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Shame might be the silent architect behind our biggest relationship struggles—fueling secrecy, driving distance, and making genuine intimacy feel just out of reach. When the fear of rejection or not being enough sneaks in, it often keeps us locked in painful cycles of criticism, defensiveness, and disconnect. But what if the way we react to shame is the very thing sabotaging our deepest connections?

In this episode, the discussion dives into how shame operates beneath the surface of issues like betrayal, addiction, and disconnection, and offers concrete strategies for transforming these patterns. Through personal stories, therapeutic insights, and powerful principles such as courage, context, and compassion, listeners are guided in breaking free from shame’s grip. The conversation also explores practical ways to practice vulnerability, build safety, and foster more authentic connections—both with ourselves and our partners.

Brannon Patrick, LCSW, and Tyler Patrick, LMFT, are brothers and licensed clinicians who help individuals and couples heal after infidelity, addiction, and the trust rupture that follows. With 20+ years each in addiction and trauma work, they bring both depth and straight talk, translating complex psychology into practical next steps people can use immediately. Together, they host The Therapy Brothers, a weekly call-in show where real people work through betrayal, shame, trauma, and addiction in real time, with over 500 episodes and nearly 2 million downloads. Their approach centers on heart work: healing the underlying trauma and shame so couples can rebuild trust with honesty, accountability, empathy, and healthy strength.

Episode Highlights

03:25 Overcoming betrayal and rebuilding trust.

07:34 Authenticity vs connection in relationships.

12:17 Shame's hidden impact on self-image.

15:35 Using IFS to overcome shame.

18:39 Choosing love and self-awareness.

21:10 Navigating shame's impact on relationships.

24:13 Navigating vulnerability in relationships.

28:28 Embracing compassion over self-criticism.

31:52 Exploring EFT and emotional connectivity.

34:48 Recovering trust after betrayal.

36:45 The trust equation and lasting love.

41:54 Beginning your healing journey.

Your Checklist of Actions to Take

• Practice Courage: Begin sharing your personal story and feelings with people you trust, focusing on authenticity and vulnerability.
• Build Context: Remind yourself you are not alone in your struggles; seek out others with similar experiences to normalize your feelings and reduce shame.
• Cultivate Compassion: Replace self-criticism with curiosity and kindness; when you notice a harsh inner voice, intentionally respond with understanding instead.
• Separate Your Parts: Use parts work or Internal Family Systems (IFS) to identify shame-driven and protective parts within yourself, then approach them with gratitude rather than rejection.
• Join a Support Group: Find or create safe spaces such as group therapy or support circles where you can practice vulnerability and receive nonjudgmental feedback.
• Create Boundaries: Establish healthy internal and external boundaries so you can engage with others' emotions without absorbing attacks or losing your sense of self.
• Get Professional Help: Explore modalities such as IFS, EMDR, ART, or DBT to address entrenched patterns and trauma that reinforce shame.
• Work on Relationship Recovery: If healing from betrayal, prioritize establishing safety and consistency, then focus on individual growth alongside nurturing relationship trust and intimacy.

Mentioned

The Therapy Brothers (podcast)

Shifting Criticism For Connected Communication (free relationship guide)

Connect with Tyler and Brannon Patrick

Website: therapybrothers.org

YouTube: youtube.com/@lovestrong | youtube.com/@therapy.brothers 

Facebook: facebook.com/love.strong.org | facebook.com/ExpertBrannon 

Instagram: instagram.com/therapy.brothers/ | instagram.com/sunrisegoal

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/brannon-patrick/ | linkedin.com/in/tyler-patrick-lmft-24488366/ | linkedin.com/in/chase-jones-b63368128

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

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Episode Transcript

Tyler and Brannon, thank you for joining us. 

Brannon:
Thanks for having us. 

Tyler:
Excited to be with you. Yeah. 

You both are licensed clinicians, also fellow podcasters, and it sounds like you do a lot to support people navigating betrayal, infidelity, addiction, secrecy, all of those things. And I know we're going to dive a little bit more into how shame might be influencing those dynamics, those choices. Is there a place you want to start? Maybe, if you want to share anything with people who may be just getting to know you, but also as we orient to the topic. 

Brannon:
Tyler, you want to start? 

Tyler:
Sure. Brannon and I come by this from two different kinds of places, but we landed together in what we do and specialize in what we do with couples who are going through infidelity, betrayal of trust. Usually, there's some kind of addiction or something around that as well. And that comes both from a professional standpoint, in the way that we were trained, but also on my side, from a very personal standpoint. And so a lot of the principles that we teach our clients and a lot of the stuff we're going to talk about today with shame has been hard-earned in the trenches of life as well as in the trenches of school and academia. So everything we talk about here is it's got real life examples behind it. 

It's been tested not only in the research and academic world, but also in the lived, real world. 

Tyler:
That's right. 

I love it. Brannon, do you want to say anything? 

Brannon:
Yeah, you bring up, like, the shame piece to things and how it. How it affects the things that we specialize in. Addiction, betrayal, relationship issues. And the real question is how it doesn't. Like, it just is the reason for so much of it. And so we love to talk about it because you start to see it when you start to put words to it and understand what it actually is. So I'm excited to dive into that with you, Jessica. 

Me too, so even as you say here, how does it not? Do you both see either unresolved shame or shame as a major component of some of these choices? I mean, sometimes people think of addiction, infidelity, these types of betrayals, as either a temporary escape or trying to manage an unmet need, but also there can be a limited capacity to. “To lean into the relationship with honesty and some of that transparency or the inadequacy that might be happening there with the shame. So, help us with how you see shame playing a role.” 

Brannon:
“If you understand how we define shame.” 

Yeah, let's start there. 

Brannon:
“Yeah. I think underneath all of it is. It's fear of rejection or abandonment.” It's that exile part that's like, don't see me or else you'll reject me, or you won't choose me or love me. And so I don't think every time somebody cheats or falls into temptation or whatever it may be is just shame-driven. But usually after that, it leads to some secrecy. And 

And then it starts to deteriorate. Like a sense of self, I'm living in secrecy. If you really knew me, would you love me? I need to hide, and so then, as you have these secrets in a relationship, little things come up, and it's a little pushback of Don't get too close to me. I'll live in defensiveness; I'll overreact to certain things. 

Brannon:
And it starts to cause all kinds of relationship problems. And it just kind of- it's like a domino effect from there, just so it also feeds addiction as well. If I feel a ton of shame and I feel awful about myself all the time, I need an escape. And so I go find my escape. And then after that escape, I feel worse about myself. And so it just cycles. It's cycles over and over again.

So it sounds like, as you're describing, it can be a way to cope with some of those inadequacy feelings or shame feelings. And it can also be a preemptive protective strategy, almost. It's like I'm going to create some barriers or blocks to my fear of being rejected or abandoned. It's almost like it's an offensive move. A bit of an offensive move before it even happens, like I'm anticipating. So I'm going to create these barriers. 

Tyler:
Yeah, I'd say you could even take that a step further with what you're saying, Jessica. And look at just how relationships form in the first place, especially in the world that we live in now, where we've got two people who are putting on, like, what they think is their best foot forward, but in a lot of ways it's not really authentic. And then they get into a relationship that isn't fully authentic. And then they spend their whole relationship trying not to show each other to one another. And then they wonder why they can't find a connection with each other. And then, of course, that causes problems and strain. And so what we deal with is just something that goes a little bit deeper when the coping turns that way. 

And so it's a weird place for us as human beings to live in a spot where we're wired for connection and attachment. We need it, we want it so badly. And now most of us have this thing in the back of our mind that says if people really know me, they won't love me. And so then that coping that we form is. Sometimes it's overperformance, sometimes it's defensiveness, sometimes it's pulling away and isolating. But now we're trying to keep people just close enough that we don't get rejected, but we never actually allow them fully in to see all of us. And that distance in between is where a lot of the friction in relationships really comes from. Come into play. 

And then it sounds like it can potentially be. “The disconnection is not like a breeding ground, but it creates a lot of opportunity for other things to start now.” Running interference. And I just want to endorse, from my experience, there's so much in the dating kind of support realm that is talking about how to be sexy or what the things to pay attention to are that can feel a little gamey. But I understand it serves a purpose in some. Some regard when we really enter into a more committed partnership, and the safety and that container that it is sometimes saying the things that we don't want to say or we feel ashamed of. And that actually is, ironically, the thing that cultivates connection and intimacy. 

I could say for myself, the times when my husband and I, in the early stages of our relationship, it was like the things that I felt were most unlovable and shameful that I didn't want to say were the things that really broke the tension, or at least the conflict that we were having, and making that a little bit more visible. Showing my belly, if you will. And he could see that softness and then respond. It was so much more direct to connect. But it can often feel really terrifying to take those steps and risks. 

Tyler:
Hundred percent, because the vulnerability is truly there. Those are the things that you. When you show your husband those things, he could legitimately hurt you in some of the most sensitive places, right? 

Brannon:
Yes, but. 

Tyler:
But when he meets you with acceptance and empathy, that is the pathway to deeper connection inside the relationship. And so it's a weird place because

And then the person on the other side has to offer grace and love and empathy and Acceptance. And then those two things together make a really beautiful bloom of something deeper than we ever had in the first place. 

“Totally. It's like reparative for the relationship, but it's also really healing or corrective for the person who's contending with some of those shame feelings. Brannon, you were going to chime in?” 

Brannon:
“Yeah, I was just going to say that the hard part with this is that the answer to shame is the opposite action to what the shame is actually telling you to do. So, like, it's exactly what you just described. But it's really hard to do it like in that moment when I'm triggered, and I feel like you either like you see something about me that I believe is unlovable. I don't want to turn around and open up and be vulnerable. And yet that oftentimes is the thing that will definitely help.” And so if I am running away or avoiding or shutting down, or if I turn around and I say, hey, I just have this fear about this thing, and I'm really scared that you're going to reject me. I just opened up a window for connection, just like what you were talking about. 

“So I also opened up the window for the annihilation of the relationship.” 

Brannon:
“That's why it's called vulnerability. Because you are vulnerable in that moment. And if you can't practice that, then you're always gonna have attachment issues in your relationship. You're always gonna be distant, and so you gotta take those risks. But if your partner's not safe or if you have a lot of trauma underneath, then you're not going to take those risks. And that's where relationships really get stuck.” 

So yes, thank you for mentioning that. Because as you were describing this, Brannon, I was thinking, for one, that hasn't experienced a lot of secure functioning in relationships or has felt perhaps the need to hide or conceal or has some idea, almost an identity, like wrapped up in some of these shame-coping, earning over functioning tendencies, that how do you help people take those risks? Like, it's like I almost feel like my whole, like thinking of more IFS internal family systems, like the shame could be so encapsulated with the sense of self that it's like how we can't even look at it as a part. It's just like my sense of self is kind of collapsed in this shame. 

Tyler:
A hundred percent. And I think that's one of the biggest challenges that we run into. And that's why, let's say we have a couple come into our office, and there's shame really going on both sides now pretty strongly. And it's like maybe the currency that they're operating from. But they're coming in and saying, we need help with communication skills, or we need to overcome this addiction to something. They don't realize that it all funnels down to that. Like, they're both identifying as not blank enough. Right. And so what we try to help them do is actually create other parts of their life where they get a chance to practice some of these shame resiliency principles that we're going to talk about today, where, just last week, in a women's group, I had a woman do one of the assignments that we give them. And inside of that assignment, she kind of choked, and just, like, you could tell that lump in her throat came up. She's like, And she couldn't talk, and I said, something's catching your throat right now. And she said, I'm so afraid to speak these words out loud. She was talking about her upbringing with some childhood trauma that led to some eating disorder stuff. And she finally spoke the words. You could see that she's, like, shaking and trembling. Her voice is shaking. And then in that moment inside the group, she's afraid of the judgment. She's afraid of being exiled. 

And instead, what she received was three other women going, ” Me, too, and a couple of other women going, ” Oh, my gosh, I feel so much closer to you now that I understand you, and I love your story. And now she's having what we call an emotionally corrective experience inside of the very vulnerable place that she's been carrying with her for her whole life. And so we try to help create safe spaces to practice speaking it, adding context to it, being compassionate to it. And then they systematically start moving into other parts and other relationships of their lives, acting with courage, because they start to kind of separate that identity. You're talking about the shame itself. 

Yes. To have that attunement, that responsiveness, engagement. But also, if we look at the risk, it's a bit more doable in the sense that, on a scale from 1 to 10, it's people in the group mean something, but not as significant as a partner.

Tyler:
Exactly. Exactly. 

“So the stakes are a little lower to practice, to get some of that experience, to then maybe replicate.” 

Brannon:
But fast, before we move on? Because you brought up one of my favorite things: parts work. And I just want to identify one of the major, just major, I guess, philosophies of IFS, which is, I think Richard Schwartz discovered something. And what he discovered was that if I feel shame, then 

“So it's not through. It's not that I shouldn't feel shame, or why did I get defensive with my wife? Or why did I do this? Or why am I a failure? Why do I need to change? And what he discovered was that when you separate it into parts, then you differentiate yourself from that part, and then you learn how to have compassion for that part and even gratitude for that part.” 

Brannon:
So 

And so it's a really cool skill to have. And I think it's really good for relationships where, if I might sound a little crazy, but if I go to my wife and I say, whoa, I just had a protective part come up that wanted to get really sarcastic and nasty because I have that part and you do, and just, and tell you how wrong you are. Like, and you know what? Like, I want to unburden that part. I appreciate that it came up. It's trying to protect me. But what I really want to tell you is this, and be vulnerable in that moment. It was a very different experience because I embodied my part. I was resilient to my shame. 

I open up an opportunity for connection. 

Thank you so much for laying that out a bit here because, again, as this can be so entrenched, it's hard to understand what is possible. And I love the recognition that maybe there's the part that's a bit of a hard-ass, if you will, that's like Get out of here. Just kind of shaming, like the actual shaming action to the part that is attacking. And it's really difficult to make heads or tails. And if you're able to hold some space and have that compassion, then there's a bit more room to look at how. I mean, there's so much around this. But to have that compassion, to have the, be able to see the vulnerability and to make that a bit more visible in a relationship, it's huge. 

But it's like I get a sense that it's almost like the individual work is holding on to self a bit more, holding that, holding, like not abandoning or rejecting self first. 

Brannon:
Yes. 

So then show like I have something to stand on that I maybe feel wobbly in, but I can at least show. And then there may be a different relational interaction. But if I can't even find my ground, it's very difficult to do that work. 

Brannon:
I love the way you just said that. I don't abandon myself. I actually validate and give a lot of compassion to myself, which then makes me a conscious partner who can show up as an adult and be conscious and aware of what's going on within myself. And once I can do that, then I get to decide what I get to create. I can either create love and connection, or I can go create more destruction. But now, because I'm conscious, I can actually choose that, if I'm not, if I don't hold onto self as you said, and I just react, and my parts are just like. They're the ones taking charge; I lose that consciousness. I lose that ability to unburden and I just. 

And your partner probably has no idea how to show up for you or help you. 

Brannon:

No, they don't. 

Tyler:
No clue. 

Brannon:
My little boy part is just like that. She's like, what do I do with it? Then her parts come back and like, well, I got this part for that part of yours, you know? 

Yeah. 

Brannon:
And you just get nowhere. 

Where the vulnerability is, it's like, perhaps she can attune to you to do the thing you're talking about in group work, that it's a bit softer to have that connection. Tyler, you were going to say something? 

Tyler:
It's great, I was just going to. I was just thinking of personal examples of some of this stuff. And sometimes when I'm in my kind of shameful parts, and maybe my wife comes to me, and she's like, hey, Tyler, we need to talk about something. And I dip into my classic thing, which is to disappear and be like, you're right, you deserve somebody better. Like, I'll never be good enough. And as I'm pulling away, I'm hoping she'll chase me and keep me close, right? And then care for me and for me to not have her parts get hit if she's in her own self or shame resiliency, she can see the dance, and then she can still invite me into this space rather than just play the old reactive part herself. 

So instead of like, well, okay, Tyler, I'll come and baby you. And then I'm gonna feel like I never got my needs met. Talk to you. She can say something instead of, like, ” Hey, Tyler, I can see this is hard on you, but what I need from you is to listen to me right now. Are you in a space where you can do that? And if not, let's talk later, and I'll trust that you go get grounded or whatever. Right. If she's grounded and I'm not, she can still change the system. Or if I'm grounded and she's not, I can still change the system. It only takes one of us to be in that sort of shame-resilient place to shift where we typically go. 

Oh, my goodness. I was hoping that we would talk about this, because a lot of the times in the relational dynamic, if one has a propensity to go a little bit more to that shame downward spiral or a collapse, the partner typically is a little bit more hypervigilant to that or is trying to manage that in some way or try to track emotional stability or maybe, like you said, won't even fully express or will abandon their need to try to caretake, but that there's a lot of difficulty tolerating the distress for the one that does feel a lot of shame activated, that maybe they don't have the capacity at that moment to hold ground, and there's a different way of doing this. 

Brannon:
It's not my job to regulate my wife's emotions. However, I can be a huge asset to help create safety and diffuse the situation so that she can regulate her own. And what Tyler's talking about is actually awesome when it happens because it's like, whoa, I'm like in drama or shame or whatever. And it's like, okay, let's get out of your emotional mind. I'm still in my wise mind here. Like, let's bring this down. I'm available; I got this safety. And it's awesome when that happens. If their drama or shame fires off, you can also become the biggest liability. And you can trip when they're triggered; you can really start hitting that trigger button. 

Oh, yeah. 

Brannon:
And so, yeah, it's really awesome when you can actually. When both partners can take turns, like, okay, like, when my son says something to my wife and my wife's ready to, like, rip his head off, and it's like, hey, like, let me take this one. And it's okay that you're mad, you know? 

Yes. So, yeah, those tender moments where there's a lot of rub or tension, they can turn a corner quickly because even the one that might raise their hand of like, I got something I want to clear with you, they can then feel if the person isn't able to hold ground or it seems like they're preoccupied with their own shame, that it's like, oh, you're selfish. And, like, it can really be a difficult spot that can create more. 

Brannon:
You're not there for me. Not there. Like, you're gonna hurt me. You're gonna abandon me. You just got defensive. And then all of a sudden, it can just like, really turn into some pretty bad stuff. 

Yeah. Tyler, were you gonna say anything else? 

Tyler:
Yeah, no, I was just thinking of, like, just. Exactly. Just another example of this, maybe the flip side of that. My wife comes to me. She's been feeling neglected for a while, but maybe she's already dipped all the way into her hard place. And so the startup is something like, hey, Tyler, it's a miracle that you keep a full caseload because you suck at listening. Right. Like, so she says that, like, she's coming at it from her own protective parts already. 

Right, exactly. 

Tyler:
That's as vulnerable as she can get. And if I hear just the content of what she's saying, I'm going to let that go straight into my shame. And then I'm going to go either get defensive and fight back, or I'm going to go disappear and do my normal drill. But if I'm in my shame resiliency, I'm going to see what that was, and that was her protective part. And I'm gonna come right back to her with something like, hey, babe, the fact that you just said that to me tells me that you must be feeling blank, neglected, upset. You want my time. I love that. You want my time. Is that what's going on? Like, you wanna talk about that? And I can start to defuse it. 

Yes. 

Tyler:
And invite more vulnerability just by showing up in my own shame resiliency. 

I love that I have called this like a ninja move, or even that I have some training in Aikido backpack. But if there's a bit of an attack, the tendency there is to kind of move away or to kind of fight back or freeze. And if we don't, if we're not really armored or have a weapon, so to speak, then we're going to get hurt. Right. So it's like you're getting off that line of attack, staying empowered, like you're still with her, but then you're getting curious about that attack. Like, tell me more, or this sounds really big for you. Or it sounds like you really need me to listen. Can you tell me more? But the attack is still there. You're just off the line of attack.  I don't know if this makes sense. 

Tyler:
I love that it makes total sense. And I think, as you said, that's a superpower in relationships. 

But it's so incredibly helpful. But it's not easy to do. 

Tyler:
It's hard. 

Brannon:

As if my wife says, ” Hey, you dirty rotten scoundrel, and I don't have internal or external boundaries, and I'm like, I guess I am, or how dare you call me that? But if I'm boundaried and I know who I am, I stand on my own two feet, then I can do what? What are you guys talking about? But I have to have those boundaries to do it. 

Yes. And even that, there may be another position for me to stand in that I can still be engaged and present, but not absorbing the attack. 

Brannon:
Right. I'm not you. 

You don't define me. So I can hear your emotion. I can love you, but, like, I'm different from you. I'm healthily differentiated here so that I can actually connect to your intense emotion right now. 

Yes. I think I've also described it as, like, almost coming alongside. It's as though there's a projection or like a movie being or something. And, like, let's look at this together. Right? Like, I'm not. As you said, this is not an accurate description. 

Brannon:
I'm not taking it personally. 

You're not creating me. You're not defining me as we speak. I'm just going to get interested in, like, what you're describing here. Okay. You both have mentioned shame resilience principles. I feel like perhaps we could shift there unless you want to comment before we do that. 

Brannon:
Oh, let's do it. 

Okay. Where would you like to start? 

Brannon:
Tyler, you're the shame resiliency guy, man. 

Tyler:
All right. Just go for it. So, we talk about a few things. These are some simple things. And I think Brené Brown has spoken to some of these things as well. But a really simple start would be shame. Resiliency comes with the practice of the three C’s. The first one is what Brené Brown calls “courage.” And what she says courage is the ability to tell the story of who you are with your whole heart. So 

And she will also say that not everybody deserves to hear your whole story because they're not going to hold it properly. Right? “So that's the first C: the courage to tell your story of who you are and let people see you.” 

The second one is context, which is whatever is the thing that we feel most “compromised” about. Most of us think we're the only ones, right? So people who struggle with, say, infertility, they think they're the only ones. And then they realize that nearly a third of all pregnancies end in miscarriage, right? Or someone we work with a lot might be someone who's addicted to pornography, and they think they're the only ones, and they've never spent money on it. But it's a hundred billion-dollar-a-year industry. And so 

because shame is a tunnel that puts us down in a dark cave by ourselves, and then the last C is “compassion”. 

And it's learning to approach those places where we typically approach ourselves with criticism and contempt and control, and to learn to step in with curiosity and compassion instead and start to say, wait a second, like this is a DBT principle, but everybody is always doing the best they can, and they need to do better. And if I were to step into myself that way, how is this the best response right now? What is it that I'm actually trying to accomplish? That's a lot different approach that has a lot of wiggle room for growth and compassion and understanding than Hey, you're terrible. I can't believe you keep doing this horrible thing, right? 

So if I'm doing context, courage, and compassion, and cycling through that over and over again as a way of exercising, I'm stepping into what's called a wholehearted life, which is where I'm now connected to other people. I'm connected to the truth of who I am a bit more. And I'm realizing that I'm just part of common humanity here. I'm not some person who needs to be hidden in a corner. 

And is this something that you advise in the practice to start developing individually and then offering to one's partner as well relationally, or do you see this as a two-pronged. 

Tyler:
Yeah, we look at most of the couples that we work with, and we talk about three recoveries happening simultaneously. So there are both partners, their individual recovery, and then there's our recovery. And if both partners will do the work of their own, we can use whatever framework you want, their parts work or their same resiliency work, or if they'll do their work of those, their self work, then they start being able to offer more and more of self to the relationship without needing the relationship. And then that's where there's the safety to be more and more vulnerable with one another. And

And so it kind of works simultaneously. 

Let's both do our own self-work, trauma work, healing work, and then let's keep, and let's also keep nurturing the relationship. 

Brannon:
One of the problems with that is that the pain points usually come out because of the relationship. And so they come in for help, and they want to focus right on that relationship. Like, let's fix this. But the ingredients in the relationship aren't going to create harmony and a healthy relationship. And so, when we come back, we come to them, and we say, hey, like, work on your shame resiliency or do your trauma work, or they're like, but we got in a fight last night. That's all I want to talk about. Like all I want to do is the relationship, work relationship. 

And they got to back up and say, ” Hey, how do we create space and time and energy for us to really look at why I pop off or why I avoid or why I like, I need to look at that for a second, and then I'll start showing up different with you. So it's hard sometimes to create that space because the relationship is so prevalent in all of the struggle and it's getting. 

Activated so quickly and so frequently.

Brannon:
All the time. 

Right. So it makes sense that there would be a need to get support to negotiate that differently. And this seems to map really beautifully with the EFT principles in that when there's an understanding of what's on the inside and trying to get some individual connection with the more vulnerable core parts to then be able to send that over to their partner, it's more distilled. It's a clearer, more vulnerable signal. But to do that, there needs to be an unpacking of understanding that is deeper. The deeper layers, rather than all the story and the production protection and the reactivity that typically people get caught in that cycle. So I appreciate your naming the three components and also just how it's happening simultaneously. I remember, so I'm a fan of David Schnarch‘s work, of the differentiation. 

And when I was doing training with the EFT, I was like, they typically aren't friends. I mean, I know David Schnarch has since passed, but just the people who follow that work, but it was like, they absolutely worked together. 

You need to have differentiation to kind of hold on, to connect with what's happening internally and to make contact with that, to feel it, to then show it. Like, that's being differentiated in my mind. 

Tyler:
So, yes, I think you're right, it's funny. The more I can trust myself to recover if my partner doesn't hold my vulnerability or my bid for connection, the more I can take the risk of keeping her a chance to practice. And so that's why that individual work really matters, because that allows me to offer more of myself more often. After all, I can trust that I can land on my feet again if it doesn't go well. 

So I'm wondering what you're describing. The individual works for both partners and the relational dynamics. When there is a betrayal and the shattering and the kind of revealing of that, or however that comes to be, do you see that as something that needs a particular support, or is that what you're talking about now? Go ahead, Brannon. 

Brannon:
Oh, I was gonna say, how much time do you have? Like, there's a process to it, and it's step by step. And a couple needs to understand, like, what that process is. So getting educated and really understanding what it looks like is important. And then the first thing I won't go through the whole process here, but the first thing we look at is that when there's been betrayal, we need to make sure that there's safety, because you're not going to go do this vulnerable work unless there's some safety there. So what does it mean for the individuals to be able to have a safe space, to then start to move forward with their own work, and then just to kind of make this quicker? 

It's really then a commitment to your own individual recovery, your deeper dive work, your trauma work. And within that, you're doing things like good, healthy boundary work, learning shame resiliency, and other things. And then you 

Because the partner who's betrayed and broken trust, hopefully now they're a human being that can be consistent, they can be empathetic, they can be honest, and they've done that over time. And now that they've done that over time, the betrayed partner can now start to take some risks back because I see recovery like you feel different, your energy is different, you're not constantly trying to disconnect. But I'm still terrified to connect to you because you hurt me. And so there needs to be a full support system there to say you can go take those risks, like step into this. 

And it's beautiful. 

And oftentimes it's way better than it ever was. So yes, there's a process, there's a support system, there are tools, but it's a journey. It's a one day at a time journey. 

Thank you for speaking to that. A lot of people are in the camp that betrayal and the attention to support are important. Before entering into some of what you're saying about leaning into the relational work that the individual work and I mean, sometimes how people engage with that is very different. Right. So there are a lot of question marks along the way. 

Tyler:
Yeah, we use something called the trust equation. Brannon outlines some of it, but in essence, it's both partners. 

Now each one of those is its own pathway. Right. So it's pretty intense and a lot of times there's a lot of damage that gets done when you know the person who's done the betraying is looking for quick, fast repair and the other partners languishing behind and doesn't know why, but they feel pressure to forgive or, and when there's room to be a work in progress, the couples that we see do the best is they adopt a work in progress mentality as how they approach the relationship in general. 

And now the relationship becomes its own form of an emotional, spiritual pathway of growth rather than the end, all of completing each other. And those couples that do that seem to find more deep and lasting satisfaction in the long run. 

Yes, and I can appreciate that this isn't always evident, but also if there's room to be in the discovery. And I mean that in itself is a bit of in my mind, a principle of tolerating the unknown and the discomfort of not having it all figured out. Right. And manage our own anxiety as well as stay present. “Okay, so for the three C’s, do you have a bit of an example? Is there anything that you. It sounds like you guys offer a ton of resources. How does one make this a bit more actionable? I mean, you gave some language on how to contemplate. Is there any other?” 

Brannon:
“Go ahead. Tyler. Tyler's our guy. Lead them, lead them right to what we do.” 

Tyler:
“Yeah.  So we've kind of taken it, and there are a lot of different ways to do this. What we've taken are the principles we're talking about today. We've created something called the Healing Journey, which is a six-part course that includes a series of not just lessons, but a series of challenges, tasks, and assignments for each person to do. And most of them come straight back to these three C’s, practicing these three C’s in different sets and settings. And sometimes they're internal processes, sometimes they're relational processes. Some of them even include bigger things like spiritual processes. And we have them practice and then share with team members what they build, and we help them select their team members. Sometimes we become their team members, and then we help them practice doing and speaking over and over again. And we call it the Healing Journey. And that's the way we do it. But it really comes right back down to those three things: just ways to practice.” 

Is this targeted for people who are experiencing the rupture of betrayal? Okay, what about for someone who just recognizes that shame influences their experience and some of their choices, but they're not quite at a rupture? 

Brannon:
Well, I'll give you a dirty little secret. So we've been doing this a long time, and we've run a lot of different programs, and a lot of times some of the things that people do for healing from betrayal are actually counterproductive. They feed a fear cycle. They lead to more anxiety and more disconnection. And, and so the, like, the program that we run is specific for betrayal, and sex addiction and those types of things. But the principles of it, I think, are something that everybody should go through. It sounds like Why shouldn't we get conscious? Why shouldn't we? She practiced our shame resiliency and learned how to have compassion for our dad who screwed up a bunch or mom or whatever, like, and then come out on the other end of.

So yes, everybody could use it, but the principles of it are the principles that work to heal from betrayal as well. 

So, which are some of the most intense ruptures? 

Brannon:
It is, if not the most. Right. 

Yeah. Wonderful! Okay, so you're giving a little bit of an example. Of what you offer. I guess maybe we want to pivot towards how people can get in touch with you, and you have a podcast. What's the name of your podcast? 

Brannon:
We're The Therapy Brothers. You can find us at all the podcast places. So we have guests come on a lot of times; it's just me and Tyler breaking down a principle. We've been going for five years. We have 500-something episodes. 

Nice. 

Brannon:
So there's content forever over there about every topic around what we've talked about today. So, yeah, it's tough. 

Tyler:
We actually created, for any of your listeners, we created kind of targeted way for them to see if anything would help them at therapybrothers.org/empoweredrelationship Podcast. That would be the best way to check all of that out. But if it's okay, I would also maybe back up to your last question because I don't feel like I answered it fully, maybe to what you were asking. And so if someone's sitting here listening and saying, ” Okay, I'm not sure I want to go do the healing journey with The Therapy Brothers, where would I start? And where I would suggest starting is some of the places we've already touched. So you can get all of the same things. And they can visit my YouTube channel youtube.com/@lovestrong

If you pursue things like IFS, if you look at some trauma work like EMDR or ART, if you start leaning into, after you get through the ruptured part, some EFT principles in your relationship, you're going to be getting a lot of those same things. You can piece that together in your own way. But that's really what all of this is built on. So EFT, ART, EMDR parts work, DBT, and then a bunch of the same stuff. 

Brannon:
All the -T's.

Tyler:
That kind of been brought together. So if you were to look in those realms of those different kinds of therapies, you'd see a lot of the same things. 

Excellent. Wonderful. And is that usually the group work, the program, and your podcast? Are those the primary ways for people to work with you both? Okay. Excellent. 

Brannon:
Wonderful. 

Well, I'll make sure to have all the links on today's show notes. I really enjoyed all that you've shared here today. Thank you for being with me. 

Brannon:
Thanks for having us. 

Tyler:
Thank you for what you're doing here.