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Motherhood changes everything—and not just in the ways we expect. While welcoming a child can bring immense joy, it also stirs up unseen emotions, hidden wounds, and internal struggles with guilt, shame, and the daunting pressure to “get it all right.” Far from the sugar-coated images often seen on social media, the journey into parenthood can leave many feeling isolated, overwhelmed, and silently wondering, “Is it just me?”

In this episode, listeners are invited to explore the nuanced realities of becoming a parent and the powerful, often unspoken, shifts it triggers within. You'll discover how experiences from your own past may resurface, why feelings of disconnection or being “not good enough” are so universal, and how concepts like matrescence and internal family systems can offer understanding—and real tools—for healing, growth, and creating deeper, more authentic connections with yourself and the people you love.

Dr. Angele Close is a clinical psychologist, mindfulness meditation teacher, and author who specializes in maternal mental health. She uses the Internal Family Systems (IFS) model to support mothers navigating matrescence, helping them release perfectionism, shame, and self-criticism. Her work empowers women to cultivate self-compassion, confidence, and emotional resilience through trauma-informed, compassionate, and evidence-based therapeutic approaches. She is the author of Unburdening Motherhood: A Guide to Breaking Cycles, Healing Trauma, and Becoming a Self-Led Mom.

Episode Highlights

05:21 Parenting challenges with neurodiverse children.

08:08 Parental mental health challenges.

11:43 Struggles with motherhood expectations.

15:27 Pressures and expectations on parents.

16:19 Addressing motherhood burnout.

21:06 Exploring personal growth through motherhood.

24:49 Understanding Internal Family Systems (IFS).

29:24 Understanding self-protective behaviors.

33:42 Understanding the Inner Critic.

39:17 Navigating early parenthood myths.

42:36 Practicing mindfulness and self-compassion.

43:40 Helping moms with healing and guilt.

Your Checklist of Actions to Take

• Pause and Check In: Regularly pause during your day to notice your body sensations, emotions, and thoughts to increase self-awareness and identify when you're getting activated.
• Acknowledge Your Parts: Recognize when protective parts of you (e.g., inner critic, perfectionist, controller) are taking over and name them to yourself to help de-escalate internal tension.
• Practice Self-Compassion: Offer yourself kindness, especially when you notice challenging emotions like guilt, shame, or overwhelm arising in your parenting or relationships.
• Communicate Openly with Your Partner: Initiate honest conversations with your partner about your current struggles, needs, and aspirations as parents and as a couple to foster connection and teamwork.
• Explore and Discuss Family Values: Identify and discuss with your partner the values and beliefs you hold about what makes a “good” parent or partner, noting where your perspectives align or differ 40:05.
• Allow Grief and Vulnerability: When old wounds or unmet needs arise (such as grief while parenting), let yourself feel them and seek supportive spaces, rather than pushing them aside.
• Set Boundaries for Self-Care: Notice patterns of depletion and intentionally set boundaries to prioritize your rest, nutrition, and personal time, even if it means asking for more help or saying no.
• Seek Support and Normalize the Experience: Join parent groups, seek therapy or coaching, or read supportive resources like Unburdening Motherhood to help normalize the challenges and connect with others who share your experiences.

Mentioned

Unburdening Motherhood (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

ERP 261: How To Strengthen Your Relationship From A Polyvagal Perspective – An Interview with Dr. Stephen Porges

ERP 276: Understanding The Need For Both Self-Regulation And Co-Regulation In Relationship – An Interview With Deb Dana

ERP 423: How To Transcend Trauma (And The Effects Experience In Relationship) — An Interview With Dr. Frank Anderson

Shifting Criticism For Connected Communication (free relationship guide)

Connect with Dr. Angele Close

Website: drangeleclose.com

Facebook: facebook.com/angele.close.2025/

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TikTok: tiktok.com/@cyclebreakingmomma

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Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

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Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Doctor Angele Close. It's lovely to have you on the show. 

Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. 

Yes. And you're a clinical psychologist. You're an author, a mindfulness meditation teacher. You bring a lot to your work. I know we're going to be diving into one of your niche topics as it relates to matrescence. Anything you want to say before we get started for people here who are just getting acquainted with you? 

Yeah, I think just, I mainly work with mothers, although I have a couple of fathers in my caseload as well. And parenthood is very passionate about it because my own journey kind of brought me to specialize in this area. I mean, I was sort of a generalist. I worked with couples and adults for 20 years as a psychotherapist, but my own journey kind of landed me here through parenthood and how to help moms and some dads, too. So I guess I would just offer for people to take what lands, take what resonates. “It might, if you're not a mom yourself, it might help you understand some of the moms, or your own mom, or just the broader process of what parenting activates for us and how we relate to ourselves and each other through it.”

Yes. Thank you for saying that. I know one of the things I've said over and over on this show and even was a part of my dissertation was looking at how relationship, intimate relationship, activates so very much in us, even unanticipated, whether or not it's attachment, like longings or fears or previous trauma, and how that can be a teacher, how it can be brought up for healing and for growth. And you're really looking at how parenthood potentially activates even more that we're not fully conscious of. And I appreciate your book, and it helps me and helps listeners here. Sometimes when people are thinking about the transition to motherhood, they're thinking of the early stages of parenting. And you're saying it actually can be at other stages in parenting. Do you want to speak to that? 

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Because, in fact, my experience was fairly smooth sailing. I mean, we wanted three kids. We wanted them close together. We were fortunate. The universe supplied that. Certainly exhausting, because I was so. It was during graduate school that I had my three kids, so I was certainly exhausted and busy. But the parenting and sort of, as you're naming, those triggers where my unprocessed trauma, my little parts, and the challenges that started to really show up as opportunities, which I agree with you on for healing, were when my kids got a little older, when they were sort of at that age. Like, my oldest was nine. So they were like nine, seven, six. And I could tolerate and have a lot of patience for a three-year-old because they don't know any better. 

But then when they. I thought, ” Oh, you should know better, and you should listen to me. Now I should mention also, my firstborn is neurodiverse. “And so traditional parenting strategies and techniques were not working at all with him.” And so it was just like, right in my face. What is happening? And I found myself highly emotionally reactive despite having a background in Emotion-Focused Therapy. Here I was, in mindfulness meditation. I was the opposite. And so that was really kind of the journey of realizing, oh, this 

Absolutely.

I'm curious as you describe that experience of maybe being surprised by what triggers or activation might. And I would love to hear a little bit more about what that could look like, so people can maybe recognize the difference between: is this just developmental stress and adjusting to new stages in parenthood, or is this actually something that's more in me that I wasn't maybe fully conscious of? But before you answer that question, is it possible that I'm thinking of a client in mind who describes having a really positive experience parenting, but now she's experiencing estrangement in her adult child's life, and hearing feedback, and her husband has been greatly pained by this, as you can imagine. But it also seems like there could be opportunity here to look at some of what's coming up for her. 

Do you think that's possible that this could actually not present until maybe even the child is an adult? 

Yeah, absolutely. Because we're relational with our children too. We have a relationship, and so we're growing alongside them. So that's kind of what one of the aspects of matrescence is to understand. 

We're becoming mothers. And I think it varies; for some moms, it's, that tricky time might be postpartum. Of course, we tend to hear a lot more about that. If there are PMADs. And for me, it was kind of like the elementary school years. But you're right nowadays, right? There's no awareness of people wanting to do no contact or estrange themselves from families. 

There's just a lot going on, I think, in our culture around understanding ourselves, our trauma; I don't want to say it's dormant. I would say it's more that we have triggers, too. To answer. I'm going to start to answer that first question. Right. I mean, a lot of what we go through is just kind of normal, exhausting parenting, learning, and growing. But I also believe that the parts of us- this is where my IFS lens will probably come in are the parts of us that helped us adapt and survive through our own childhoods; we tend to just keep them. So as long as they're working- our parts that are people-pleasing or fawning, we might say, if we use this nervous system and stress response language. 

We have parts that kind of help us navigate all those challenges. And so what I would say is the rubber kind of meets the road depending on when those parts, those self-protective parts, are no longer working, or they're being challenged by. In your client's case, the child is coming, has had some sort of awakening or healing or growth, sort of like. 

Difficulty and difficulty, maybe a little too. 

And so their system is sort of getting activated. And if we have that can be so complex.

And then that's how we can really get locked in. And the same is true for partners. Right. Oftentimes that's where we're engaging with each other. Because unless we are feeling calm, curious, and compassionate, and open heart centered, that's what happens is it tends to be blame. It tends to be anger, resentment, all of those kinds of protector systems. That's where we can really get stuck. 

Yes, There's so much involved in this. I appreciate your same relationship. And this can even occur in an intimate relationship. I know our focus is here on parenthood and the ideas around how I want to be as a parent, who I know myself to be as a human. The fear of, risk of- I think this is in any relationship around the risk of losing the relationship or not being good enough, and those kinds of attachment worries and insecurities. 

“Okay, now thank you for speaking to that. So just to organize a little bit. Matrescence. I love that name. I hadn't been familiar with it till I encountered your work. But I love that it's got the ring of, like, adolescence. Like, it's got a developmental process. And I think before we started, I had asked you, ” Is there a similar for men and fatherhood?” 

“And you said, yes.” 

“ Patrescence is what people are writing about now to recognize, which is great, that men go through their own phase and stage of accommodating and adjusting and adapting their identities to now be a parent, which is what happens for moms. And it has been likened to adolescence. When is this? It's very similar.”

We're learning, growing, and changing in every aspect of our life as we're shifting into motherhood. So it's a long phase, and it is developmental, and it is totally normal. And shocking to me. When I discovered the word. When I learned this word, I had already been a mom for nine years, and I was struggling.

Because I was grappling with a lot of internal dynamics of shame, guilt, and feeling torn. There are nuances. Our relationships change, maybe with our friends if we're the first one to have a baby, and suddenly, we feel disconnected. But nobody kind of talks about these nuanced changes. The myths around what a good mom is, we're That we carry them in our subconscious. For me, they're really coming to the forefront. And I was being really hard on myself, feeling like, well, I'm not a good therapist because I'm sort of cutting corners and exhausted here and there in my work, and then also feel like I'm dropping all these balls as a mom. And I know many moms and women feel this way. 

And when I heard this term that represented all of these shifts and changes, I sort of felt half of the shame anyway. And that guilt that I was carrying kind of just, like, dissolved. I was like, oh, this is a thing. This is normal. This makes sense. And all others go through it. So that's why I'm really passionate about getting that word into our language, because it is so incredibly helpful to have that word to make sense of those internal shifts, the ways our relationships are changing. We know that your relationship with your partner or your spouse is going to change now when you bring a baby into the fold. 

Yes. 

So it's incredibly important and helpful. Just like, imagine not understanding adolescence, right. Once we understand, we have studies around it, we have support around it. We have all of that stuff. And so I hope that mothers will get that too. 

Yes. A quick note on the couple expectations. I know that sometimes people who are a bit more informed might not buy in, but there can be the notion of, oh, we're growing our family and the positivity, and all the love and all that is true. But it also statistically is the time when satisfaction and happiness in the couple bond is the lowest, in the child-rearing years. Right. There's a depletion of resources that we can allocate to nurturing our intimate bond. So it makes sense that there would be that correlation. But it does test, and it does very much challenge us. And a couple of other things too. 

You were talking about the layers, and I appreciate, even in your story that you write about in your book Unburdening Motherhood, that there can be life circumstances that can also add complexity to this. And you had shared moving from Canada to the US Right after COVID and the isolation and just not having community, and that these things that we might be experiencing as hardships and that kind of accumulation of it, like, it's easy to be. I'm good, I got this resilience. But maybe we don't always acknowledge the toll and maybe the support that we need. 

“And so even, like, you're saying the word matrescence and the support around it, like, can be this holding, especially when we have all this echo, even if, again, we're not fully buying into it, but imagery in media, and like, it can be this cherry-picked kind of presentation, and it's just like, wow. So it sounds like there's a nice container that you're offering for people that kind of step into.” 

“Yeah, I hope so. And I agree with you. There's so much noise out there. There are a lot of representations of what I would be critical of, and say they're kind of perpetuating these myths that moms are super mom, superhuman. And the expectations right now are so intense on parents.” And we know this. Last year the Surgeon General did a whole review that was just naming how stressed out parents of today are and what to do about it. So absolutely, I think recognizing, yes, it's good to have a gritty mindset, but that's one of the ways we get stuck, especially women, because we are so focused on everybody else taking care of the partner, the husband, the kids, and all of the things that entails. 

And if, in your own work, in your own whatever you're doing, we're at the bottom of the list. And so 

And sometimes I don't; by the time someone comes to see me, they're so depleted, they're out near burnout. And because they discount and deny their own needs. And that's part of what our culture tends to reinforce: this idea of that self-sacrificing mom. 

So I think these conversations- that's also where social media can be helpful are because, on the other hand, there are a lot of women using this social critique to sort of, even through humor or just speaking about modern-day motherhood and showing what it's truly like and what moms really do need, which is more support. We have no villages, but we need them. We're not just one person or two people even raising a child. That's why we're so overburdened, because it's too big a job for sure. 

And also just to have other people acknowledging. Right. Validating when we talk about the collective. This is why sometimes the group space can be really helpful. It's just to kind of feel, oh, I'm not alone, or like other people are like I don't always love being a mom, like, what I mean? Like, oh, I'm not the only one. And even just for fathers, right. That there's a similar experience around parenting. And also maybe it looks different stereotypically for a man, providing or wanting their family to be good and cared for and happy, like, but maybe not always being in touch with what's happening on the inside. And the experience of maybe an indication of, I'm having difficulty, or I need more support. 

Absolutely right. And that, for men, would sort of align with that cultural cult of toxic masculinity where men are not allowed to sort of acknowledge their vulnerability. Absolutely. See a ton of that in the couples that I work with. Right. So bridging those, bridging the experiences of what? That matrescence, all the shifts and all the changes. I think these words give such a deep understanding of what you said: to normalize, to have people resonate with it and get it.  It is just me. It's not a personal failure. It's the developmental experience. And our culture has not yet done a good job of naming and explaining, so that people can get the support that they need and have better conversations with each other around it. 

“Yes, and that it's not static. Right. The notion of a parent or a mother or a father. Like this isn't just a one-dimensional, static, binary thing. It's growing and evolving. And it sounds like there's a great awareness that you're wanting to bring. And also perhaps, I wonder, intentionality, when you talk about identity, like the identity is shifting regardless. And also, how do we stay connected with ourselves and also make room for who we're evolving or becoming? Can you speak to that a little bit?” 

“Yeah, absolutely. And I totally agree with you. It is shifting as our kids are growing through their ages and stages too. We notice, like, I now have three teens; as they moved into this phase of adolescence, I noticed how they were changing what they needed from me. So it was like, okay, here we go again. ‘Now, just when I figured out how to parent an 11-year-old, now I got. Now it's very different. What they want, what they need, how I communicate with them. I'm like,” 

That's why we know it's the hardest job, because our individual child doesn't come with a manual. When you have different kids, and they're all different too, they're all going to react and respond to your parenting differently. So we're constantly being challenged, and that's the joy of it. I mean, it can be very challenging. But I try to offer also a message of hope 

I think it's beautiful that we get activated in IFS. We'll call it a trailhead. So like, these are the parts of us that we recognize. Ooh, that's like a little part of me. That feeling of not being good enough, that now suddenly motherhood is triggering that in me. 

But that's actually my stuff; that's an opportunity to kind of go inside and understand what that is. And help that heal. So it is bumpy with these moments of these trailheads, these activations. And that's why I do think, but trust this is an opportunity for us to kind of grow beyond is to heal that stuff we haven't healed, but also take on some of these myths we've absorbed, to really start to decondition from the cultural values that we might disagree with. I don't think having a perfectly clean house, although some would say, oh, that's what a good mom focuses on. Well, maybe it's about recognizing my value: my house will be messy, but I play with my kids. 

And that's what's important to me, is the house isn't a place I'm going to judge myself or care what other people judge, so that's. These are the kind of shifts that I see women go through: matrescence, really awakening to who they truly are. So that's kind of their own identity, but it's through relationship with their children. So it's so complex. 

Yes. And I'm almost hearing- tell me if this is right- that it's not something that one says, okay, this is my intention, and I'm going to use this as a, like, north star, which I think can have some helpfulness. But what I'm hearing you focus on is: can I pay attention to what is stirring in me? Can I give room and space for that to process so that I can actually connect with what's genuine and align, and then have a bit more orientation that is giving me room and space to grow? That sounds really esoteric. So, putting that into an example, I remember having a client- this is years and years ago- and she was attending to her, I believe, toddler in this very nurturing way. And she was having waves of grief around. This isn't that hard. And I didn't get this. 

Oh, yeah, right. 

Yeah. 

And so instead of just, like, pushing it away, giving room for it and processing it perhaps allows her to access part of her own healing and show up for herself. And then, like, we're a little split. When you talk about parts, maybe you can say a little bit more around IFS here because I think this is going to be helpful for people to understand. 

Absolutely. Yes. And that's it. That example you just gave is a perfect one to sort of illustrate such a common one. I had a client of mine say that, when she was doing the first year, she did a big birthday party for her daughter; one year, grief popped up just like with your example. Right. It's like, oh, all the parts of us that had the little ones, if we use parts, or we just talk about unmet needs. Right. 

Yeah. 

Our children, and now parenting, very much can be a mirror to what we didn't get. Not for everyone. For a lot of people, maybe it's smooth sailing and what they got was great. And so they're kind of modeling their own maternal style in a similar way. And that's wonderful. And  I've met some people like that, but for a lot of folks, and certainly my experience, my children and now how I was raising them, because I did make some significant differences from how I was experienced in my childhood, that then recreated and sort of bubbled up. The parts of me that had to grieve through that. And I think that's where you get that opportunity to kind of just be with it, with compassion and presence, and help that part sort of heal. 

I think just that the little sprinkle of ifs is where we do understand our parts. So some therapists use more like inner child language or whatever. Right. They're kind of locked in time, because they sort of needed to adjust and adapt. And so a lot of our parts are really young. So I guess I would say to listeners, like, if you ever find yourself in a parenting moment where suddenly it's okay, we're both kids, like we both sound like children arguing. That's a cue. Usually, that's like one of your protective parts that's been there since you were maybe eight or nine; that's who's engaging with your child. It's not the kind of wise, calm, grown-up, integrated whole self we say in IFS, capital S self. 

And that's just what happens a lot of the time. So it's not to say we can always stay this calm, wise, adult, but I think having that understanding and regularly practicing to sort of have that self-awareness, we can do it- that healing work, that self-awareness work with our own inner system. And it doesn't have to even take that long. It is doable just to kind of know when we're getting activated. Maybe it's just a quick hand on the heart. Tell that little part. Oh, okay, I'm with you. That's kind of just to dive into it. I don't know. You're not asking me for, like, a practice per se. 

I love it. 

No, it's bubbling up. So, like, when I've caught myself in these moments. If you can, if you need to step away, great. But even just to kind of stop talking, take a breath and notice. Like, for instance, I'll give you one example. I'm in the car, and I'm, like, talking, talking past what my kid's nervous system can tolerate. So they're just like, stop, please stop. Like, I can't. And I noticed within me the energy of the part of the mom, like this wise adult self that recognizes. Oh. Because I know my kids' nervous system can only handle so many words before they can't, so I recognize that's perfectly okay, and I want to respond by respecting that and being a safe co. Regulator for them. 

And then I was very aware of a part of me that just wanted to keep talking, that didn't want to stop, that actually didn't like that I was being told to stop. It made me want to talk more. 

And let me just get this one right. 

Yeah. So it's like, and this, I think, is 

So it's just even that to just be like, I took a breath and I could, I could put my hand on my heart and just say, okay, sweetie, I'll listen to you later. Like I'm here for you to ramble on about whatever you want to talk about. But right now, my sweetheart, sitting next to me, it's not helpful. 

So thank you, I appreciate that. One thing that I'm experiencing when you describe this is the quality of tightness or control, or conversely, a little bit more mobility and movement and freedom to choose when I feel my parts. And they're kind of, so-called, steering the ship. It feels very narrow, which relates to the nervous system, as you're saying. Oftentimes our field of vision gets narrower, and we are kind of in those responses of fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. And I have certain tendencies, and I'm kind of attached to them. Right. And if we make sense of it. Right. And from this lens of. They were developed and adaptive at that time; they served us well. And that was what we knew. And as you said, in a developmental age, we didn't maybe have as many options. 

So it feels like this is the way. 

That's right. 

I was meeting with a couple yesterday, and she was like, I just needed. 

To do the laundry. Like, she was like, the control of, like, so much chaos is going on. 

And her husband was trying to get her attention, and she was just like, I have to do the laundry. And it was just like, I need this little win, this control part. But it was just her protective part of, like, I just need to see something through and have, like, a little check mark on my task. That gives me some sense of control or power in a field of chaos, which makes sense but also takes us out of relationship. If we're so hyper-focused on needing that strategy as the way, then we're losing contact; it takes us out. Is that right? 

Absolutely. And then we're out of an opportunity to have an emotionally corrective experience. Yes. Right. Because you're right. So if she's blended with a part that says the laundry is the most important thing, and I mean, yes to that part, that was the strategy that helped somehow protect from something else. Maybe feeling anxious, chaos, unsafe. Right. So a deeper vulnerability. So it's like, oh no, that part's doing its job. And it did help her kind of move, adapt through that household to become a neat freak, let's say. 

Right. 

Or something. And so yeah, in that moment, she's disconnected from her partner. You're right. She's relationally not there because she's in this self-protective mode, and she's missing the opportunity both to help that part realize that actually you can step aside, and it's. And we are safe. Right. So these are the moments for the self to come in and say, I got you. You're not living in that world anymore. I mean that you might feel like it. 

Right. Because there's. Yes. 

But that part's reacting based on an old story and an old context. And so the healing and helping update it, so it's not a part that's reacting from the past. It doesn't need to keep doing its job. She's a grown-up. She can actually be there for that part and maybe offer some nurturance instead of cleaning, doing laundry, and then maybe even better, turn to her husband and say, oh, I see you now. And he might even be a source of nurturance for her. But as long as that self-protective part is still taking over and hijacking her system, doing its job. You're right, she's missing contact to help that part heal and to even connect in a more loving, present, harmonious way with her partner. 

Yes. And it sounds like you're saying, too, having awareness around what is even underneath the protective part. Like, obviously I met with her, so I get to have a little bit more information. But she was tired; there was a lot of overwhelm. There's just a lot going on. And so that could have been seeking to feel some goodness. Right. When really, if she paused and was taking a moment like I'm really tired; I need to just go slower today, or I need to take a nap, or can you be gentle with me? So she could have some choice around how to meet those needs. 

Absolutely. 

And then also send a clear signal to her partner, even if he's bidding for her attention, that she could say I love you, and my capacity is low right now. Let's check in a little bit. I just need to give myself some room here. 

Absolutely. And it's such a good, I think, common example too where, like, if it's a perfectionist who's the task-oriented, kind of managerial part thinks, well, then if I'm not doing everything and everything's not great, then it's fear of judgment: I'm not good enough. So yeah, she's trying to avoid some deeper pain and then make it relational. So the spouse, then, if she's not, if she's just so focused on the laundry, his part of vulnerability that maybe feels like you don't care about me, you don't see me, might get activated, right? Yeah, I don't matter. 

So much is happening with our systems, and I think that sort of mindfulness, the lens of understanding our parts, has been incredibly helpful for me, which is why I dove into IFS to learn it, because I found it can be very effective very quickly. Even if we don't get to, let's say, that vulnerable part- let's say, I mean, great, if you have a therapist, wonderful. And you can do that deeper work. But even just on a surface level, we're starting to understand that you're in self-protective mode, that you have these protectors that are blocking you from truly seeing your partner. Your protectors have stories; they turn your spouse into the villain often because they're trying to protect you. But if we can even just understand that about ourselves, we can drop the defenses. Right. 

We can get in self-energy, and that's where the communication is so much better with our partners. 

So I can feel like people are listening, still wanting to discern a little bit more about, like, oh, what's the difference between just being tired and stressed? Or if it's an old kind of chain or protector part showing up here. I'm wondering if you want to speak to that. I have some thoughts, but I would love to hear if you want to. 

Yeah. I mean, I only think about that because sometimes I mean, I appreciate that it's nuanced, but I mean, for me it's just because I think we have signs and cues, but those are our parts talking to us through our body, through our emotions, through our thoughts. Right. Like some parts are more in our head, and they. It's like a voice talking to us often; let's take, for instance, the inner critic. Most people I've met and worked with have a part of them that's either judgmental or critical. It's a common strong protector part that actually is intentionally trying to be helpful but usually comes about it in a not great way. 

So I have found, like getting to under getting to sort of identify the parts in my life that are stronger, that are sort of taking over in a helpful way, to then know is this what does the part need from me? So I tend to sort of see everything in parts. But I know we have nervous systems. I know we also have energy. I mean, there's how to integrate some of these models that I subscribe to. I mean, that's true. Right. So yeah, I don't know. I'd love to hear what you. 

What that's actually, Jessica, just reflecting with you, Angele. It sounds like one of the keys is just pausing here to give a little bit more room and space to kind of check in. And through the check-in, there could be, like, just really tired. Right. Or like I'm hungry, I forgot to eat, something like that. Or it's just a really stressful time. Yes. And also that if there's a bit more charge that feels perhaps disproportionate. Like we hear people talk about what's hysterical is history or something like catchy like that. That could be an indicator. But in your book you also talk about, in your story, sometimes we might have a flash of a memory, or we might have like something that's just where it's taking us out of the present moment. Right. Like we're getting hooked by something. 

And I guess, through the nervous system, polyvagal, as they talk about the window of tolerance. So this simple check-in, it doesn't have to be like we do a deep level of work. It could be just like, can I just hold a little bit more room for what's happening for me right now and just have a little bit more window of opening into my internal state. So it sounds like the pause is really a big key. 

I think it's the biggest. Right. 

It's kind of like step number one: noticing certain patterns. You might pause, reflect, and go, I notice I'm overeating a bit lately. Like, sometimes it's our behaviors and our patterns of behavior that will be the first cue that we might notice. It might not be the inner critic; for me, that was where I was like, why am I suddenly being so hard on myself? Where I started to realize I'm out of balance. So different things, right. Different cues for different people. But you're right. 

Yeah. Okay. What's. For me, also, the body is like a number one place: what's happening in my body. And that way, if you're just hungry or tired, then you'll be like, oh, my body just needs to eat, or I just need a nap. And great, now I'm back in that window of tolerance, and I'm feeling more balanced. But if there is. There's like a pattern of things, or like, I agree with you. If it's like I reacted so disproportionately, and I'm getting the feedback from people in my life; they're a source of information too. 

Oftentimes, especially our children. 

Yes. It's often one we don't want to look at. And I think most people want to live their best life. They want to live into the best version of themselves. And, for me, that was kind of my motivation; it was just like, I want to be the parent that I see my kid needs. Right. And right now I noticed my reactivity was getting in my way. So I was like, I need to go back into the therapy room, sit in the client chair this time, and figure out what's happening with my nervous system and what parts are taking over here so that I can't be the present, attuned mom that I want to be. So it's like that might sort of be the north star, right. All holding these north stars of what we're working on. 

And I think anytime we can notice there is a block to it, that's what we want to pay attention to. 

Yeah. Thank you for bringing up the body. That we might have certain sensations or tensions, and it's easy to, when we're in our patterns, not be in close contact. When I've done kind of more somatic, EMDR was like, ” Oh, like, I just needed space being held in the question and me to kind of, like, start identifying. Like, at first I was like, I don't know what I'm feeling in my body. Right. And then it's like, Okay, oh, I noticed that. 

Oh, yeah. 

I was feeling that. I just wasn't paying attention to it. So that's really helpful. Okay. So I know we don't have a ton of time here as far as it relates to couplehood. And I mean, this is such a deep internal thing, but also shows up as we're talking about it in relationships. Is there anything you want to speak to around how parents who are collaborating in parenthood but also having intimate relationships in this terrain? Is there anything additional you would want to speak to? 

Yeah, I think there's so much there that especially for heterosexual partners, that they're going through in terms of the myths that they've absorbed around what a good mom is or what a good dad is. Right. I just would offer them, like, what I tell a lot of the couples that I work with is that it's very easy when you're sleep-deprived. You're just in the matrescence, and the patrescene is big, especially during those early years when your partner becomes the villain or the object of your unmet needs. 

Right. 

Like, they don't see me. That we can get so crusty with each other so quickly because we're stressed and we're exhausted. So I would just offer couples to

and have conversations about these ideas. 

Yeah. 

Even before, if you're thinking about having kids, like, start. We don't do it enough. Right. And we don't talk about these things enough. But, like, what do you think a good moment is? And, like, what. Because that gets at kind of what your true values are. And I think that's kind of the bridge. And not that you necessarily have to even have the same, because you might have some different ones. But keeping those lines of communication open is going to help you feel like we're a team. Because when there's a baby, oftentimes. Right. Some of those crusty parts, it's like we're not a team. And that's what's so hard for moms especially, who tend to be the primary for all the, like, baby stuff. And a lot of the stuff lands on moms. 

And if they aren't feeling like their partner sees them, gets them, validates their experience, it's like, you're not my team member. And so then that disconnection starts. Right. And it can really be reinforced because the whole dynamics are no different. It's not just you and me. There's a child. 

Yeah. 

And that's hard for a lot of male partners too, that they're not getting the attention they were getting before. So how to navigate some of that? Just talk about it. 

Talk about how they're getting the discharge of stress when maybe they didn't quite understand, like the misunderstandings that might be read through facial expressions and nonverbals like, ” Oh, I'm failing you or disappointing you or so, to have this open line. And I so appreciate this too, because it's like if a couple or partners want to have this conversation, it's a lot of sensitivity to being corrected as a parent. Right. Like, oh, is this a protective part that's showing up? 

Right. 

Like, that's really hard to invite a partner into. 

Yeah. 

Because it feels like negative feedback or criticism. But if there's already conversation around building awareness of just checking in, what are we noticing? Parts like this just give a little bit more. Again, normalizing that we're going to be on this journey. “Can we be, as you said, teammates, allies around support, but also just hearing each other and witnessing and holding space with that compassion. It's a very different setup than it is to be interested, maybe with even good intention, but it just might not go very far.” 

“Absolutely. And it takes practice. Sometimes it is gonna be your protective parts, and you'll be butting heads. But come back, and that's why I think the first step is just knowing what's happening with you.” Right. Turning towards yourself, mindfulness, self-compassion to the parts of you that are getting activated. What am I afraid of? Why is this part criticizing my partner? What's it afraid would happen if it's not criticizing? Like, 

Yeah. Yes. Thank you so much. And there are really good support tools you've mentioned, perhaps getting a coach or a therapist. You just wrote a book that has a tremendous amount of guidance and support. Tell us a little more about your book. 

Yeah. So my book on Unburdening Motherhood: A Guide to Breaking Cycles, Healing Trauma, and Becoming a Self-Led Mom is to really teach these practices, the lens, but also specific, experiential little things we. To get to know our parts and to help us in our parenting journey and our motherhood journey. So it can be one of awakening and healing and transformation and not feeling so burdened and not getting bogged down by mom guilt and all the things that moms are kind of struggling with right now. So I hope that it would be a true guide for healing for the busy mom who can't always make it to therapy every week. 

Exactly. 

Yeah. 

So I'll put the link to today's show notes and where to get the book. Is there anything else you want to encourage people to connect with you, either social or website?

Absolutely. My website, drangeleclose.com. People can reach out to me there if they want to connect. And I'm a little bit on social media, but I do struggle with it often for the reasons we talked about today. It's both. And it's a busy, noisy place, but I'm certainly there on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok and all that stuff. So I'm around if people want to reach out and connect and learn more about IFS and parenthood. 

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for all that you've shared and what you're doing and helping people negotiate, and as you said, just the immense journey that this presents for us. So thank you. 

Yeah, thanks for having me. I really appreciated this conversation, Jessica.