start.” 

“Well, I think we can start there for sure. What do people get wrong? So the first thing I would say is when you're in a partnership, in a relationship, and when I say that, I mean you're in a committed relationship where you're sharing your life and therefore sharing your finances.” So, it's a different story if you're not quite there yet. And that's fabulous, but it's different. So if you are in that position where you are sharing your finances, I like people to remember that no matter what you are sort of trying in therapy or in your own work or whatever to change your money, 

And so with couples, there could easily be big differences. And some of them are due to background and experiences and possibly trauma, but some of it is just who you are. I'm frugal because my grandmother was frugal, and I'm so much like her, you know, so 

Because what I often see is like, I'll have a saver in the household and a spender. And what happens is the spender and the hoarder become more of who they are, and to try to compensate and bring the household back to regression to the mean. Right? 

And what we have is two people further out on the extremes of both of those things as a way to try and compensate instead of working together and be like, Hey, I know you're like X, and I'm like Y, and what can we do? And so in my house, my husband doesn't part with a dollar easily, and he needs to have a certain amount of cash in an account to even sleep at night. And so I respect that we agreed. We discussed it. Okay, let's have that much. He's comfortable, and then he doesn't ask me questions about how I'm investing the rest of it. 

Well, one, because I do this for a living, and two, because we've discussed it and we've agreed, and I've done what I need to do to get him comfortable, and now he can get me comfortable by allowing me to invest and take on that risk. So that's the first thing I would say. 

Yes. And I just want to make sure I'm tracking correctly. “It sounds like you're saying when couples are speaking or operating differently in their financial way, they can get very polarized. It's almost like you're saying they compensate.” 

“But also more extreme.”

“More extreme. And I've also experienced this, my relationship, my husband will be like, well, I have to do it because I'm worried you won't.” Or like that, you. 

Yeah. 

But I constantly feel like I'm trying to remind him that we're. If we hold both of our values, like I tend to like to purchase things that are a little bit higher quality because I had a friend who was like. And I was like, that's so right. She was saying, well, I'm. I can't afford to buy cheap stuff because you have to replace it all the time. 

So I replace it all the time. It's terrible for the environment, but, yeah. 

Wrecked. Yes. So philosophically, I tend to err on that side, but he tends to be a bit more conservative about spending. So I try to encourage and remind him that I'm holding his priority of budget and being mindful, about being resourceful. And that basically we can hold both values together. Right. But it seems like it requires a lot of trust. It sounds like in your. What you're sharing about your husband, like, he trusts you, and you have his back around the particular amount that he needs. 

“So you trust each other.” 

Then you can relax a little. 

You can relax a little. It's about. Well, I mean, I'm telling you this. It's about trust and transparency, and

And there's academic proof of this now. I mean, I just came across. Oh, my goodness. Her last name is Olson, and his last name, I think, is Finkel. The two professors who did this study on people, couples, heterosexual couples who merged their accounts, and those who didn't. And they tested happiness and found that couples who merged accounts were much happier for much longer than those who kept separate accounts. Now, I can tell you why, from a financial standpoint. That's right, that I utterly would have predicted that. 

But people don't always believe me, because I always say 

Not only can you see better what's going on and what's coming out, but you don't have a bunch of little accounts that all have 200 bucks in them, so there's no cash seepage, which is what I call that. But three, if you are not merged, then you have to contribute in some way or fashion. And that means you're being valued based on what you earn. And that's wrong in a marriage. 

And so as a result, if you are, well, I earn a third of what he earns. I'm only going to do the. Not only is that kind of an accounting nightmare, but if something happens to one of your jobs, does that person stop eating and turning on lights? No, of course not. You're one entity, one household, one entity. Boom. It's all shared. 

I love how clear you are. Some people might say, ” Oh, there are different people who function differently. And I have seen research, and I've heard people cite findings on couples' satisfaction. It does tend to not only financially, as you're describing, offer the transparency and the opportunity for communication and the more curriculum, if you will, to work together. But I think the symbolism of we are in this together, we are sharing, there are a lot of psychological aspects of it as well. 

Okay, so you're really recognizing that if we can learn about each other, we have a greater ability to work together. And then if we have more trust and transparency and do join finances, then we have the opportunity to do that. 

Less friction. 

Less friction. Okay, so how do you see happiness fitting in here? 

Because. Yeah, this is a great question. So the dirty little secret of personal finance, at least in my opinion, having done this for this many years and thousands of households, et cetera, is that 

I don't mean the happiness you get when you eat a really yummy cupcake. I mean your long-term contentment. Because if you're unhappy with your relationship, your house, your job, your relationship to your mother, your body, guess what's going to pay your finances? We're either self-medicating, or we're needing a lot of stability and scaffolding, or we're just buying things. After all, we think we deserve it because we're having such a hard time in this other area of life. So get the happiness. Right. If you don't like your job, get rid of it. 

And if you want to do less, do something else, you're a big lawyer, and all you wanted to do ever in your life was be a beekeeper. I'm going to try to get you to the place where you can be a beekeeper. Because the other thing that I always say to people is that

But I'm going to prescribe it. 

Yeah. I'm kind of hearing that A.K.A unhappy people spend more money. 

Oh my gosh, yes. They spend more money typically in full discretionary areas because what they're trying to do is make themselves feel they're trying to get that little hit of happiness their person gets from a cupcake or whatever. I'm using that as a metaphor that a person gets from a pleasure. 

The dopamine, whatever we, whether or not. 

It's shopping, a pair of shoes, cupcakes, yet they're trying to get that to counterbalance whatever that other unhappiness is. And you know, you see couples where they're on the brink, and they're not doing very well for whatever the reasons are, and they buy a new car, and suddenly they're okay for a few months, and then that car is no longer all that interesting. And it's the same with stereo. People don't really have stereos anymore, but you know what I mean, larger purchases. And that's not where the issue is. And so 

Yeah. 

So what you need to do is get yourself in a place where you're content, and you'll see immediately how much less you spend. 

Okay. So this conversely would be happy people have a bit more capacity to be intentional and aligned with their spending, and maybe spend less. 

Yeah, I think that's true. 

Okay, so this is, I mean, we could unpack this for the whole interview. That there's a lot of opportunity. I'm sure this gets, I mean, are you, how do you help people understand what makes them Happy? Is this doing a values exercise, or doing a vision exercise? Like,. 

Much of that is over my pay grade. 

Yeah. 

But when people come to see me, it can become very clear very quickly what's going on. And typically it's either some sort of real problem with the job, or sometimes it's a problem with the spouse or the partner. Other times, there are other things, body image, and other things. Whatever it is, and I can usually hear it, comes out pretty quickly. And so if it's something like, you know, we're at each other's throats because we're living in three rooms and we have four kids, I'm going to say, what can we do? How much would a bigger apartment or a bigger house be? Let's do the math and see if we can get you out of where you're living or do the renovation that you want to do that's going to allow you to have a little, like, breathing room. Right. 

And so I'm going to try and do that. And typically, the source of the unhappiness is right on display. 

Got it. 

If you're watching for it, are you? 

Referring out on a lot? I mean, that can be a difficult pill to swallow on the receiving end. 

I don't. Yeah. I'll just say a lot of times I'll say, if you're not in counseling, you may want to consider it. And that's so like, if you identify. 

Somebody's got a body image thing, you will directly call that out and say, ” It looks like it sounds like. 

And I'm wondering if I won't diagnose anything. 

No, I'm not diagnosed. But when you assess that, you're saying, I can see really quickly what's driving. 

Some of the spending you may want. Yes. So if I see an addiction or something of that nature, I'll say, ” You may want to explore this with a professional. 

Yeah. 

Because I can see this. I can see this in your finances. You may want to explore this with another professional. So. Yeah, I have said that. 

Okay. Because it kind of seems like a yes. Right, well, I'm just asking because you're saying if these are the motivators, they're not going to go away, like the spending plan, the budget, or the different tools. Okay. 

And they're not financial problems. 

Got it. 

They're not. 

But these stressors have a huge impact on decision making sense of self. That's right. Okay. And I hate to say it, but it's, you know, living in the modern world, we're both in the United States. There's a lot of messaging and marketing that is appealing to are the things that we want in the way of products and services. So it's very compelling to kind of go down that path that will help in happiness. 

It's super compelling. And it is like a dopamine thing with social media, et cetera. And I'm definitely not knowledgeable about that kind of thing. But the fear of missing out and the you only live once. Those narratives, they come up a lot in personal finance. And it can make it hard if one of the partners is more of a saver and the other partner is more of a you only live once. And so there are different tactics we can take to help with those issues. But sometimes that couple will need another professional to help and be fair. 

And also, you're really helping people understand this is not something to be changed. They're not going to you to change their partner. Yeah, right, exactly. You said this is often in our DNA. It's how we orient. It's part of our money relationship. Some of that might be that there might be some opportunity for adjustment. But for the most part, there's some pretty. 

It's pretty ingrained.

Yes. Okay. “So you mentioned a couple of times around unhappiness or if they're in a job that they hate. When it comes to the relational dynamics, sometimes this can have a huge impact. Like if or in a partner's job that they do not like, but they feel like, oh, this provides health benefits or my income and mortgage, or all the things. Do you want to speak to that scenario?” 

“Yeah, I mean that's where I typically. If they're in my office and they're saying, I'm really just, I dislike my job, then we'll run scenarios with that person doing a different job, and what are the sacrifices that have to be made for the whole family, and are you willing to do them? And I can show people the mathematics. The psychology part is above my pay grade. But I can say, if you take this job that generates less in salary, this is how it's going to affect your cash flow. Are you willing to take that? Is it if the whole household or the adults in the household are saying, yeah, let's make that transition because it's going to make you happier. That's great. I mean, often my job is to say, yes, you can do this if you choose to.” 

Yes. 

It's almost like what? 

Yes, you're giving people the possibility when they might be really stuck in fear, and just like, no, I can't. I can't. I can't even. Like, the stakes are too high, so they don't even explore. And you're giving them, well, here's. Let's look at some versions. 

Here's what look. 

Yeah. And if. Oh, we don't do this. But that's maybe not high ranking on what's most important. And your happiness is, like, you're helping them see how to achieve. That could be incredibly motivating. 

I agree. And that's what I want. You know, that's what we do, you know, we're trying to get it. What is the. The real goal? Sometimes the goal is, well, we want to renovate our basement, and that's an easy thing to deal with. Right. But sometimes the goal's deeper, more embedded, and it's like, oh, you know, it would be great to renovate the basement because maybe we could rent it out. And if we rent it out, then I don't have to work as many hours, and I can do this other thing. And now I'm starting to get to know really what's going on for you. 

Do you ever find that when you meet with a couple, they're not talking about this because they're afraid, or that it just. It feels too paralyzing? 

Yes. And sometimes they, I mean, I can't speak for what the motivations are for people, but sometimes it seems like they don't know where to start. Like they don't know what questions to ask, and they can't. I do this day in and day out, so I know exactly what I'm visualizing, you know, and so they can't, especially if they're not numbers people. They can't visualize what I'm saying. I had a client just a few weeks ago, and, you know, they want to do this renovation, and they just got some bad news about their health, and they're like, ” Can we still do this? And I'm like, yeah, I think you can, and I'm going to show you mathematically how. But they were paralyzed. Because they don't know where to start to figure out if they can. They don't even know if it's the right course question. And so I'm arm's length from the emotions. And so I can come in and say, no, you shouldn't do that, or, yeah, I think you can absolutely do that. 

How lovely to have someone in your corner who can help lay out the financial scenarios of what different options would be. I mean, so many people would. 

That's right. 

I mean, it's not like a quite a crystal ball, but like, there's some information around what that version could look like, what that landscape would be. 

It's funny because my daughter, she's now 18, but when she was little, and I was doing this, she's like, people ask me what you do, and I don't really understand what you do. And I said, well, it's like when I brush your hair, and I comb it, and I detangle it. That's what I do for people's finances. I love that she has long hair. She's always had long hair. And that's what I do. That's what I see us as, making it clear, detangling it. Taking the things that don't matter out, keeping the things that do matter in, and showing you in a mirror. 

Yeah. 

What it looks like. 

Yes. 

And then you get to make decisions. 

Yes. Okay. So when you are working with a couple that perhaps have conflicting. I mean, so in this scenario, we're saying, oh, one partner's unhappy, and they both want to support the partner that's unhappy to be happier. They just don't know how. Other times, you might have a couple who are in conflict about what to prioritize. 

Oh, yes. 

Okay. Can you talk about that a bit? 

It does happen. So the first thing is, you know, I need to make sure that they're set on the five foundational elements, because to me, I don't want you to have any goals unless you're set on that. 

Okay. 

And so a lot of times I can take it back to that and be like, look, you guys aren't quite set on that, so we don't even need to have this conversation yet. Right. There's no boat to buy until I have my emergency fund, so let's get on it. Right. 

Is that one of the five? 

Not the boat, but the emergency fund. 

That's what I meant exactly. 

Yeah. Well, let me. Shall I enumerate? 

Yes, please. 

Okay. So 

And you'll find that if you're doing that in a consistent way, a lot of the money stress will go down. “Two” is that you have, depending on the size of your household and where you live, “Three” to $5,000 set aside in an account in cash for oopsies. These are dental things that came up that are not covered, Car repairs, home repairs, an emergency flight to see your mother, that kind of stuff. Then I need an emergency fund. An emergency fund differs from an oopsie fund because an emergency fund is for when there is a total loss of income, which is usually due to three things. 

Divorce, disability, or some health-related thing, and job loss. So this is where we turn when it all goes a little crazy. So I need three to six months of your expenses again in a money market or a high-yield savings account somewhere. The “Fourth” is that I need to know that you're taking care of your future self. So I need at least. And these are floors. I'm giving you floors. More is always better. 

Yes. 

15% Of your pre-tax income is going to a retirement account somewhere. So it can be a combination of things. Maybe your employer does a 4% match, and you do 11% into your 401k. Maybe you have a 4% match, you do 8%, and then you fill your Roth. Any of that, whatever the permutation is, that's fine. But 15% pre taxes allows me to know that we won't be eating cat food in retirement. Yes, exactly. And then the “Fifth” is that you're managing consumer debt. What is consumer debt? It's unsecured debt, not car loans, not student loans, and not mortgages. Although student loans are not really secured. But these are personal loans and obviously credit card debt. That revolves. So either you don't have any, which is fabulous, or if you have it, we have a plan to pay it off. 

And what I see all the time is that people rush to pay it off. It's a source of shame; it feels bad. And so they're throwing a bunch of money at it every month, but they don't have these other things taken care of. And so the cycle begins again. So I put you through that first, and if you don't have that, there are no goals. 

I love it. You're like, we can't even have this conversation until this is handled. This is the essential,   fundamental, elemental requirement before it's like the pre-requisite for any other. 

That's great. 

I got it. 

That's right. And then if they do have those things and they're still like, I had one couple where he was kind of like, the kids can go to public school, it's fine. And she was like a real private school kind of gal. And it was an ongoing source of stress for them. And where I live, that's 50, 60 grand a year per child. That's no joke, right? 

No joke. Yes. 

And he was like, look at what that's going to do to us for the rest of our finances. And, it's not necessary, blah, blah. And she's saying, I went to private school, and my kids have to go to private school. So those are things where I really can't help. All I can do is show you what it's going to look like in both circumstances, and either you can figure it out together, or you can involve a third professional. That helps. 

Got it. Okay, thank you. So that's helping the couple negotiate their priorities, but financially, they're taking care of, you're giving them. Okay, here's this, what this would look like. Here's what that looked like. Okay. Now, do you ever encounter couples who are contending with, like, what feels fair when you're talking about, oh, renting out the basement so one can work less? What if both want to work less? Is it just running that scenario? 

Yeah, I do have that experience. That's a tough one. That's a really tough one. The fairness thing is tough. You know, sharing your finances gets rid of a lot of what I said earlier, which is I contribute this, and you contribute that. And if I lose my job or decide to take a job that pays less, which is what we're talking about, then what happens to my contributions, and it ripples through. And so again, the best that I can do here is show people, well, what if both of you reduced your hours or whatever it is, or what if one of you did? And what does that look like? And then again, I can give you the data. 

Yeah. 

And either turn you over to each other or a third-party professional. That makes sense for you. 

Got it. That's super helpful. Again, it seems like, as you were saying, agnostic, like the scenarios, the money is a tool, and I'm showing you this avenue, but you're not putting a lot of judgment on it. But that's part of what gives them more information to work with and hopefully be able to negotiate and collaborate. 

Figure out what makes sense and is fair, or whatever the terminology is. To be honest, that doesn't come up that often. And which is great. It doesn't come up that often because usually, I certainly have couples where both are not content with their jobs. I mean, that certainly happens, but usually there's a, oh, well, she's been dealing with this longer, so let's have her do it, and then I'll do. Usually, they've kind of sorted a lot of that stuff out. Typically, when I see that kind of stress, there's a lot of other stress in the couple's relationship, too. 

That could be like caring for elderly parents or little kids. 

Anything. Yeah, it could be anything. And usually there's kind of this. There's resentment sometimes, where it's like, well, you didn't work for three years, and I was sitting here like a chump working. That gets really complex really quickly. And that is not about money. 

Yes. Well, I mean, as you said in DNA, I was thinking about my husband, who is from the Midwest, and I think his part of his experience, whether or not it is genetic or if it's partly learned, that he wants to provide, like there. Or even just. Oh, yeah, some of the masculine. 

Right. 

Wanting to provide. But also, if it requires sacrifice on his end, even if I'm not asking him to, he's still putting himself in that position. And that can contribute to some of the discontent, but he also wants to do it. So this is kind of more of the internal, where somebody might. 

Oh, yeah, yes. 

Okay. And so are you. Again, it sounds like one of your approaches is just to help them unpack this. Like, providing is important to you, but also your happiness is important to you. 

So I don't even get that as deep as that. Yeah. But what I definitely would say is here's what it would look like. Right. So I have said to people, if you got your wish, what would it be? Well, I'd really like to be a beekeeper. And I'd really like to be whatever the other thing is. And I say, okay, well, let's see what that looks like. And are you willing to make the sacrifices that go along with that lifestyle? And that could be a smaller house. It could be, the kids go to state college and the, whatever it is. But it's. 

Yeah. 

So I try to provide data and evidence. 

Oh, my gosh. You're like the avenue to which dreams can come true. And I. 

Wow, that's big. Okay, I love that. 

But isn't it true? Because these are the vehicle, the tool, sometimes the money. It's not the only thing, but there's a lot that goes into making something happen. And sometimes when we get overwhelmed, and we don't know, we just kind of. 

Keep it all ambiguous, freeze sometimes. And we can't make a decision. And so what we do is we try to. We break that log jam, we detangle the hair, if you will. If I could just beat that metaphor to death. 

But yeah, I know. I come from more of a psychological perspective, so I appreciate. I'm asking. 

Oh, yeah. 

But they're very interconnected. Right. 

It's all psychological with money. Which is so funny because, you know, I would say 10 of what we do is mathematical, you know, and so much of it is not. So much of it is just saying, you know, reflecting what people are saying. Well, how? How do you feel about, like, if she's doing this and he's doing that? So a lot of it is, you know, when I hire associates to the firm, I'm looking first for empathy because I can teach them all the finances. It's just not that big of a deal. Yeah. I'm looking for somebody who's going to be patient, who's going to be empathetic, who has the emotional IQ required for the job. 

Well, and the vibe I'm getting from you here is, Lori, is like, it's a little bit of nonsense. Like, it's just very. 

Oh, it's all nonsense with me. Yeah. 

Well, I love that because it just, it's a little refreshing. Like, people get caught up, and they're like, oh, what are you gonna think about me? Or like what my expectations are? And it just feels like you're just very real, down to earth, very clinical for me. 

It's very clinical for me. And I say this to people all the time. I'm like, “I'm a financial gynecologist. I am not judging you on what you tell me, but you have to tell me; I can't help.” 

Yes. 

Right. Because sometimes things are hidden, I'm like, I gotta know. 

Yeah. 

I have to know. And it is. I mean, like, when you go to your doctor, you're not kind of like, oh, my God, is he or she judging me? Do you want to get an answer? 

Yeah. Yes, you want the real feedback and the input. Right, right. Okay. And it, you know, with this empathy and compassion or non judgment, that the fact that's there, like, that's so beautiful that you also can have that compassion and empathy, but that you're. Again, keep coming back to nonsense, real. 

As clinical as we can make it. Because, like I said earlier, the money itself is clinical. It doesn't feel shame. It doesn't have any feelings. At all, you know, and it's us with all the feelings and the stuff. 

Yeah, yes. So we've talked about the relational happiness a bit around how couples can work together. Did you want to say more about that? 

No. I mean, I think I've said, you know, to the extent that I'm at all knowledgeable, and from my experience, I think that's normally what I see is that one person is one way and the other person is another way and they don't know how to regress to the means so that everybody has enough savings and everybody can spend the way they want to spend. And so instead they go out to extremes. And so if you can see that and be aware. Right. Because I have people who come to me, and someone will say, ” He's looking at everything I buy, and I know we make enough money for this. And so I'll show that we know how much you're making and it's okay. 

And what I like, couples, especially when that's the case, like, I don't personally have that with my husband because both of us are pretty frugal, but I see it all the time. And what I suggest then, and what this is, what I suggest for everyone is that we have a pool of full discretionary money each month, and you need to communicate with the other person in the household about how it's getting spent. Should we go out to dinner? No, I've got to buy boots for the kids because it's snow season. Once you're doing that and making the trade-offs and communicating about what's happening before the money gets spent, you're done. You're bulletproof. Money cannot hurt your relationship in that way. 

It sounds like part of what could be helpful relationally is this ability to understand individually what one needs, or also for the family. Like, this is a proactive conversation. Like, I've already identified or earmarked certain funds for the children's boots. Right. Like that's happening, as you said before. 

That's right, spent. 

But it requires some thoughtfulness, or it requires self-awareness. 

Because you just hit on a really interesting point. The point, in my opinion, is that a lot of times somebody will come and be like, ” We have to have this much money in emergency savings. We have to. That's what they say on TV. We have to. And they hide behind, well, isn't saving good? You know, how can you be telling me they hide behind all of that when really what's going on is, hey, we don't have enough saved for my comfort. But we seem to have enough saved for your comfort. And so a lot of times I can say, look, this is how much professionally I'm recommending that you have saved. If you've hit that, any dollar after that is a discussion between you. And so I call people out when they're hiding behind, well, you know, Dave Ramsey says, blah, blah. 

And Susie Orman says that. And, you know, I'm like, whoa, whoa, don't use that. What are your needs? And people don't even see it like that. They're like, wait, saving has to be the outcome. How can you, as a financial professional, tell me that I can spend, and saving has to be the right outcome? Not always. It's not always the right outcome. 

So you're inviting people to not just adopt a formula that someone else prescribed. 

Exactly. 

But to really get clear on where I can feel really fulfilled, a life that is in alignment with. 

Get me to that happiness. 

Happiness. And also feel financially secure enough. I don't feel financially secure at X number to own it and say I don't feel comfortable. 

Right. And so the other person may not have even known that because they're so busy having the argument over which Dave Ramsey episode he said that in. 

Right. 

And that is really irrelevant. Yeah, it's utterly irrelevant. What's really happening is, you know, hey, I hate what I do for a living, and I'd like to retire early. So if you are not saving the maximum in retirement like I am, then you may be hindering that plan. 

And that's a whole different thing. 

It's a completely different thing. But gotten to it. 

Yes. I feel like if I were in that relationship and I heard that, I would be like, oh, well, what? Thank you for telling me. I wish I had known that, like, that changed. 

Yeah. 

You can have a different conversation. 

Conversation now it's a different conversation because, you know, I'm going on the assumption that you both love each other and want to be together and want what's best for each other. Then the conversation is, wait a second. We want to get you to. To retire early. I can help you do the analysis on that. That's easy. And then we can know when you can retire if you save at X, Y, and Z levels. And then we can try to get to a scenario that works. 

Excellent. I'm like, who wouldn't want you in their court? Great. Okay, so you just mentioned, I'm assuming that you both love each other, and let's say someone's in a relationship or a marriage where their money is joined. And there's a lot of problematic dynamics. They are at a place where they're considering divorce or separation, but they won't even contemplate it because of the fear of what the divorce financials would look like or the impact on them individually, like, ” Can I do this alone? 

Yeah. And divorce is one of the three bankrupters that I said in the beginning, obviously, job loss, health-related stuff, and divorce. It is right to be anxious about that, but it's knowable what you don't want to do is stick your head in the sand. So at that point, and this happens unfortunately a lot in my business, you know, the sort of breathless call from the car with the doors locked and the windows up, can I leave him or her? And I say, I don't know, let's book a time and let's figure it out. Now, how do you do this and do it? 

Yes. How do you anticipate? Depending on. This is probably way too specific, but depending on what attorneys are, how litigious it gets, or like, I don't know, like there could be different outcomes. Like, how do you predict? 

I just put an assumption in for legal fees that is very dependent on where you live, you know, and people come to me all the time. You, you already know that I'm blunt. Like that's become clear. Right. And people come to me all the time. They're like, well, we're going to use a mediator. We're going to have an amicable divorce. I'm like, you're not? Because I can already see in their assets what they're going to fight over. And I'm like, let's put aside some money for each of you. You should each have your own attorneys, regardless of whether you're doing it amicably. And let's see where we get to. And of course, I've only had one couple that actually went through and actually finished up mediation without having, you know, there's always some rub, it seems. 

Now I don't have that big of a randomized trial or anything like that. You have a data set. But I have more than most people. And so the thing there is we have, we're heavily regulated. So if you are in a couple that sees me and this happened just a few months ago, and they've been with me for a very long time, she's like, I'm out. And I'm like, okay, you cannot see me because I'm engaged with the couple. Yes, but you can see one of my associates. And so I don't know what happened, but I know she has booked with her to figure out what would happen in that case. 

And if they want to see me, then I just need to make the other person in the couple aware that's happening, and I end the relationship as a couple, and we start a relationship as a single person. 

Yeah, well, just on an aside, I've interviewed, I can't remember who it was, but they were saying, and there's a term out there legally, “I believe, about collaborative mediators or collaborative attorneys. And I appreciate that because what they were saying is if you have an attorney that's like really protecting their client and wanting to do the best to get them, you know, the result that they're looking for, it really only takes one to get aggressive in the system, and then other people get aggressive. So if people have the intention that we're going to collaborate, there's a little bit more.” 

“Cheaper. Yes. Oh, my goodness.” 

“Yeah, of course.” 

“Yeah. A mediated divorce is so much cheaper than, you know, certainly if you end up, God forbid, getting. Having to get in front of a judge on something. Right.” 

“I thought you meant a collaborative is cheaper than a regular attorney. But no, you're just saying the process.” 

“Yeah, the process. And the process is mind-blowing, but financially, that is.” 

Right. 

Yeah. But you want to look out for your own rights because a lot of times somebody feels guilty, somebody feels this or that, or somebody's trying to see if they can still somehow make it work, and they're not as protective of their own future self as they should be. 

Right, right. 

And that's where someone like me, and then obviously whatever attorneys or a set of attorneys can help, because I can say, no, you have to ask for half of his retirement. 

Right. 

Or I'm worried about you, and you know what I'm saying? 

So, yeah, Oh, it's tricky. Well, you're speaking a lot about giving the financial description of what certain options would be. And I'm. We're speaking about the possibility. Do you ever? “It sounds like more of the rarity that you will tell people, no, you can't do this, or no, or because it sounds like it would just be a trade-off, but it's rare.” 

“Yes, it's rare. And I've had some couples where they're like, you know, we're ready to dissolve the marriage, and there just aren't enough assets. And that's a hard conversation. There aren't enough assets, especially with children, for two households to be formed. Yeah, that's a really hard conversation.” But again, what I do is I lay it all down at their feet, and I'm like, take this to your. Your therapist will take it to your attorneys, and you're going to have to. I have one couple I'm thinking of as I say this, where, you know, he lives in the basement apartment in the house, and she lives in the upstairs part. Because they really could not separate the household, they were able to find something that worked. 

And some people don't get a divorce, but they operate as if they are divorced. Right. I'm not saying that's the. 

That is a whole other kettle of fish. Yes. 

I just. I happened to. It came to mind because I happen to know someone personally who. 

But they've. 

I'm grateful they have three children, and they do things as friends as they go to the events. So it's. It is very amicable that they have maintained the asset of their home. And it's. It's. 

That is very lucky. 

Yeah. 

I find that only works until one of them starts dating. 

No, they've had. No, it's. They've already. This has been years in the making, so it's. 

They should write a book. 

I know, right? 

Yeah, they should write a book. 

I don't quite understand all the nuances of it, but I do know that for the children, they've kept the family home. And what I think is going to be interesting is when the last one graduates. That's the thing. 

And then what? Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, totally. 

“Okay. I know we're winding down our time here, so is there anything else you want to say about the individual happiness around how that might fit with the financial security?”

“No. I mean, I want to remind people that if something is bugging you, something that you want to change, it's worth exploring. With someone like me, or whoever it is that helps you figure your finances out, it's worth exploring. Don't say no right at the outset. At least get the right answers and then make a decision that's informed by the data.” 

And, or approach your partner and start the conversation from a more informed place. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. I love it. Wonderful. Well, is there any other tip or practical step you want to mention beyond what you've already shared here? 

No, I mean, I think we hit a lot of things today, which was excellent. Yeah, definitely. I just, I really encourage people to get the answers to the questions and try, if you can, to get it from somebody who's fiduciary and somebody whose fees are right there on their website and not, whatever it is, assets under management or selling you products.

Okay, if I'm hearing you, are you saying not commission, not. Yes, okay, got it. 

I am saying that.

Okay, thank you. Yes. Okay. How do people get in touch with you if they're interested in learning more? 

Yeah, totally. So you can get us on the site @fearlessfinance.com, there's a “Contact Us” section. You can just tool around the site, get to know us. Our prices are right there on all the socials. We're at Fearless Finance, so just, you know, search it up. And you can also get us at [email protected] if you just want to email. If you put “Higgins” in the Promo Code, I'll give everybody who comes in that way $50 off their first meeting. My socials: Instagram: instagram.com/fearlessfinance; Facebook: facebook.com/fearlessfinance; TikTok: tiktok.com/@fearlessfinance; LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/fearless-finance. 

Thank you. 

You know it. Absolutely. Absolutely. I appreciate the opportunity to talk. 

Yeah, and just one last question here. Are you able to work with anyone in the US, or not? 

Oh, yeah. So we can work with anyone in the 50 states or any US citizen who's abroad. Anyone. I mean, I live in the District of Columbia, so I'm not in one of the 50 states. Anyone in the US or abroad. No problem. We charge by the hour only. So you're going to know what you're going to have to pay to get the answers you need. And we're fully fiduciary. 

Excellent. Wonderful. I'll make sure to have the links to your website and email on there. Thank you again for everything you've shared here today. 

Thank you so much for having me. It was really fun.