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Broken trust in a relationship can feel like an earthquake, shattering the very foundation you once believed was unshakable. The pain, confusion, and sense of being lost can leave couples wondering if true intimacy is even possible after betrayal. Many couples long for closeness but find themselves stuck, not knowing how to rebuild what was lost or where to even begin. When wounds run deep, is it ever possible to truly reconnect and create real, lasting intimacy?

In this episode, listeners will discover a step-by-step approach designed to guide couples through the difficult process of healing after a rupture. By exploring practical strategies for restoring honesty, safety, and trust, this conversation offers a clear roadmap toward deeper vulnerability and stronger connection. Whether you're mending after betrayal or simply striving for deeper intimacy, you'll find actionable guidance and hope for creating a secure, thriving partnership.

Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith are trained relationship specialists, speakers, and authors of the book Building True Intimacy: Creating a Connection that Stands the Test of Time. They have over 20 years of combined experience in counseling, coaching, and guiding couples toward healing and transformation. Currently, they co-lead The Raabsmith Team, where their mission is to help couples navigate the complexities of relational challenges, particularly in the aftermath of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma.

Episode Highlights

05:19 Discovering the path to repair and the intimacy pyramid.

11:55 Addressing underlying issues and readiness for change.

15:04 How pain motivates the healing process.

18:53 The role of individual healing before rebuilding relationship dynamics.

21:33 Boundaries and healthy differentiation in couples work.

24:40 Using structure and process to overcome relational challenges.

26:25 Starting with honesty and rebuilding safety.

29:23 Building responsibility and restoring trust.

32:51 Creating a shared narrative for healing.

36:03 Reconnecting through trust and body awareness.

40:52 Becoming more vulnerable to deepen connection.

43:54 Healing together through shared grief.

45:46 Applying the intimacy framework to everyday relationships.

Your Checklist of Actions to Take

• Restore Honesty: Begin with complete openness and transparency about past actions and their impacts—commit to sharing the full truth with your partner.
• Individual Healing: Each partner should focus on their own emotional healing, whether recovering from betrayal or its effects, ideally through therapy or support groups.
• Build Safety: Consistently demonstrate trustworthy behaviors over time, such as attending therapy, setting boundaries, and keeping commitments, to re-establish a sense of safety.
• Validate and Express Pain: The betrayed partner should openly share their emotional impacts and pain, while the betraying partner listens and acknowledges them without defensiveness.
• Address Underlying Issues: Look beyond stopping the hurtful behavior by addressing the deeper causes—like trauma or unhealthy coping strategies—on an individual level.
• Develop a Shared Narrative: Together, reflect on and discuss your relationship story, acknowledging how each person experienced the rupture and making room for both perspectives.
• Practice Relational Repairs: When trust is rebuilt, work as a team to create restorative changes, such as shifting household roles or reprioritizing family over work, to demonstrate lasting change.
• Move Toward Vulnerability: Once trust grows, lean into emotional vulnerability together—share grief, hope, and joy as a couple, allowing greater intimacy and secure connection to develop.

Mentioned

Building True Intimacy: Creating a Connection That Stands the Test of Time (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Make a Better Connection (free guide)

12 Relationship Principles to Strengthen Your Love (free relationship guide)

Connect with Joanna and Matthew Raabsmith

Website: raabsmithteam.com

Instagram: instagram.com/theraabsmithteam

Facebook: facebook.com/raabsmithteam 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/joanna-raabsmith | linkedin.com/in/matthew-raabsmith 

YouTube: youtube.com/channel/UCbDaZjonvtm5d1c6RsgTnyA

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Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

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*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Matthew and Joanna, thank you for joining us. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
So excited to be here. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
Yeah, really looking forward to it. 

Yeah. I wanted to dive in a bit more around the process of building trust after a rupture or repair. But also, I know you do a lot to support people just even cultivating deeper levels of intimacy and how that is sustainable and long-term intimacy. But as we get started, I know you both are very open about your personal story, having experienced a rupture and betrayal and also the process of really developing deep true intimacy. And if you can share what helped you really start to access repair from rupture. If we can start there. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, what do they say?

I think we're in a place in our relationship where it was not where we expected to be. I think when Joanna and I first got together, there was a really strong connection between the two of us. We felt a really deep sense of calling to our relationship, and that like that kind of who we were together really mattered and would. Would have this impact. And about three years into our relationship, when it came out that I was really living a double life and that Joanna had in some ways no idea kind of who she was married to because I was struggling with compulsive sexual behaviors and sexual addiction and breaking the fidelity of our relationship, that this dream of ours really dissolved.

But it wasn't something we were ready to give up on. And so we're kind of desperate. We were like, how do we build something that will actually be worth the effort? Because I think that was part of it for us was it was like, well, if we're gonna go to all the work of fixing it, we'd like it to not suck. We really like it to be good on the other side. Like we don't wanna just sit down 30 years later and go, we survived. Like we didn't die. But we actually have something we share. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
And we didn't die. Totally know if it was possible. There's not a lot of stories out there of people doing this, like publicly sharing what it looks like. And so there's a lot of pieces we didn't know. We just knew what we wanted and what we didn't want. And so we kind of. We dove right into recovery and the different resources that were able to find. There were some really good ones from Matthew as the betraying side of the story. And he dove in right away into recovery and getting sober and doing 12-step meetings and things like that. There was less for me; at the time, 

And so it took me a little while to figure out, what does it look like for me to heal from the impacts of what I've been through, what I've experienced. And then there's even less for us as a couple understanding, like, what does the relational journey of repair and restoration look like? There was almost nothing for couples healing. And so we really kind of struggled a little bit, wandering around, trying to find our way. And as we did that, we were able to start to see there is actually a path out of this. That is what sparked our passion for actually helping other couples find their way out of it. 

We thought, well, maybe since we've kind of forged this path, other people can benefit from that and kind of follow behind and not have to run into as many brick walls as we did. And so we actually developed then a framework for couples healing that is really what we walked through, sometimes not knowing exactly what it was. But it really started that foundational piece of the framework. It's called the intimacy pyramid. And if you imagine, like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, a triangle with different levels building up to the top, that's intimacy. That's where we want it to be. “We knew we wanted healthy, secure attachment, thriving intimacy, like all that we had dreamed for in our relationship; we still wanted it. And so, like Mattew said, if we're going to go through this process, we want something good on the other side.” 

But how do we get there? That was like the giant shin. And so that bottom level was so crucial for us. And I'm so glad that we did have some resources that spoke this into our life and into our journey. “Very early on,

Right. And so that looked like the full story of what had happened, the things Matthew had done out in the open through a full disclosure. And so kind of, it felt like a reset button a little bit on our relationship. And we're starting over and going to build something from there. 

And before we get into the full description, so incredibly helpful for what you both have experienced in giving real repair and providing a deep level of intimacy that you both longed for and craved. And also how to make that actionable, living into it, co-creating it. What are some of the misconceptions or some of the roadblocks that might trip people up before we kind of lay? I mean, you're providing a really beautiful guide and map, but just to kind of normalize, you know, as you said, the experience. For if we're talking about, in a monogamous relationship, a dyad, you have likely the betraying partner and the one that is betrayed, and they might be really different experiences. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Yes. 

Can you speak a little bit about a bit of being lost? You use the analogy of, like, lost in the wilderness.

Joanna Raabsmith:
“Like lost in the wilderness. I think one of the misconceptions is kind of both ways actually can be a misconception: 

Right. Because as you said, it's such a different experience. Right. It kind of makes sense. Like, you would go to York, I would go do my work, and it's this very individualized. We each do our stuff, and then we'll come back together. And the relationship's great work.” 

And personally, I've understood too, some therapists or coaches might start to address the relational dynamics. Maybe too soon. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Exactly. That's the other misconception, is that, oh, it's a relational issue. So we're just going to dive right into couples work and miss the individual pieces. And so either way, you're probably going to get really stuck and realize there are three things at play at all times. There's the individual components of each person and their experience, and then there's the relational component. And none of those end at any point. They all exist the whole time. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
Yeah. And I think another misconception is that a ceasing of destructive behavior equals a repair. You know, I think a lot, and I can name that just for my own journey. That's kind of what I had in my mindset was, is that I knew I was doing something that was hurting our relationship. I knew I was doing something wrong. It was against my values and what I believed in terms of how I wanted to be as a husband. And so my kind of thought was, why am I going to stop that? And once I stop that, we'll be fine. Because it hurt you that I did it. Now that I'm not doing it won't hurt you anymore. And I think that is. That's only the very beginning of the process. 

And so it can be really tempting to want to focus in on, hey, I haven't done that in a while, or I don't do that anymore. And 

“And so we remind people all the time, it's not just what you do, but it's the impact that those things have. And as Joanna said, it's going to be the impact on all three entities. My acting out and choices harmed me, they harmed Joanna, and they harmed our relationship. And so there was going to need to be some kind of reparations, some repair work around all three of those things.”

And if I only want to focus on one, or if I want to put all my eggs in the relational basket and say, hey, as long as our relationship is good, I'll be fine. It's just not how it works. You've got to make sure that you're attending to all three of those things. 

I appreciate you both speaking to the multiple layers, as well as where people might put a lot of their attention and focus. And I can appreciate it's a daunting, completely for some shattering, overwhelming experience, and to orient on harmful behaviors. Okay. That I can do and just stop. And also, you're really highlighting the impact and not to dismiss or miss the opportunity to look at the impact on all those layers. And I guess I would also wonder with you about the driver. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Right. 

What's the underlying part that perhaps I see some of these behaviors, harmful behaviors, more like coping or protective strategies? And so if we're not looking at the deeper layers, which can be terrifying. Right? 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Yeah. 

Yeah, Right. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Absolutely. 

So sounds like you're both agreeing to that. Do you want to call it? 

Matthew Raabsmith:
Absolutely. We talk about kind of the tip of the iceberg. I mean, the things that you're seeing that are showing up in the relationship are usually just a small thing. There really is so much more. And that is what, a lot of times, is going to determine whether the relationship is going to work: are we going to deal with the underlying issues? The things that are not going to go away. Because I'm able to stop one behavior. Because a lot of times all I'm doing is the 12 steps or the recovery. The world likes to call it white knuckling. You know, we kind of call it like whack-a-mole. Because I can maybe stop this. 

I can put these blockers, or I can make these boundaries in my life, and I won't do this behavior anymore. But another behavior is going to kind of rise in its place. It's going to show up. And that's something we see a lot of times betrayed spouses will pick up on, and they'll kind of be like, well, I know they're not doing this, but I don't feel any better in the relationship. Like they're angry now, or they're very dismissive or shut. They're doing something different that's still coming from that same fuel that's been kind of unresolved. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Yeah. And usually if it was just that behavioral modification, at some point that behavior is likely to come back if you haven't dealt with those deeper issues. And like Matthew's saying, the partner's body can usually sense it. Right. They can sense, ooh, my spouse is not in a healthy place. And the last time they're not in a healthy place, here's what happened. They betrayed me. And so I know that they're set up to step back into that kind of behavior. And there will never be safety built in that kind of a relationship. 

It says, though, the quality hasn't. The quality and the dimensions of the relationship haven't really shifted. The expression might be altered, but it's not the energy or the dynamic that is very much still present, which can be unnerving. So I want to ask, as we start to pivot towards the pyramid- the intimacy pyramid that you and your co-author designed or developed together- when you're talking about this level of work. I understand sometimes when the betrayal is found out, or there's something that gets revealed, it might not coincide with somebody's readiness or their willingness; then can you speak to that? 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Yeah, absolutely. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
It will never happen with your rental. You never will be. And even if you confess it, you won't fully be ready because it is a life-altering experience. It's life-changing for the person who is betraying. Right. Their world shifts, but it's also going to be life-changing for the person who is caught in this really destructive cycle. And what is helpful is that we see the level of damage that gets done. That does help people wake up quickly. We see a lot of people who probably weren't ready for the work, but the implications of their actions kind of don't give them a choice. They realize, hey, there's a lot on the line. Our marriage was on the line, and I realized this isn't something I could play around with. 

This isn't something I can get to in a couple of years. It's what I am going to do right now because it's going to be the thing that gets to determine whether I get to keep living this kind of life I've built, the thing I've invested in. And we get a lot of couples who've been together for multiple decades. They have kids; sometimes they have grandkids, and they don't want to lose all that. And they're saying, hey, we've put this in, we've put some work in. We want to make sure that we get out of it some of what we put in. And they get real motivated real quick and ready to do the work, even though the work's hard. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Yeah. 

And it can be a little bit of a misperception that one could easily infer or interpret that the betraying partner doesn't really love or doesn't really care. But that's not the way it works. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Not at all. In fact, so many couples we work with, they both love the relationship. Right. The relationship they had built. They have friends and family pointing to them is like, wow, they're the model couple. They really have a life and a relationship that they adore. And I think that's why so many people we work with are willing to do the work to fight for the relationship. Right. If there was contempt, if there was hatred, if there's right, anything like that, those are typically the couples that don't seek help; they get divorced, they move on, because that was there. But the ones in it, fighting for it, doing this work, it's because they know they have something worth saving. And that, because often the compulsivity of the addiction or the acting out behavior was something they felt out of control. 

They couldn't stop even though they realized it was hurting. Or maybe they compartmentalized it out so they wouldn't know the reality of the impact it was having on this thing they really love. And so that is so important for the healing process. It's also really harmful for the betrayed partner. You would think it would be better than the other way, but there's a piece of it that hurts so much because they're going, wait, I think thought you loved me because you showed up in ways that communicated it. But now I have to question that. Right now I'm not so sure because of the lengths that you would. You were willing to go that now are harming me. 

And how can I ever trust a relationship in the future if you're showing up in loving ways, which now I know can disguise or hide this whole other life. And so that does add sometimes a tricky layer onto that healing restoration process for a couple. 

Yes. Incredibly painful. And also the discernment because it's possible that the love and the felt sense of what was good was present, but also the spidey sense of like there's something that feels a little odd, like that also was there. Right. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
So it's like catching up. 

But it is so disorienting and so shattering to what we believed or were investing in and envisioned for. But really it sounds like taking it down to kind of ground zero, if you will. As you talk about in building, which is one last reflection here, it just sounds like, Matthew, based on what you were saying, it's like pain is unfortunately one of the biggest motivators that gives us that wake-up call. And I'm just deeply empathetic to what gets activated in that. And I'm also hearing that getting into the practice, like you don't just get ready to do the work; the work starts to help you have some scaffolding to continue to deepen in the work that then builds. So it's almost like starting allows you to be ready. I don't know if that makes sense. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Yes, absolutely. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
Well, and what's really interesting is the way we tend to see this. Jo and I were talking about there are these three things. You've got a betrayed spouse, you've got a betraying spouse, and you've got the relationship. Early on, the work is highly individualized. There are some relational pieces, but they are few and far between. It's mainly about kind of safety and stability in the relationship. And that actually does help because it lets you get after some of those deeper underlying issues without the pressure of having to work relationally perfectly at that time. And so a lot of the work that I was doing in my early recovery was about childhood wounds, trauma, and abuses that I had experienced and how I had left those unaddressed. 

And so I, Joanna, lovingly gave me space in my own therapy, in my own group programs, and the intensives that I was going to work on that and to really address that Joanna was in some ways doing very similar work, but a lot more about what was going on in our relationship, the trauma she had experienced, and how that healing would have to look for her. And so we would be able to talk a little bit about that process. But that individual space did build that scaffolding, and we were able to focus on what those individual pieces of healing are so that we can show up in the relationship differently going forward. And if you short circuit that by just focusing on the relationship, that's where everything starts to fall apart. Because I don't have that scaffolding. 

I'm not ready for that level of complexity. And even that happened in our own relationship. I really focused on kind of this healing journey of addiction and breaking free. I hadn't thought about what it's going to look like to sit with Joanna and the pain that's been. 

And see her face and her pain. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
Yes, exactly. And so I was very defensive in the beginning. I would want to point out how much I changed, or I would want to talk about. But I was hurt too. There was a lot of this where, as I said, because we were kind of flying blind, we didn't realize, like, no, there needed to be some more support structures in place, some more healing individually to be able to handle those harder conversations. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
I mentioned that first level is honesty. And that was the first step we took as a couple that was so important. And so what it really looked like was Matthew getting honest with himself first, breaking denial, taking a look at his own story, like doing some of that work for himself so he could then bring that into the relationship and be honest with me. And so it always kind of starts with self and then moves into the relationship. 

One of the things that's coming up for me, I'm a big fan of both secure attachment and all of the ways in which we respond to our partner that cultivate secure functioning. But I also very much appreciate the differentiation and the process of holding on to self, tolerating discomfort, being able to connect with what is true. Right. What is real for the inner experience. And I think they require one another. But sometimes couples get into this notion, and I think you speak about some of the misconceptions or ways in which people can be misguided a bit. And there are a lot of models around. You love your partner. You give to your partner like you want to. So it almost primes for this. Some people struggle with the word codependency or enmeshment or kind of. I think in Schnarch's language, the kind of gridlocked. But it's like we're trying to achieve the symbiotic unity of same.

Joanna Raabsmith:
Absolutely. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
It becomes like a caretaking relationship. 

Yes. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
Where. And this happens. And you can see how this really plays out in couples who've experienced this infidelity. The betrayed partner can look at someone who's struggling with either addiction or compulsive behaviors, and they may take on, hey, I need to help this person. Because if I don't. They may fall apart in ways that really harm our relationship. And so. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
And sometimes even go to therapists who say they need a connected relationship to heal their addiction. Right. And you're asking that traumatized, betrayed spouse to then care for them enough that they can heal. And that is just not appropriate. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
And it creates this kind of parent-child dynamic where they're. And then what's interesting is often I will hear from betraying spouses in that kind of dynamic. They have high resentment. They feel like they're being controlled. Right. There's not a sense of, I don't feel like someone's taking care of me. I feel like someone's controlling me. 

Yeah. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
What's interesting is it can also flip the other way. I work with a lot of betraying spouses who think their job is, I've got to heal her. My job is to heal everything about her and make everything okay. I'm like, that's not going to work either. 

Yes. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
Right. And so there is. These are the pitfalls, I think, of this process. And none of us were trained for this. Right.

And so this is part of why we got into this work, because we're like, there needs to be some clear guidance that helps people do this process because people are really resilient. That's what we see.

I have seen spouses who have been betrayed more than you would ever imagine show up, patient, compassionate, supportive, encouraging. Right. And you think, like, how do they do that? But they just do it. And I see people who have been stuck in behavioral patterns for decades change and transform and heal. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
And so part of it is, like, it can work if you've got some of the good processes in place, if you're kind of avoiding some of those pitfalls. 

Agreed. And I would add, too, I feel, in addition to what you both are saying, the betrayed partners, sometimes in that kind of caretaking, they feel as though they can't really be honest because it's too painful, or I feel shame. So I'm going to hide these certain parts of myself because I love them, I don't want to hurt them, but it's like it's contributing. And I kind of get the sense of, like, we're dismantling this old. It's counterintuitive. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Right. 

That, like. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Yeah. 

To bring the thing that might be hard to hear is actually the more loving thing, and that we're potentially creating a new relationship. Like, we have a lot of elements that we want to take with us, but then we're going to reconstruct. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Yes. Yeah, well, I think that's why it's so important to start with that differentiation and go, can you hold onto yourself while you step relationally into some really scary areas together? Or are you going to lose yourself, get dysregulated, start showing up in harmful ways? That actually breaks down the secure attachment at that point. And so once there's been a little bit of security built in, each stepping into that hard place in relationship, they can hold on to themselves and actually go deeper and more vulnerably with each other in a safe way, which starts to build that secure attachment, which is what they're wanting, which is what they're. 

Exactly. And I think having some framework that holds a container that gives guidance to this resilience. Because when people feel hopeful, they're willing to tolerate a bit more of that discomfort. They're willing to dig a bit more. But if it's just going to be more of, like, flooding and, like, pain and, like, it's. Well, I still say yes sometimes, but it also is like, so, yeah, well. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
I've had people tell me, like, oh, so my job is for them to be mad at me for a couple of years. Is that right? And you're like, no, that can't be the process; that's not going to get either one of you what you want. And so it is. And that was part of our reasoning with wanting to kind of build a framework, was because we knew a lot of the pieces people were doing were helpful, but they aren't helpful in the wrong order. And that was really what was important for us, is were trying things in our relationship to heal that were way beyond where we were in terms of the actual journey. And so what we have found works best is having those containers to say, this is the kind of relationship we're going to have right now. And that's okay, because this foundation is going to allow us to build onto what's next and what's next with that. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Picture of where we're going. Right. It helps you work through those lower levels that are hard. They're not usually very fun. They're kind of painful, uncomfortable. But when, oh, but that's what gets us to our goal. Okay, I'm willing to do it. I'm willing to step into that. Absolutely. 

And especially for people that have been through the fire and can be testaments to this a bit. Okay, great. So I'm sure people are eager to hear a little bit more. Can you spell louder? Share the description of yes, as. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
Was Joanna talking about? 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Right. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
We've got this triangle, this pyramid, just like Maslow's hierarchy. And we start with the base of honesty, which we've kind of talked about. And part of that, as I said, is the betraying spouse. I'm getting honest with myself, I'm breaking denial, I'm sharing things transparently, I'm doing that proactively, I'm showing up differently. The betrayed partner also takes on honesty. They share the pain and the impact that's happened. It's in that honesty that the big question comes: what do we do with it? Right. And what we see is that next layer of the relationship is all about rebuilding safety. We've rebuilt honesty. I'm honest about what I do, but that doesn't tell you whether I won't do it again or not. That just tells you I know I did it. And so safety is about me learning to deal with those underlying issues so that I can demonstrate that I can show up consistently for the relationship. Right. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
And for the betraying spouse, there's a lot of rebuilding of self-trust in that safety level because oftentimes they've developed distrust for themselves and their own gut. Because in relationships where there's a lot of betrayal, there's oftentimes gaslighting, emotional manipulation, all sorts of other things that go along with it. And in that process, those partners learn to shove down their needs, their voice, what they're feeling, what they're experiencing. And so a big part of that honesty safety level for them is learning to get back connected to their understanding, how to validate their own experience, how to advocate for what they're needing to use their voice. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
Again, for the betraying spouse, it's a lot more about usually kind of responsibility and kind of healthy self-care, basically. Can I show that and can I prove that I can kind of take care of myself? Can I acknowledge the dysfunctional systems I have and dismantle those and build healthier systems? Right. And so a lot of it is like building community where I used to go to isolation, going to therapy, where I used to stuff feelings down and ignore things. Right. Getting coaches and people in my life, mentors who help me to improve, because that's really what will tell someone whether or not I'm trustworthy. A lot of times people really want to talk about rebuilding trust, and what I will do when I'm working with my clients is we need to talk about trustworthiness. That's the really only thing you can do. 

Am I someone worthy of trust? And so that is going to show up in how I live. And when that takes place, when that's built, that's where we see trust reestablished, and that's that next level. And trust is the place where the couple starts to reestablish their relationship. It's more from that place: what is it going to look like for us to do this as partners? We've established that we're kind of viable candidates for that and honesty and safety. We've kind of said, like, hey, yeah, I'm. You could probably depend on me again. I'm that kind of person now. What does it look like to build a new relational dynamic? 

Joanna Raabsmith:
And there's a lot of relational restoration around the betrayal at that level. Starting to lean into their story together now as a couple and going, “Okay, what do we do with the reality of what we've been through?” How do we need to heal that pain together as a team, as a unit? And as they start to do that, they lean more and more into trust. Then you get to that next layer, vulnerability. And that's where they. 

“Before we go there, can I ask you for people who are like, ooh, what does that mean? Can you give an example of the.”

Matthew Raabsmith:
“That trust level? I think one of it is that learning to live differently and bringing that into the relationship. So one of the things that was the case, and we will talk a lot about kind of restitution as a part of that trust building.” 

Joanna, not the doghouse, but like you said.

Matthew Raabsmith:
“Not the doghouse. Right? It's not. This is my punishment. I think what's hard is we live in a Western culture where our justice system is really oriented around punishment. Right. You were going to punish you for your crimes.

So, for instance, Joanna really carried the lion's share of the care of our relationship. For the first few years when I was in my addiction, she was the one who was seeking out resources. She was the one who was asking the questions of, how are we doing? Are we doing well or not? I would often go along with it, but I wasn't driving it. I wasn't fighting for our relationship that same way. So part of my Restitution became can I become a spouse who works for that, whether she works for it or not?” 

Joanna Raabsmith:
“Right.” 

Matthew Raabsmith:
Can I help lead us in that way? And so that looked like her actually taking a step back from the leadership and letting me step forward and kind of doing something new that created us more as equal partners. And so that's an example of what that amends and restitution can be. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Another example might be someone who was very performance-oriented. Identity. Right. And would maybe go control, escape, control, escape, kind of pendulum swing and really toxic ways in the relationship. And for a lot of the clients we work with who are like that, they perform really well at work. And so they spend a lot of time at work to the point where they're missing big milestones with the family; it's clear that work is that priority. And so stepping into that restorative process and trust is going. How do I demonstrate through the choices and boundaries I have around work that my family is now the priority? Right. It's not the addiction that I protected for so long. It's not even work that'll let me escape the intimacy that was so threatening.

But I'm willing to set that boundary and now show up and be present with my family. And so it really depends on the person's story. 

Yes. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
The ways they were stepping out are now oftentimes a clear path. These are now the new ways I get to step in. 

I love this. I so appreciate that in your book you have chapters devoted to each stage to make this more actionable and how to implement, how to be in practice. Separate it. And Joanna, I was wondering if you could speak. You talked about in the safety stage, a shared kind of narrative or how you come together around that. And I'm curious if you're willing to give an example around what that could look like. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Yeah, absolutely. One of the very practical ways we do it with clients is we actually have them write their narrative; we have them sit down and talk through it. And we have a bunch of questions to kind of prompt them. But go, okay. Especially because your experience of the relationship is so dramatically different. Right. Betrayer versus being betrayed. That is going to create disunity and disconnection if we can't start to weave those together. And so it actually is a process of learning to build understanding for my partner's experience and how it does weave together with my own very different experience. As well as then the relational understanding we mentioned. There are always three things. Right? As well as an understanding of this story of our relationship, and we'll actually have them walk through that. 

And in that process, what we love is that usually some things come out where they're like, oh, yeah, we. We're struggling. We're getting really stuck around this thing. And that thing would have got them stuck in other areas that came up in the present. Right. But now we know what it is. We can work through it with them. They can start to heal, create that unified vision. We know that no longer is going to hold power over them in the process. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
I was gonna say this was a really important part for us. And I think for me, I had the idea that we were going to heal from this and never talk about it again. That was the plan, right, that we get through the rebuilding process and no one would ever know. And we didn't tell a lot of people early on. We really didn't. We told about two or three couples for the first year or so, and then very selective after that. And that was my. My hope, right, was that's how it would always be. 

The past is in the past. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
The past is in the past. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Clearly turned out so well, because I didn't. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
Because I was scared of that story. And it was the work for me, a vulnerability to say, what would it look like to accept this as the reality and to not let this story own me, but to accept it as this has been our journey, and that is okay. And it was amazing how healing that process was for me. And so I want to share that, because a lot of times people can think about the only healing work is the work of the person who's hurt or just the relationship. But every step of the way, the work that we did was also incredibly healing for me. 

And so as we began to tell our story for the first couple of times and really coalesce around what our story was like, it was amazing how much less power it had over me, how less scared I was about it, or how much more open I was to hearing Joanna and her experience and how different it was from mine. And so I think just reminding people that each step of the way, when you're doing these pieces of the puzzle, they're going to serve you. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
The relationship doesn't mean you have to get on a podcast and share your story, though. Don't worry if you're having a panic attack. 

For sure. The initial thing I was going to say, it feels like an opportunity to really reflect. And really, here's what I'm understanding. Here's how I'm digesting. Here's my awareness about my experience and our relationship. The kind of three levels or three areas, aspects. But then to get in alignment a bit around how we're aligning in this and whether this is right. And then an opportunity to work it out when you notice, okay, perhaps we're not understanding certain aspects of this. It's really a highlight to say, oh, we have a little bit more to explore here, or perhaps there's a bit more to dig in, and okay, so this seems like very useful as people are on this journey and what they're creating together. And do you want to share what comes after the? Well, it sounds like, just to reflect, the trust starts to emerge. Is it a bit of a felt sense to you that like it's not even. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Absolutely, it is. And this one's a little tricky because you, it is very much a feeling in your body. Like you can just feel it, especially for the betrayed partner. You can feel when that trust starts to shift, and it's not all or nothing. Right. It's very much on a spectrum, and so it's built a little bit by little bit. And so we really work on a high level of like body awareness, emotional awareness. So they can notice as that trust is being built, and they can talk about it and reflect on it and also be able to name the areas where we're struggling, and trust isn't being built in this area. And so let's focus on that and work on that as a couple. 

But yeah, but it's really interesting when a partner I'm working with will just one day show up in session and say, I just realized that I haven't tensed in like months when we've been in a tough conversation. Right. It's just like the awareness of, like, whoa, I feel completely different when we sit down and talk or when we're physically close to one another. And so yeah, those are exciting. 

Beautiful. Yes. And I think the thing I was going to say, Matthew, in response to what you were saying is it might relate to self-trust or when you're talking about this narrative and wanting initially to kind of not relive that story or kind of embody that more fully. You know, it's interesting. It occurs to me that perhaps the offenses or the injuries become perhaps less the relevant piece, but more of who I'm becoming in the process because it's. It could be easy to want to say, well, on the spectrum or the continuum, it wasn't as egregious as this. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Right. 

But it's like, all of that's still a bit qualifying. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Right. 

So if it's actually, and it may even discredit it if other people are listening, that, like, oh, they did do that thing, right. That maybe is on the continuum or egregious, but the origins of it come perhaps from a similar place. And so to have this self-trust around, like, this is part of my process, but who I'm at in the self-trust- does that resonate? 

Because you see, like, how far you've come. Right. That's usually by the time they're doing this, there's been some significant changes, which is then so empowering because they realize we get to decide what our narrative looks like when we sit down and do this exercise in a year: what do we want to be writing about? Well, we get to make those decisions moving forward. About individually, who we're becoming, but also as a couple, what kind of relationship are we building together? 

Matthew Raabsmith:
Yeah, and it's. We love this acronym, NATO, not attached to Outcomes. And it's amazing that 

For a lot of betraying spouses, they just want to be known as something other than just the betrayer. But they'll spend so much energy trying to get that outcome right. Why won't you see this? Why won't you see that? 

Joanna Raabsmith:
That. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
But it's incredible. Like, when they stop searching for that, it kind of naturally comes there. And we see this both on the relational level. It can be really tempting with our framework to think, oh, okay, we got to work on what's next. We got to think about what's ahead. And we've actually found the most successful couples just work on where they're at, and then they naturally float into that next level.

And so it's one of those pieces that if you can kind of turn off that outcome part of your brain and turn on that process part of your brain, it's amazing how different the experience feels, and it's amazing how much more successful you are, you know, like, yeah. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
And so. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
So I have to, like, work with guys all the time. They're like, okay, don't care. No, that's not what I mean. Right. You care. But it's not about, do I get this thing? It's about can I show up in this way that's going to do. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
I get this thing. It's coming from a place of control and dysregulation. Right. And that's never going to produce a good outcome in a relationship with another person who I'm now trying to control or manipulate into creating this outcome for me. 

Or being overly invested in someone's view. Right. Or the story or the identity that I think someone's associating me with. “And the redirection, as you both have been continuing to say, is to find the integrity and the ownership from within and the practice, and then you naturally, as you said, it starts to just evolve and be beautiful. Okay, so you mentioned vulnerability is the next.”

Joanna Raabsmith:
Yeah. 

Would you like to share more about that? 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Yeah. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
“Vulnerability really does flow out of trust. When you build a trusting relationship, it opens up, really, what we call a window of tolerance.” It allows you to go to places that you couldn't before. And what's really interesting, in couples who are healing from betrayal, this will look like some deep grief work, some sadness, some couples sharing grief, hard, difficult emotions. It will actually also look like joy. For many betrayed partners, one of the things they're most scared about is finding hope again, like kind of letting go. And so joy can be a very threatening experience, and you need to be in a place of great trust to be vulnerable enough to bring that joy back in your life. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
And you need that self-trust like we're talking about earlier, to let yourself go to those places emotionally. Right. And so that's why that work is so important before then relationally. Now I can step into that place with another person, and we can go to those emotional places together. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
And so a lot of what we're helping couples with at this level is a lot about emotional attunement. Not just can I like be in the room when someone's emotional, but can I actually connect to it and not lose myself? I can stay with who I am, but allow and be next to and engage with someone right in that process with them. And it's really incredible to see that shift because a lot of early on it's kind of like, okay, I'm not going to run away, but later on, as you start to work into invulnerability is I'm not going to just run away, but I'm going to step in. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
That's where we talk about couples: grief versus just the betrayed married partner sharing the pain, the impact, the grief, loss that they've felt. And like Matthew's describing, the trained spouse being able to be present and maybe even empathetic about that pain. It's a very different experience when they actually step into that place of grief with the betrayed spouse and say, no, I actually feel that pain with you. 

And ultimately, individuals thrive when they're insecure attachments. And so neither person was thriving. And so being able to experience that grief together is pretty game-changing for most couples. 

Oh my gosh. And this is huge. Coming back to the vision of what people long to feel that in their deepest, most core either emotions or attachment longings to feel responded to, attuned to- that brings closeness and intimacy in that. I mean, it will change; it'll be moving mountains. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
Yes. And what's really interesting that we see is spouses who are betrayed in this space, when it's done right, we will see them naturally start to be empathetic and deeply connected to the grief of their betraying spouse. And the things that shouldn't have happened, their traumas, the pieces that contributed to this puzzle. It's no longer this kind of you or me and why this happened, but it is about it shouldn't have been that way. And we can join in that kind of collective grief, that lament; we help couples lament because it's in that lament that they were also able to go. And it's not the only thing. We look at what we have now; we look at what it feels like to be able to see and know each other. And that is, like you said, what we've always longed for. 

And it's funny, like couples who do this work, they look different than couples who don't. And we tell people all the time, like, I don't, I wouldn't recommend this as a route, but if you found yourself on this road, like, you're going to be surprised at how good it can be on the backside because you've learned the value of investing in work that really pays off. It's hard at first, but as you really start to do it over and you build the rhythms for it, you're going to see that dividend pay more and more over time. 

Yeah. Thank you both so much. It occurs to me that while you've really laid this out, it is supportive in the healing process, particularly after a betrayal trauma or some major rupture. It's also really helpful for people who are just maybe feeling some level of disconnection or distracted. And so it applies in a healing journey of cultivating more intimacy. But it occurs to me that they're not so separate, that they're picture meaning. And sometimes in life we might like, oh, yeah, I need to have a real ownership, honest, transparent moment. Like, I'm not sure I've been really like, revealing this. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
That was the great part. As we started using it with clients, we're like, oh, I think this is just what every relationship needs to build thriving intimacy. Like, it's the same path to get there whether you experience betrayal or not. And so we use it with all of our couple clients, whether or not betrayal is a part of their story. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
And what we see is that one of the things we like about the framework is that as we build a successful relationship, it doesn't mean there's not work still to do. As you said, some of our strongest couples will take a beat and look back and go, you know, we could probably build. 

And because we've got this healthy connection, that's okay. We don't. We're not freaked out by the fact that there's still work. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
It becomes a tool that our couples and we can use really easily to self-assess our relationship, where we're at and what we need to work on. And so we're constantly doing it as well. Right. We use this framework in our own relationship, going like, oh, hey, we haven't been connecting as much. And so that's hurting the honesty and transparency of our relationship. How do we carve out some more time to create connection and make sure we're not missing each other for whatever reason? 

That feels more like relational hygiene. Right. Noticing that perhaps there's a little bit of room here where some of these bigger ruptures, it's like, stacked and snowballed and compiled so much that there's a lot, maybe more to address. Yeah. And okay, I love this. It's interesting. When I was reading your book, and I was looking at just the pyramid, and I hadn't really dove into the content or spoken with you both yet, I was like, oh, honesty. “I often feel that is taking an emotional risk and some level of vulnerability. But talking to you, I was reflecting the differentiation, and it sounds like it might be vulnerable, but there's a bit more focus on holding one's own ground and space.” 

Joanna Raabsmith:
“Yes.” 

“And then the vulnerability is like more of the openness of, like, showing my belly.” 

Joanna Raabsmith:
“Like, yeah, okay, 100% it is.” 

Matthew Raabsmith:
“And that's a hard thing to realize, and especially for people who have spent a lifetime protecting themselves.” 

Joanna Raabsmith:
“Right.” 

Matthew Raabsmith:
“Feeling unsafe and then hiding in that way. And so recognizing that my honesty isn't dependent on safety. My honesty is a choice that I make because I know I'm responsible for whatever comes out of my honesty. And so I'm sharing my honesty, not because I'm trying to get something from you. Support, understanding. I'm sharing my honesty because it's what helps me to be the best person that I am. Some things are vulnerable: wounds, fears. Right. Deeper things that I'm going to share with trustworthy people in environments that are designed to handle that. And hopefully our relationship at some point will be that container as well.” But it's okay if it's not. Early on in my recovery, I was diving in deep with therapists, with men in support groups, so that I could then share that with Joanna. 

I could bring that to her one day. And I think just normalizing, that's okay if that's where you are in the process. If you're at an honesty level, start there. Yeah, there's. That's not going to hurt you, and it's going to help you build that vulnerability one day. 

Yay. Thank you. Thank you. I know we're, like, pushing up against time. So talk to people about the book that you wrote together and with. Is it Dan? 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Yes. Dan Drake wrote a book, Building True Intimacy: Creating a Connection That Stands the Test of Time. It's on Amazon. It goes through all of the levels of the pyramid that we named, as well as we have kind of three components we pulled out in each level to highlight that really gets at how to actually build honesty. Right. Because that's a big concept. It's great to say it, but what does it actually look like in relationships? So helping couples. And again, this is for all couples, not just couples who experience betrayal, who want thriving intimacy. And so that's a great resource if you want to dive deeper into a lot of what we've talked about today. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
Yeah. And if people ever want to get in touch with us or get connected, they can always go to raabsmithteam.com; that's the easiest way to find us. One of the things we love to do is we love to give away free resources because we get it; it's just helpful to have something. And we created a daily check-in because we know that honesty is really where everything starts. So we wanted to kind of start there. So they go to raabsmithteam.com/free. They can download that check-in. They get a little guide, and we show them kind of how to use it. Encouragement to really get it integrated. Because what we see is that this is a lot more about the day-to-day rhythms. In our Instagram account: instagram.com/theraabsmithteam.

This is about doing little things every day for the good of your relationship rather than these big overt kind of measures. It's can we build that caretaking and that kind of, that stewarding of that relationship daily? 

Building the muscles and the practice and to have our. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Yeah. 

Okay, great. So I'll put the link to that check-in support guide that people can start working with. That's a real tool that is very actionable and a good place to start. I'll also put the link to your website as well as the link to your book, and people can find it on Amazon, probably anywhere where they get their books. So thank you both so, so much. I have really enjoyed what you've shared and having you on. 

Joanna Raabsmith:
Thank you so much for having us. 

Matthew Raabsmith:
We enjoyed it very much.