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The paradox of intimacy is that our yearning for closeness often puts us at risk of pain, creating a delicate dance between connection and self-protection. As we draw near to those we love, our natural defenses can surface—sometimes in ways that inadvertently push each other away, leaving us feeling misunderstood or isolated even in our most important relationships.

In this episode, the conversation dives into this very dilemma, exploring how our protective instincts can unintentionally create distance within our most cherished bonds. Listeners will discover why vulnerability feels so risky, how to recognize when their own “bodyguards” are at play, and practical paths to move from defensiveness back toward genuine connection. Through relatable stories and actionable guidance, the episode offers tools to nurture intimacy, strengthen repair, and foster lasting emotional safety in partnership.

Dr. James Cordova, Professor of Psychology at Clark University, is the developer of The Relationship Checkup, a relationship healthcare intervention designed to be the relationship health equivalent of an annual physical checkup. Dr. Cordova is the founder and president of Arammu Inc., a university-based relationship healthcare company created to disseminate The Relationship Checkup and evidence-based relationship healthcare throughout both military and civilian populations. He is also the author of the recently published book, The Mindful Path to Intimacy.

Episode Highlights

04:08 Porcupine nature and need to snuggle.

08:12 Learning to stay vulnerable and mitigate defenses.

10:05 Fight, flight, and the challenge of staying connected.

16:10 Finding humor and forgiveness in everyday annoyances.

17:09 Little hurts, unspoken needs, and the risk of disconnection.

23:39 Curiosity and compassion for your partner’s inner world.

30:43 Understanding personal defense mechanisms.

31:29 Choosing vulnerability over protection.

37:14 The high cost of disconnection and misinterpretation.

38:52 Making relationship health proactive, not reactive.

43:55 Annual relationship checkups for lasting connection.

Your Checklist of Actions to Take

• Identify Your Bodyguards: Become aware of your instinctive protective responses in relationship conflicts so you can notice when they’re taking over.
• Acknowledge Vulnerability: Accept that vulnerability will always feel risky, but that authentic connection requires it.
• Communicate Softly When Hurt: When you feel hurt, express it in a clear and vulnerable way instead of becoming reactive or defensive.
• Seek Repair Quickly: If a rupture occurs, prioritize reaching out for repair—apologize, listen, and reconnect as soon as possible.
• Stay Curious About Your Partner: Practice ongoing curiosity and seek to understand your partner’s experience and changing needs.
• Offer and Receive Forgiveness: When mistakes happen, forgive yourself and your partner, recognizing the common humanity in imperfection.
• Practice Regular Relationship Checkups: Engage in annual or periodic relationship assessments to stay proactive about relational health.
• Value Connection Over Pride: Make a conscious choice to value closeness and repair more than being “right” or protecting your ego.

Mentioned

The Mindful Path to Intimacy (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Marriage, Divorce, and the Immune System (*PubMed Central) (article)

Janice Kiecolt-Glaser

12 Relationship Principles to Strengthen Your Love (free relationship guide)

Connect with Dr. James Cordova

Website: arammu.com

Facebook: facebook.com/RelationshipCheckup

Instagram: instagram.com/relationshipcheckup

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/arammu

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

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LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Doctor James Cordova, thank you for joining us today. 

Thank you for having me. It's wonderful to be here. 

Yeah. And you are a professor and author; you've created and developed a relationship checkup that we'll probably talk about at some point. 

Sure. Yeah. 

And this is something you've devoted a lot of your life's work to. Intimate relationship. How to navigate that. And as I was preparing for this interview, it struck me that oftentimes, in intimate relationships, people are contending with two very basic needs, is how we're wired- one of which is wired for connection, feeling bonded. And the other is the automatic impulse to protect when we feel threatened, or some level. And that tension. And I know you talk about this, and can you share a little bit about how you see that tension? 

Yeah, I love that question. The metaphor that I've just been so entertained by recently has been Schopenhauer’s Porcupine's dilemma. In the metaphor, we're all porcupines, right? Which is just lovely, because I don't know if you watch, like, Instagram reels of porcupines eating carrots. 

And stuff, but I didn't. That's great. 

As it turns out, porcupines are adorable, right? And you just want to snuggle them, right? So, you know, that's part of who we are, right? We are warm-blooded mammals, and we're adorable, and we just want to snuggle, right? There's so much of that, like you were talking about that connection where we just want to be close. We need to be close to feel warm, to feel connected, right? And you know, we're covered in quills, right? That's just, again, our porcupine nature. So the way that Schopenhauer’s presents it, right, it's like it's winter and we're wanting to get in there close to snuggle and be warm, but then it's. It's pokey, right? 

We end up poking each other with those quills, and so we pull out of quills distance; we get away, but then we're cold and lonely and isolated and separate. And then we try to get back in, and we get quilled, and we pull back out, and this is that dance, right, of connection and disconnection. And so, he presents it as the porcupine's dilemma. So this is, we just translate it into. It's the human dilemma: How do we stay close knowing that we need to be close in order to be healthy, in order to be happy? And that closeness involves vulnerability. It involves hurt and the need for repair. And mostly we're not particularly good at that part. 

So, my concern is that for most couples, the resolution to the porcupine's dilemma is a relationship in which they're as close as they can get, but not too close. Interesting. Like as close as they can get, but sort of just flirting at the edge of Quill's distance, but really having a hard time staying inside of Quill's distance. So it's close, but maybe not particularly intimate. 

So tell me more, because as I'm listening to you, I can appreciate this metaphor. The dilemma of the porcupine is so normalizing. I mean, in my mind, and I know from the attachment research, and I know there's a lot of bodies of information as it comes and research as it relates to intimate relationships, but our nervous systems, as humans, we need each other for survival. Right? In young life, it's our parents, and in adult life, it's a romantic partner, typically, or some other attachment-significant person. And our nervous systems see that as survival. And so when I'm hearing you describe it, I guess in my experience, it's a fluctuation and an evolving of where I feel pain. So, in my personalize it in my relationship, early on, I had more fears of abandonment or not being responded to that I wasn't fully conscious of. I mean, I was starting to get a good sense. But in practice, this is where we get triggered or might feel even blindsided by the level of intensity, and to recognize that. But as I fast-forward 20 years, the work that I've done individually and then relationally, the patterns might have a similar flavor, but they look different. So our capacity for closeness is very different than it was initially in these porky prickly places. 

Right.

And so I guess I want to clarify because I'm wondering if some people who are listening might think, oh, we want to find the optimal distance to being and just maintain that. Right. That it's like the sweet spot. But in my experience, it's an evolving and also a process of learning how to negotiate again, both individually and relationally, those porky prickly places. And also, as you said, to have repair, but also how to find closeness. So tell me, is it about finding the right optimal space to coexist? Or what am I? Is what I'm saying resonating with you? 

Yeah. For sure. I love the personal example. My hunch is that, over the 20 years, what you learned. What we learn when we are committed to the value of connection. 

It's that we learn how to stay vulnerable. We learn how to stay open-hearted. And we also learn how to. How do I want to say this? Sort of how to mitigate how we defend ourselves. Right. I sometimes talk about this as,

So, when we first enter into this field of vulnerability that is required to be close to be intimate with somebody else.

And so, we're going to hurt each other when we're vulnerable. And our natural human mammal instinct when we're hurt is some version of fight or flight and protection, right? Exactly. Which is what it serves for, right? 

If I'm hurt and I can chase you away, then you can't hurt me anymore. Or if I'm hurt and I run away, you can't hurt me anymore. Has beautiful survival value, and it's antithetical to connections, right? So the thing that comes most instinctively to us, right. You were grumpy with me, right? And so I'm grumpy with you back, or I hurt your feelings, and so then you hurt my feelings back, and then we just pull away from each other. Like all of that ends up becoming disconnection. 

Ways that we can just show up as, like, well, you. That kind of hurt my feelings, right? Or that scared me, or that made me feel lonely, right. When we can lead with those more vulnerable, protective emotions, then that creates connection. And when we can meet that with warmth, with kindness, with compassion, that creates connection. 

Yeah. 

And that does not at first come particularly easy to us, right? To sort of receive from our partner, oh, you did something that hurt me. Our first instinct is, no, I didn't. Or you're too sensitive or, well, you do it too. You know, we have all these ways of defending ourselves. And the. One of the skills that we develop- I don't know if we want to talk about it as a skill as maybe more as like a value is again valuing connection over pride. Right. So that we're in a. That it just comes more naturally for to us to say, like, oh, I hurt you, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, I can do better in that spot. Right. And to also just be able to say, well, you hurt me. 

And to be able to count on our partner to respond with Oh, I care that I hurt you, and I'm sorry. And I can probably do better. And that's how we stay inside of Quill's distance. If we're in there where we're gonna poke each other and we're confident that we can communicate softly and respond with care and compassion, then we're willing to. 

Stay inside of Quill's distance or access a redo, perhaps. Right, exactly. Sometimes it's not as clean as like always. In a place of managing our reactivity and learning how to respond and being open-hearted. I mean, it's this. I don't know if you've ever spoken with. I think it's Dr. Kathryn Ford, she's at Stanford, and she wrote a book about The Aperture Effect: the openness, closeness. And she's a psychiatrist. So she comes with that medical background of just the ventrals that open and close, and anyway we in at me, I share another personal story about this. But even this morning, like, it's so subtle: the neuroception, the facial expressions, the tone of voice, the nonverbals- this is happening at such nuanced levels and so very quickly that it's likely not as pure as, like, yes or no. 

Like there are levels and dimensions to this. So if we get off track that we can try to find each other in this more grounded place of regulation, openness. 

Right. 

Because I think the other thing that happens as you're describing, the impulse to get defensive and even like, what was the injury? Couples can get really stuck on trying to co-create a narrative. Right. That, like, this is what happened. 

Yes. 

Then it's like people get offended by the characterization, or they disagree, and then they spend a lot of time talking about who did what. But really, what you're saying is, if we can get to the more vulnerable. I feel hurt here; I have pain here. 

Yeah, right. And well, you know, this, like, when couples come to see us in couples therapy, I think sometimes what they're hoping for is that we can help them get close without having to be vulnerable. Because 

And it feels. It's disconcerting. I don't wanna. It can feel almost cloying. But you can feel the bodyguard in all of that. And part of what you're pointing at is, when we sting each other, when we irritate each other, when we disappoint each other, when we frustrate each other, that first reaction is often out the door before we are even aware of it. Right. You know, we snap, we huff. I'm a huffer. And then, our reaction garners a reaction from our partner. So there's that quick little like. 

The image that sometimes comes to mind for me is when the pinball gets stuck between two bumpers. Right. We're just like, my reactivity, your reactivity, my reactivity, your reactivity. 

Yeah. 

Right. 

The ping-ponging. Yes. 

And then being able to. There's a kind of forgiveness. That we cultivate. Oh, look at us being humans. That I think can drop a sense of humor about, oh, we just did a thing, didn't we? Right. Yeah. That I think can evaporate some of the shame. 

Yeah. 

Having to be defended so that we could just be like, oh, we just did a thing, I'm sorry. Right. Or like, that was kind of hilarious, wasn't it? You know, and they're almost always these simple things, like, I don't know if this happens to you, but I sort of think about this as one of the aspects of, like, a wedding vow. Or, like, a commitment vow should be like, I choose you to be the person who will be in my way the most. 

Yeah. 

Right. Where you're just like, we're in the kitchen cooking together or doing something together, and it's like, do you always have to be right in front of the drawer? 

Right, Exactly. 

And that's that porcupine's dilemma. Of course, you're the person that I drew in the most closely. You're gonna be in my way the most. Right. And you're gonna feel me be like, you're in my way. And then you're gonna have a reaction to feeling in the way, and we're gonna do a little thing. Right? 

Yeah, yeah. 

But again, if we're comfortable in that space where we know we can trust each other. 

Yes. 

We've practiced trusting each other. 

Yes. 

Then it's just a thing that we can. Like, it actually can create connection because we can laugh about it versus, like, if we've fallen into this spot where we're not repairing these little injuries. I think what we hope to do more often than not is, like, well, that was just a small thing. Let's just let that be water under the bridge. Or I don't want to create more conflict out of this, so I'm just going to ignore it. Right. And to go back to the porcupine's dilemma, sometimes quills fall out on their own. Right. And the ones that don't go in there that deep, they do fall out on their own, and sometimes they don't. Right. Like, I actually kind of do need to say something like, I need a little healing. Right. It doesn't have to be a big deal. 

It can be a quick thing. But I think in our. Can be a form of, like, conflict avoidance, right. That we're. I'm not seeking repair. I'm not like, I can tell when I hurt you, right. But I'm going to pretend that I didn't, rather than just say, oh, I, you know, whatever it is, like, ugh, I'm sorry. Are you okay? Right. Just like if you're out on the basketball court and you accidentally knock somebody over, you don't say, well, why were you there? Or like, get used to it, right. You just say I'm sorry and you help them back up. So it's just part of playing close. But I think when we're not, when we have developed, I don't want to say this. 

When those little injuries, those little quill pokes, haven't been repaired in this very predictable, reliable, confidence-building way, we become more and more sensitive. We become more and more reactive. Right. 

More and more walled off. Right. 

More and more walled off. 

And that's where you, I think, help people identify the disconnection that can occur, or the emotional. Emotional separateness. 

Exactly. 

If I can comment briefly, I so appreciate you coming back to: Vulnerability is never invulnerability. I think just to really have the frame, and while we might understand it, but to really grasp it, because I think people think, oh, if you find the one, so to speak, or you find the right match, it's supposed to just be harmonious. And sure, there are harmonious, unified intentions and also moments. But also there are times where we are going to be in each other's way or perhaps hurt each other, and that being vulnerable to access, repair, and connection will always be vulnerable. It's not ever that we're going to get to. I mean, in the beginning stages. I think this is where it gets even that much more confusing. It's fueled by projection, our imagination of who that person is. 

And it's fueled by the neurochemicals that are this really big boost of just being like, ooh, this open-hearted, like arms out wide. Right. We just are very in this open space, and it's all the novelty. Like there's just so much that supports that bonding. And as we look at long-term intimacy, when we are talking about what we're saying in the beginning, the need for connection as it relates to survival and the longing to feel known, intimate, that is high stakes, and it will always be high stakes. And you have family, children, like all the other things that couples do together, that significance. “So we just wanted to underscore that with you that it is so important to just have as a frame. It's like a paradigm shift a bit.” 

“It really is. And it creates such an emotionally complex territory. Right. Because when we are in an intimate relationship, when we are in an emotionally close relationship, you actually become more and more the person that I am most vulnerable to.” 

Yes. 

And you are the person most vulnerable to. And inside of that is this paradox where, you know, there's the part of me that wants to. That yearns to be safe with you, to just be my completely authentic self. And I also have to be really careful with you. And those two things can be in competition with each other. Right. Like my authentic self just wants to, like, have a hissy fit. 

Yes. 

Right. But if I have a hissy fit, you're going to get hurt. Right. So how do we navigate that territory? Right. Where the safer you make me feel, right. The more I feel like, oh, I can just sort of. The image that I use here is we're bulls in each other's china shop. Right. You know, and you agree to be in an intimate relationship with me. Right. You're inviting me into your china shop. And I have to know that. Right. And I have to respect that. And that means I have to, one, accept my bull nature. Right. Like, while I am in here, I am dangerous. 

Yes. 

And how I move matters. And I was invited. So that matters. Right. And vice versa. So this is a reciprocal right. Like, I also have to trust that you are a bull in my china shop and to trust that you'll be careful. And of course, you know, a horn's gonna knock over a plate, and I'm not gonna pretend I didn't. 

Right. 

I'm gonna clean it up and fix it. 

I so appreciate this frame because. And also, you're speaking to the complexities because when people have had previous relationship injuries or even some level of trauma at some point in life as it relates to relationships, this can be, as you said, complex. Right. So if my partner did X, okay, that hurt. But it also pressed on a previous pain that is activated. And when you talk about the delicate nature of that inner world and somebody's lived experience, and to have understanding and kind of almost reverence for that, it's really helpful. And then also that we're all bulls because I think the other thing that's quite fascinating to me is often in partnership we choose people that have personality traits that either we have underdeveloped, or that challenge us. Right. And these are like extrovert, introvert, or like various things. 

And I tend to be a little bit more vocal than my husband. I feel comfortable asserting. He has an interesting relationship with asserting. And it's like, oh, like I'm still learning about what it feels like for him. Not so much in our. I don't want to take the time to give an example, but it's like, so we have a friend that's helping us with a deck project, and it's a pretty significant project. And it's. We're all making decisions together anyway. The dynamic, it's been interesting for us to reflect on. 

Yeah. 

But that being said, it's like there could be no harm or foul intended on my part, but just my virtue of being who I am, who I actually maybe feel aligned with and feels healthy for me, could press on him or could activate certain things in him. And I'm not trying to be a bull. It just. The dynamic will be that. 

Right, Right. And that's one of the actually quite potentially lovely things about a long-term intimate relationship. Right. Is that my partner is somebody that I have the privilege of continuing to get to know. Like to stay curious, to not assume that the person that she was yesterday is exactly the same person that she is today. 

Yeah. 

And that 

So in the example that you give, as I imagine it in my own mind. Right. There's that. Well, I know my husband's a little quieter in this spot. Right. Probably feels it's virtuous to be generous. And to, like, I want to err in the direction of. If that's what Jessica wants, then I want that too. And I might have a harder time accessing. But what I really wanted was right. That might feel like, well, that's selfish. And I don't want to be selfish. But then if I'm not voicing that ever, there's a part of me that starts to feel like everybody else matters more than me. 

Or risk feeling heard. Or like this third person's listening to me but not to him. Or there could be various dynamics. 

And then. So how do we check it? Like, knowing that. Right. Or being curious about that. How do we check in with each other? And so I got to say a bunch of stuff about what I wanted, and the contractor listened to me because I'm a man, so. But how about for you? Is there anything that was missing, you know, anything that you feel like, well, I would like this, but I don't want to be a jerk about it? So, like, I know I have to check in with you to make sure I'm not just letting the flow skip past something important. 

Yes. 

So I'm in there just swinging my horns around, happy as hell. Right. That's like, this is a great project, isn't it? Right. And not realizing that. Oh, man, I'm just, like, hurting your feelings all over the place, making you feel like I don't care what you want. Yeah. 

Right. I know we're not getting into the details, so it's less important, but thank you for just acknowledging and understanding, because as we're debriefing, I actually wasn't quite aware of some of what he was experiencing, and we're not touching on it exactly, but in the neighborhood. Right. And I was reflecting on, like, oh, I really want to be mindful of this, and I will forget. Right. It's just we are bulls. We get into our egocentric kind of field of reference, and it's. Even with our most intimate partner, it's hard to always have it front of mind. So just knowing that. So you talked about understanding, so that was something that I got to kind of see underneath. Or his underbelly that wasn't quite visible to me. And then I was like, oh, mental note. 

I really want to remember this, that when he is vocalizing, even if the Maybe the way he presents it, I might feel challenged with, I want to be very sensitive to supporting that there's a voice here that he has a complicated relationship with. 

Right. 

How to do that? So as this relates to the bodyguards, because I love that ref. Just the bodyguards. And you had said there are sometimes when maybe we can find humor. You're speaking about understanding. And I guess I would love it if we could speak about it. Because I think there are many options that people can learn to notice this happening and how to manage in the moment, but also seek repair. Because just even I was saying this just this morning, right. So I was kind of caught up in a project, and I was very focused, and I kind of had a tight window to respond or to deliver. And I typically go to an early workout class, sometimes with my husband. I don't always say good morning before I leave. I'm leaving at like 5:50 or something. 

Yeah. 

So we like to greet each other. And I literally was already so in the zone. He, like, came into my office, and he was like, hi. And I must have given him a look of, what do you want? It wasn't aggressive; I didn't feel it. But I was, like, looking at him like, what's your question? Like, I didn't. 

Right. Like, I'm interrupting. 

Yeah, he made a face of like, well, whatever. And I was like, he just made a face. And I had it. I was able to catch it in the moment of like, oh, he's trying to say hello and trying to say good morning. He didn't tell me that, but I was able to catch it. And then I was like, okay, wait, hold on. And then I went and had a moment of like, hug, embrace, good morning, how'd you sleep? Those types of things. And it was a moment of repair. But I could have taken offense at his snarly face. Right. 

Yeah. 

And. 

Right. 

“So talk to us about some options here. You're saying bid for connection, maybe in a moment of tension, make a joke. And sometimes people are regulated enough to do that. Other times, we're misreading each other. So what are some other strategies you help people work with the bodyguards and the relationship?” 

“It's such a great question. I think the awareness is its own action. So I think one thing is you, me, anybody who might be listening to this. You have bodyguards.” 

“Yeah.” 

“So the first step is to know what, who your bodyguards are. How they show up. Like, some of us- sometimes I talk to couples about this. For some of us, our bodyguards are like the roadhouse bouncer. They just get in there and kick ass. That's their job; that's the fight bodyguard. And for some of us, our bodyguards are like the Secret Service. They come grab us, and they take us off to an undisclosed location. And I have to know who my what kind of character my bodyguards are. And that my bodyguards love me. Like, their job is to protect me, and they take it seriously. Right? But, like, they just work for me. They don't care about my relationship. No, Right. It's like, move fast and break things. That's the bodyguard sort of mantra, right?” 

And protect at all costs. The key here, awareness, is its own action. When I know my bodyguards are going to get out the door really fast, that's their job. And sometimes, I don't know, like, I don't wake up to their presence and what they're doing until the roadhouse is like, chairs are broken, tables are overturned, right? But as soon as I wake up to it, then I remember I'm actually the boss. They work for me, right? And the image that I use with couples is: you get to sort of walk up to your bodyguard, put your hand on his or her shoulder, and say, it's okay, buddy, I got this. You can go take a smoke break, and then the authentic you gets to come back. Right? But the humanness of that is sometimes the bar is a mess by the time. 

Sometimes you catch it, right? Like, oh, something threatening is coming in the front door. And you're like, I got this, buddy. So it doesn't even become a fight. Sometimes you catch it right in the middle, like, the whole thing's going off, and you're like, I need to take a breath. And when we've got language for it, we can say, oh, man, I let my bodyguards go a little crazy there, didn't I? Okay, sorry about that. Give me a minute, then I'll come back. Yes, but we need to be able to forgive ourselves and each other in that spot and just, like, revel in our common humanity, right? You've got bodyguards. I've got bodyguards. Sometimes they go at each other, but they're not. If we let them be in charge, they will tear our relationship up. If we can. 

We're not trying to fire them; we just want to assert that we're. 

Actually, the boss, right? 

So that we can connect again. 

And if we have language, they're gonna take over. 

Oh, yeah. No, they will. They do not care about our connection. They care about keeping me safe. Right? And so that's where we end up in relationships where most of our interactions are sort of snapping at each other, or most of our interactions are very diplomatically controlled. Right? Our relationships become either volatile. Hot. Volatile. Or withdrawn and cold, or they move through phases. 

Yeah, yeah. 

And again, not to oversimplify it, but when we can recognize that the part of me that wants to connect is being held back by the part of me that wants to protect me. Then we've got some work to do. Right. Because that always feels risky because I'm. I just feel safer behind my bodyguard. Lonelier. 

Yeah. 

Disconnected. More separate, but safer. And to usher my bodyguard out into the back alley to take a smoke break is exposing. But if I can do that enough, I have the opportunity to learn. By doing that,

When I'm always relying on my bodyguards, it's not. 

No, the bodyguards are doing all the work. 

Yeah, exactly. “But when it's like, I can be hurt, and I can recover, I can hold that, I can communicate that. Right. I can seek repair; I can receive repair. If you don't in a position to repair with me, I can just have my hurt. Like, look at me. I'm not bursting into flames. I'm not developing third-stage cancer. I just feel hurt. Like, I can do that.” 

Right. 

That's strength. 

Right. Tolerating that discomfort, which is not easy work. And also the strength that can get developed both within a sense of self and also in relationships. Because if we have our bodyguards on duty all the time, our partner really can't reach us or respond to us, or we can't really feel seen and known. Like you were saying, the loneliness, or even the opportunity to take a risk and test: will they show up for this? 

Right. But this is why the complexity of this is why we will never be out of business. 

Yeah. Right. 

There are so few places to actually get to practice this too. So many of the ways in which we've learned to protect ourselves have a fish and water dilemma in them. Right. Where, like, even I don't know that I'm doing this. 

Yes. 

And this is a hard thing for people to hear, but they're listening to your podcast, so they're already most of the way there. Right. We need guidance. We need mentors. We need just somebody who's outside the system. Who's got some training and some expertise. To help us develop a skill set that is absolutely emotionally counterintuitive. 

Yes. 

Right. 

Become open-hearted, stay vulnerable. That does not come naturally to us. And we all need guidance in this. 

No. And I know we're winding down here, but I would also say, as we are learning to notice and recognize our bodyguards, have that awareness, as you were describing, then being able to have some discernment around wielding strength, giving my bodyguards a break. How to enter into this work, as you're saying, perhaps with some support or guidance, but to start to do this more vulnerable, curious self-regulation, reaching that's so important. But also, how I know we're not even doing justice to the cost of not doing it because, like, if we start interpreting our partner. Right. And then there's all this compounding effect. And what I wanted to say is this, because it relates to the counterintuitive. So we're talking about the individual work of noticing one's own bodyguards, but also our partner, as you said, has their bodyguards. 

And it's very on the face value of what it looks like on the outside. 

Yeah, exactly. 

It's very easy to interpret, oh, they don't care. Or that was disrespectful. Or all these things that are actually more, look, feel personal. But what's on the inside is often very different. 

Exactly. Yeah. 

Right. And so it is counter to what we have a lot of data points that would lend to this is why they're doing what they're doing, but to be curious about their bodyguards and what's going on the inside as well. 

Exactly. Right. So that's a real skill set to be able to see that what I'm interacting with right now is my partner's bodyguards, and to be able to see around their shoulders so that I can actually see my partner and who they're protecting. 

Right. 

And if I can have a conversation with her, we're gonna get somewhere. You touched on this a little bit. But the fundamental. I mean, what, I don't know if I'll call this a pet peeve, my hobby horse, my soapbox in this spot. Is that much too often, much too commonly, we think about connection. We think about relationship. We think about intimacy as almost like poetry or art or, you know, the icing on the cake, but not really the cake itself. And we do a disservice to ourselves and the entire world because what we know, as close to as for a fact as science ever gets, is that the quality of our connection affects everything. 

I'm most impressed often because it's just so powerful for folks, the work that Janice Kiecolt-Glaser has done. Right. In terms of showing the direct effect of relationship to Stress on our immune system functioning, right. There is this direct effect on our physical health. Our immune systems don't work as well when we're not happy in our relationships. We age faster, right. We recover from illness less quickly and pick up a mental health issue. The quality of our relationship is either helping, or it's hurting. It's never neutral. And like we're just saying, the entire territory is so complex to navigate this porcupine's dilemma, and we're left to DIY it, to try to do it ourselves. And with no training, right. With no opportunity to gain and practice skills, we're just reacting, right? 

And doing our best, but mostly reacting, which is just, you know, which ends up, more often than not, undermining that connection, which then undermines our mental health and undermines our physical health and undermines the wellbeing of our children. And the only professional help, the only professional guidance available to us is tertiary couples therapy, which most people won't go to, period. Those that will go won't go until it's been hurting for a long time. So for half of them, it'll be too little, too late. Right. 

I think it's changing a little bit with the information age. But I would say historically, you're absolutely right, but I think, you know, people are- there's a little bit more awareness about these principles. But yes, I absolutely. 

I think you're right that 

And my sort of professional soapbox is that I want us all to. To start reconceptualizing our relationships as part of our health system. 

Yes. 

So that if you only went to the dentist when your teeth have been hurting for years, if you only went to the doctor when you've been feeling sick for years. But we only go to seek couples counseling when we've been suffering for years. And I want to be able to help us all shift towards a prevention and proactive care model. That is, we're going in for regular annual relationship marriage checkups, whether, you know, just like I go to the dentist, whether I think I need it or not, because that's what'll actually keep us healthier in the long run. Right. 

Right. 

But preventative care is really, I think, the cutting edge of the profession. And we're only beginning to put the situation, to put the platforms in place that make getting regular preventative relationship health care easy. But I'm hoping that, like, having conversations like this will help to start to convince both couples and providers that preventative relationship healthcare is actually the way. 

I'm absolutely in agreement with you. I think this is one of the impetuses for the podcast I started in 2015: just people having access to these principles more proactively. But you've developed a whole relationship checkup to support this preventative effort for relational health. Would you like to tell people a little bit more about that? 

Sure. So the relationship checkup is designed to be the relationship health equivalent of your annual physical health checkup, your dental health checkup. Now we've got mental health checkups, all in the principle of a checkup is to catch us while we're healthy and keep us healthy, or to catch a process that could lead to ill health early and return us to health simply as well as to catch us when we're really sick, even though we might not know it and get us into more significant care when we need it. But in the absence of regular checkups, right. A lot of deterioration just sort of compounds on itself. So that was the thing that really stood out to me when I first started working in the field: that, you know, all we had was tertiary care. 

And, you know, it just struck me as a huge gap. So I developed- we developed a relationship health checkup, a marriage health checkup. And it's just two sessions. It's strength-based, it's action-oriented, and it's designed for all couples. 

For couples that have been together for a long time but feel like we're doing pretty good, but, you know, we've got the things that we get into, or for couples that are like, we're struggling, and we're not sure how to move forward. So for any couple along that continuum from blissfully happy to severely unhappy, or from newlywed to, you know, golden anniversary, getting regular checkups is what we're prescribing. 

And the process that we've set up- these two sessions that are sort of assessment and feedback is the protocol that we've been studying with research for 25 years now. And the beautiful thing about it is we've just got tons of data showing that just this very brief checkup can create both fast and lasting positive change in couples' relationships. So that's, you know, my blue sky vision, right, is to help make relationship healthcare available to everyone, everywhere, and have it be just as simple as any other healthcare that we might seek. 

Our lives and where might people find how to do this? 

So the easiest place is on our website. It is arammu.com: A.R.A.M.M.U. Arammu is ancient Sumerian for love. And if you want to contact me directly, it's jamesarammu.com. Excellent. 

I'll make sure to put the link on today's shownotes. And you also wrote a book. Do you want to say the name of that book that might relate to some of what we've talked about here today? 

The book is called The Mindful Path to Intimacy: Cultivating a Deeper Connection with Your Partner, and it's published by Guilford Press. 

Nice. Excellent. Well, I'll also have the link to that book in today's shownotes. I very much enjoyed our conversation today and also really appreciate all the work you've done to contribute to the field and help make this much more accessible. 

Thank you so much, Jessica. It's been a pleasure.