ERP 073: As a Man, How Do I Open Up More In My Relationship?

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Welcome to The Empowered Relationship Podcast, helping you turn relationship challenges into opportunities and setting you up for relationship success. Your host, Dr. Jessica Higgins, is a licensed psychologist and relationship coach who shares valuable tips, tools and resources for you to dramatically improve your relationship.

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Hi, thank you for joining today’s episode. Today’s episode is 073, and it’s titled “As a Man, How Do I Open Up More In My Communication?”

Today I’m answering two listener’s questions, but before we get started I just want to remind you of the invitation I have out to you to respond to me about the idea that I posed last week, which is giving us the space and the time once a month to deepen in our communication together. This would allow me to answer your question, your relationship wonderings live. We would basically hop on a call together for about 75 minutes, maybe 90 minutes. It would be first-come-first-served, and I would be able to give you a little more feedback than what I can provide in this current setup of you submitting a question and then me creating a podcast episode. It would invite a little more dialogue. I would have the opportunity to give you some coaching, and you’d get to experience some of that and ask me more questions in more detail. Because some of you have reached out to me and I’m limited around what I can provide via e-mail, so I thought that this would be a really great opportunity for us to be in dialogue, to continue the conversation and deepen in the conversation.

Now, if there are times where I feel like I might be able to direct you towards a resource or a program or coaching that might be a good fit, I will have the opportunity to tell you about that, but ultimately this is a free call for us to deepen in the conversation.

I’m only gonna do this if enough of you let me know you want it. I want this to be of value to you and something that you’re interested in. A few of you have reached out, but I would love to hear if there’s more of you, because as of yet there’s not enough for me to actually create this. I would need a lot more of you to want to do this, so that it’s useful for us and it’s worthy of our time.

You can reach me by e-mail, and that e-mail is [email protected], or you can go to my website, which is DrJessicaHiggins.com. You can click on Contact and you can find all the ways to reach me there.

I would love to hear from you if you’re interested in this, I would love to meet you and be in dialogue with you, know more about what you’re wondering and the places you’re getting stuck, and like I said, be in a deeper conversation with you.

For today’s episode, episode 73, “As A Man, How Do I Open Up More In My Communication?” I’m answering two listeners questions today. I felt that as I was thinking about them they were similar enough that I could bring in some concepts that address both of their questions. There are some differences, so I will highlight those and make a note of that as well.

The first listener’s question would like to remain anonymous, and he writes:

“I feel like I have a huge problem with my assertiveness. I am recently married and my wife and I are great together but sometimes our communication falls a little short.

I would describe her as being very assertive, not scared to speak her mind or ask for what she wants, which I admire. Me, on the other hand, I am passive, I keep a lot of my feelings and thoughts to myself, and have a hard time expressing how I feel.

I listened to two of your podcasts, episodes 45 and 46 and a lot hit home for me. I don’t wanna be scared to rock the boat or be overly concerned of how she is going to react if I tell her how I feel, but at the same time she isn’t very inviting when I do express myself. It’s like she can’t understand that it is hard for me and that it takes a lot for me to actually say what I have to say.

So not only do I want to become more assertive, but I want to be able to not need to be reassured. I don’t wanna feel like I need to be congratulated for speaking up; I want to do it because I know it’s what I should do and it’s not fair to her or myself when I keep my feelings and thoughts to myself. I wanna get out of the mindset of thinking it’s weak to feel the way I feel, because I start to resent her and it’s not fair.

I recognize my weakness and I know what I should do to correct the issue, but it is hard to always do what I should, so I just need some tips to overcome the moments of weakness so that our relationship can be at its fullest potential.”

Thank you, listener, for submitting this question. I think there’s lots of things I could speak to, but today I’m gonna focus on a few points that really stick out to me in your question. The first one is about men and emotional intimacy. Many, many years ago I ran a team program for several years, and within that team program it was like a full, comprehensive personal growth team program where we socials, we had community service, I had a leadership program, we’d have curriculum, we would have camps, and we lead camps a few times a year. Basically, these camps were personal growth retreats for teenagers, and we would have teenagers from all walks of life. These kids, granted some of them knew each other, but others didn’t; they were pretty new to the program.

Some people would come from greater distances to go to these camps, or someone invited them, or a family member brought them, so some of these kids didn’t really know each other. And when we have different kids of all walks of life, you can imagine we’re gonna have different cliques, different groups. You’re gonna have somebody that’s more of an athletic type, or a gamer, or back in my era you might call it the jocks, or the nerds, or the preppy kids. There’s all these different names or labels for these different cliques.
Why I’m bringing this up is that kids would typically the first few days be a little guarded. They are kind of sticking to what feels comfortable and they’re a little guarded. They don’t feel super safe to really reveal more emotionally. But as the camp ensued, we would basically create a lot of experiences to create safety, where kids did feel comfortable to drop into a deeper place of revealing, and simultaneously building stronger connections with one another, and it was tremendously healing. So healing that towards the end of the camp almost every kid had created some really significant bonds with one another and with the entire group, in a deep level of sharing and in emotional intimacy. That was profound. It was tremendously healing to see these kids getting in touch and being open and expressive about really authentic parts of themselves.

In this one camp I remember seeing this very strong – I think he was in high-school – really tall guy, black guy, balling. He is just sharing with the group some really deep, emotional pain around some issues that he was experiencing in his life. I remember him saying, as he was balling and crying and sharing with the group so tenderly, so openly, that he had never shared like this with any other people ever before, and that he felt so safe and so comfortable to really share. And the kind of love and the support… So mind you, not only are we inviting this deeper level of emotional intimacy and sharing, but we’re also bolstering it by creating this safety, creating a community of love and respect and honesty and confidentiality, so that these kids could feel that safe container and show up for each other.

The amount of love that he got from all the walks of life, these different kids that would mainly stick to their group were really supporting each other, really showing up for each other, having each other’s back. But the point here that I’m making most notably is that stereotypically we would see a guy in football that’s super strong and really athletic – the stereotype there is that he’s not gonna really show his feelings, and he’s not gonna be really expressing an emoting. So to see him be balling and speaking so openly was transformational for him and everyone in that group.

I think at the time I was a young adult and I believe that I had already done my masters in psychology at this time, but nonetheless I think one of my big takeaways here was just how important it is to create safety for men’s emotional and personal development. Because I do think, not only physiologically, but also socially, men typically do not get a lot of encouragement, a lot of support to be in touch with their emotion and to be in a place of communicating about it. So it goes against natural instincts, where men I think are primed – and this comes evolutionarily – primed, so it’s in their brain structure… And again, this is stereotypically, but to see the world through hierarchy, to see the world through winning and structure and how to get ahead.

There’s a lot of reasons why evolutionarily that’s true, and that the bonding and connections emotionally typically happen through physical action. Men typically play sports together, or do something physical to enjoy their friendship or their emotional connectedness and bond. There’s typically not as much verbal sharing as there is for women.

Similarly, with romantic relationships, men typically see sex or physical intimacy as a huge source of emotional intimacy. So the verbal talking is much more of a female approach to emotional intimacy. This comes, again, from a same thing, just a different aspect, where women’s evolutionary brain structure, their physiological makeup is very well primed for talking, communicating verbally, and empathy. So there’s the emotional empathy and the sharing, and that comes much more easily to women than it does stereotypically to men.

Men get a lot of programming around not being vulnerable emotionally. That that’s seen as a liability and it’s seen as a weakness.

In my position as the director of this team program, I had the privilege… So the team focus here of these camps was largely personal development, building character and supporting positive interpersonal skills, communication skills… So it’s largely based on these psychological emotional principles. But what I got to observe and had the privilege of observing is how important it is for young men and men to be supported to be able to express these deeper parts of themselves; this emotional development and this personal development. Yet, it goes against every instinct usually.

I think there’s a deep longing and a yearning to be known on this level, but if it goes against the genetic kind of priming, and then it’s also going against cultural norms, there’s a lot here to go against the grain. When we’re talking about men entering into romantic intimacy and you have a female partner who is more assertive about the approach to developing emotional intimacy, most likely she’s gonna be coming from her vantage point of how effective her way and her strategy is, and she’s gonna want to encourage you to do that. But if you look at where you’re coming from, it’s very different places. So I would like for you to consider to be very gentle with yourself, kind with yourself, and also being in a place of self-advocacy – I’m gonna talk about that in a moment, but more or less it really is developing this positive, encouraging inner coach.

I love, even in your question and the next person’s question, that there’s this sense of feeling the importance of getting it right – right action. There’s the masculine in what you’re saying, so if I can give you some tools and some mindset here to consider, I think it would help you be a little more equipped in this landscape. But first of all, I guess what I’m really trying to do here is normalize how unfamiliar this territory may be for you. That it goes against some of your biological and social instincts. And that’s not to say that those instincts are good, bad, right or wrong. On a side note, I’m very, very supportive of the masculine; of all the ways that the masculine knows how to take charge, lead, be directive and all of what that encompasses. I don’t wanna minimize that, I don’t wanna squelch that, but if we’re looking at how to develop other parts of your being, and if you’re asking me “How do I learn how to open up and develop more of this emotional intimacy?” then that’s what we’re directing our attention to in this episode.

I wanna support you to feel good in your process of learning. We wanna be encouraging, we wanna be building safety and building a way that you and your significant other can be collaborating in a way that works for you. Her way might be great, and from an emotional intimacy point she might be pretty advanced, and that’s fair enough. And if you guys are gonna meet and connect, you have to start wherever you need to start, and that’s what I wanna invite some positive, encouraging language around.

This isn’t about who’s better, who’s wrong, or even bad behavior. We’re talking about “Let’s just work with what is.”

Another camp – so I lead and facilitated numerous camps, so at another camp I was facilitating a middle school family group. Family groups were small groups that met periodically throughout the camp, so it gave kids an opportunity to share more fully and more deeply; we would have room for everybody sharing in the large group. Normally everybody would have a chance to share in a larger group at some point, but you just can’t have the floor all the time, so these small groups provided for a lot more opportunity to process the things that kids were feeling or thinking about and wanted space and time for.

The family groups were divided so that there were 6-8 kids in each group, and it was divided by high-school and middle school. At this particular camp, I was facilitating a middle school group, and it was mixed gender. I remember this young guy – he was smart, capable, well-liked, and sensitive, and I remember him sharing very clearly about his pain of being made fun of for having emotions. I remember thinking to myself, “Wow, this is so important, that young men and men feel supported to have emotions and to feel.”

I remember, over these years of running these team programs, just so deeply committed to wanting to support men’s emotional and personal development. And men’s development looks very different than women’s development. This is important, because I don’t know how you’re gonna talk about a heterosexual romantic relationship and not talk about gender differences at some point. I think it is part of the complexity of the terrain of what we’re dealing with, and it’s just one facet. But if we’re gonna look at your question here, I guess one of my big points is to consider and have a paradigm around this, that you are learning. And like you said, this isn’t easy for you, so I’m gonna give you some real tips around how to negotiate this, but I like that you’re giving yourself that awareness that this is gonna take some development and process of learning, but I would want for you to have a positive tone, an encouraging tone that’s supporting your process.

It’s easy to get into a mindset and a place, especially when emotions are high and it’s feeling painful and difficult to feel like “Oh, I’m not doing it right, I’m getting it wrong. I’m screwing up, I’m in the doghouse, I’m not adequate in this, and it’s not good enough…” and all of these sentiments. That’s not gonna support your opening. That’s gonna further cause the distancing, the shutting down and the avoiding; it feels painful, and you’re gonna wanna avoid what feel uncomfortable and painful. But again, if you can develop this inner positive coach, and I’m gonna give you some tools here to work with, but more I want to emphasize the importance of helping yourself in the process. I’m gonna save my real points until after I read the second question.

Second listener’s question comes from Jay. He’s in his late twenties and is engaged.

“I’ve been listening to your podcast for the past couple weeks and it has helped me tremendously in opening up my mind to different views in my relationship and how I can communicate better with my partner.

Currently we are going to couples therapy and we are each seeing our own therapist as well. This is the first month seeing my therapist and my fiancé and I have only gone to two sessions together so far. In these sessions I have learned a lot about my poor communication skills – I hold onto my feelings and I don’t express them – and learn more about myself and the relationship, but I don’t feel like it’s enough. I’m still not able to talk with my partner openly about my feelings and through therapy I’ve discovered that I am scared of confrontation and I avoid it at all costs and it’s hurting my relationship tremendously.

Normally it’s not until after my fiancé confronts me about my behavior do I realize my poor actions and apologize, but lately I’ve been able to recognize my behavior and confront her shortly after our argument to resolve the issue.

The second and bigger problem is that my bad behavior is becoming repetitive and it’s getting hard for me to express myself to her after we have a 2-4 hour argument. I shut down, and I start tuning her out because it’s the same arguments and the same things are being said.

Our therapist has said this process takes time and requires patience. I understand change requires patience, but her impatience with me and long drawn out explanations are exhausting her and me, both mentally and physically.

The worst part is if our argument happens early in the day it ruins her entire day and she can’t focus on anything but the argument. We talk about it several times throughout the day because she feels I don’t understand her and it keeps being drawn up and aggravates me. I acknowledge her feelings and apologize and inform her what I will do differently next time. She also brings it up one more time right before bed, literally as we’re falling asleep. This is aggravating me because I wake up at 4 AM to go to work, and I need about six hours of sleep minimum.

I don’t know how to ask for more time and patience from her and still show her that I’m improving every day. I need to materialize my thoughts into action, and most of all I need her to understand that change takes time and doesn’t happen overnight, and to let go of all the anger she is building inside. Is there an activity you recommend? Or maybe one of your episodes touch on this subject? Thank you for all your support.”

Jay, in your question I feel I wanna echo some of what I’ve just stated, because the way you’re describing your behavior – it’s talking as though it’s a problem, and I get how you’re seeing it creates discord in your relationship, but I like how you’re saying, “I know this is gonna take time, but how do I help her know that it takes time and that I’m learning?” and that there is some positive view around how you guys are working together in a way that works for both of you, and I get how it’s disruptive to your harmony throughout the day, and also interfering with your ability to get sleep at night and feel really effective and productive. So in a lot of ways, it’s highjacking your peace and harmony, and it’s really tainting your experience with her, and in life. I get that, so I wanna echo just a couple things.

My first point is just that you’re developing a new paradigm. Your understanding that this takes time, like it would with anything you’re learning. If you’re learning something new, that’s uncomfortable, unfamiliar, the process is gonna be you’re not gonna get it right away. It’s gonna take a lot of correction, and eventually you’ll get into a place where you’re taking so-called ‘right action’, but it’s gonna take a process, so being easy with yourself. And I wanna encourage that the avoidance or the uncomfortability, the lack of wanting to confront or share has served a purpose for you. There’s a reason why that’s true for you, and it’s been good for you in the past, whether or not it’s being this stereotypical guy that this evolutionarily has not been a skill set that you’ve needed. You’ve needed to grow other skill sets. Or socially, if you’re been brought up in a culture where it’s not super acceptable to be talking about your feelings more vulnerably all the time, or you grew up in a family where it was intense, or it was volatile, or confrontation was scary.

There can be a lot of reasons why you didn’t develop that skill set, and that was a good strategy for you to avoid; it made sense in the past for you. Let’s just hold that belief, that it’s served you up until this point. And it may serve you in other venues, but in your relationship, if you’re saying “I wanna develop the ability to develop emotional intimacy, bring myself to the table, talk about my thoughts and feelings so that I can deepen in that emotional intimacy with my significant other, then I’m gonna have to learn this skill.”

So I would invite you to consider that paradigm, that thought process, that there’s nothing wrong with you. You’re not doing anything bad, you’re learning a new skill set. So being easy with yourself, developing that positive, encouraging inner coach.

I think I’ve mentioned to you guys that I play beach volleyball, and I remember – I think it was last year – my husband and I were doing a lesson with a coach, and the coach was really noting that my husband had this internal dialogue that was very hard on himself, and my husband was commenting, “Yeah, I grew up in football, and I had a coach that was pretty strict and pretty hard on us, and motivated us through fear and kind of beating us down.” It was kind of that ‘break you’ mentality.

So his inner coach is pretty critical and pretty hard on himself. That’s not necessarily though the climate that fosters learning. Especially if we’re talking about vulnerability, we wanna encourage support, we wanna encourage safety.

As I mentioned in my story with these camps, a lot of our work was creating safety, creating support, and creating the opportunity for people to bond and really show up for each other and have each other’s back, and that’s when people open. We don’t just force ourselves into opening; that’s usually not the route to revealing more of that vulnerable place in ourselves. As you’re learning, you’re gonna recognize that there are things that work for you – as a man, as you as an individual, what helps you open, what helps you share; you’re only gonna know that through experience, perhaps some education, whether or not you’re reading books or you’re listening to podcasts, or perhaps getting some coaching. You are getting therapy; one of the best ways is to get that space to explore. And again, with that non-judgmental stance – okay, let’s look at what was going on there. Just being in that space of exploration, and you’re gonna get new information that’s gonna help you feel more informed and more capable to enter into these conversations.

The next point I wanna make here is that it can be useful – now, this is gonna seem very counterintuitive, but it’s to help her understand what’s going on for you. It’s gonna feel counterintuitive because it’s doing the thing that is most uncomfortable. It’s doing the thing that you’re avoiding, which is to tell her what’s real. But why I suggest this is because my guess is that your partner, your significant other does not know what’s going on for you. She’s operating based on what she knows, and that’s gonna be informed by her experience, which is emotional communication, emotional intimacy, sharing, empathy – that’s all something that is very comfortable for her, so she doesn’t understand why it’s hard for you. From that viewpoint, if you are shutting down, it’s very easy to go to the thought of, “He doesn’t care. I’m not important. He’s not prioritizing. He’d rather watch football, he’d rather do this, he’d rather hang out…”, whatever it is.

If she were to understand more emotionally what’s going on for you – not the intellectual play-by-play, but what’s going on emotionally for you, most of the time she’s gonna soften and wanna help you. “Oh my god, I had no idea. I get it.” So if you were to say, “When you’re feeling upset, when you’re wanting me to talk about my feelings and my thoughts, sometimes I’m overwhelmed by the conflict between us. I’m scared of disappointing you, I’m scared of doing it wrong. I’m worried about doing it wrong. Conflict’s uncomfortable for me. Avoiding is really a strategy for me to feel okay about myself when I start to feel overwhelmed or I feel fearful of disappointing you or letting you down or feeling inadequate. I shut down, it’s too painful for me to confront, so I avoid.”

If she knew some of that was going on for you, then it would change things for her. It’s not about you don’t care, it’s not important, it’s not a priority; it changes the real dynamic, and if she knew you were hurting or knew you were struggling, she would probably wanna help. Now, this isn’t coming from a place of weakness, this isn’t coming from a place of good, bad, right or wrong. When you have two people in partnership, both people are human and you’re gonna have emotional experiences and you can have soft spots. The goal if we’re gonna foster this safety and this connection, and that supporting the bond, you wanna be helping each other, you wanna be supporting one another, but where we get threatened is where we start to really feel the disconnect, when we start to worry that we’re not important or we’re worried we’re doing it wrong etc.

Usually this process takes some support, whether or not it’s reading books, getting a coach, working with a therapist, because a lot of this is just ingrained in both of you and it’s hard to really see this, what’s going on underneath. So getting someone to support the process will help you recognize this dynamic, because then you can shift your attention to, “Okay, what’s gonna help us, knowing what we know about ourselves, knowing our tendencies. How can we really get on the track that’s gonna allow us to come closer together, to work with what’s real for us both, our respective strategies, and try to gain a sense of closer connection?”

My third point – this is gonna require for you to be able to identify or have a better sense of what you need. So if what you need is “I wanna feel support, I wanna feel safe to share with you. I wanna go slow.” If you’re learning, sometimes it’s helpful to go slower. Or, stereotypically, guys sometimes need a little more time to access and reflect on their emotional experience. It’s not immediate. We’re women – again, if you see, most women stereotypically are a little more skilled for this, they’re a little more practiced at this; it’s a little more familiar, a little more comfortable. Women are much more easily able to access their emotions and be able to talk about that, where men typically need a little more time to have the reflection time to identify the emotion, to have awareness and then to be able to talk about it.

So if you can say what you need, like “I need a day, I need two days, I need three days”, and I know that’s a lot to tolerate, which I’m gonna get to in a moment here, but for you to be able to talk about what would be helpful for you, what would feel supportive for you, to open. We wanna work in this encouraging, positive stance. Do you need a calmer environment, can we slow this down, can we calm our voices? Can we get into a more curious standpoint? This is all really helpful.

Jay, in your question… I didn’t hear this as much in the first question, but in your question it sounds as though your significant other – and obviously I’m just getting a little snapshot of this, so it’s gonna sound assumptive, but what I’m picking up on, it may or may not be true, but what I’m hearing is that perhaps your fiancé is feeling her own level of anxiety or upset; it’s affecting her. She’s wanting to talk about it, she’s wanting some relief. It is possible that she’s seeking reassurance. It’s possible that she might have a little more of that anxious attachment style. If you guys are interested in learning a little bit more about attachment styles, you can check out my episode 52, which is Save Your Relationship By Understanding Your Attachment Needs.

The anxious attachment style is usually seeking reassurance, wanting to know “Are we good? Do you still love me? Are you still with me?” There is the desire to feel important, to feel connected, to not feel rejected, to not feel abandoned. If your tendency is to shut down, it feels as though you’re gone away. If her tendency is to wanna explain and want to feel your connection, it’s her strategy – this is a very female approach – to share in the hopes that you’ll reciprocate, that you’ll share; that her sharing will prompt you to share. She’s seeking to get validated, but there’s also a real desire… She’s trying to get something out of that.

The invitation here is to both of you be in the place of looking at what’s gonna help build support and safety. She might just wanna know you’re with her, you’re committed to talking about her when you’re talking to her, when you know that you love her, and it also may be helpful for you to know that she values you, she values your contribution. She sees you, she sees your goodness, that you’re okay. So on both ends there is creating that safety, that container that allows for this deeper sharing. This is critical.

So I’m talking about a couple things here. I’m talking about really supporting yourself in your learning process. I’m talking about educating your significant other, about what’s going on for you, and I’m talking about creating safety for both people. You’re creating safety in the relationship, and there is support; you have each other’s back. And your support is gonna look different. She may need to know that you love her, that you’re with her, that you’re committed, even though you might need to have some time to reflect and really glean what’s going on for you so that you can open to her, and that you might need to know you’re good. “I see you. I value you. You matter to me.”

This usually takes some practice, some guidance from somebody who knows what they’re doing and are really skilled at this – this is where you’re going, this is the goal.

The last point I have here I’ve already spoken about, which is working on building safety and trust. Again, just to reiterate, this is that you are both in the process of identifying and working together in how to create safety. What will feel safe for her might feel different for you, so asking “What would help you feel safe?” She might need to know you love her, you do wanna talk to her, you are committed to sharing when you’re ready, and that you want things to work. That you’re not leaving, you’re not rejecting her, you’re not abandoning her. So if there is the ability – because that might be the thing that she’s searching for. I don’t know, I can only speculate here. And again, for you to feel safe, that it’s okay that you come from a different way of operating, and that your process might look different, and what is it that you’re needing to help you feel safe, that you are good, that you are good enough, that you are valued, you matter, and creating that support and that safety for you to open. And how you wanna open – if that process is unfamiliar, what would support you learning. That positive, encouraging stance, slowing it down, having more time, getting support…

Again, I wanna highlight… My two main points here are that men and emotional intimacy and the development of that often looks different than it does for women. My second point is that when we feel threatened or we feel any disconnect in a  relationship, partners often have different strategies around how to seek connection. One might be a little more anxious, trying to seek reassurance, “Make sure we’re good, you love me, we’re with each other and we’re committed.” The other strategy is to avoid; to just feel, “I’m okay. It’s overwhelming and I feel inadequate, so I just wanna kind of shut down and disconnect from the conflict, because it’s painful and I’m just trying to feel okay inside myself; that’s been a strategy that I’ve known.” So when you put those two strategies together, one is pursuing, the other’s distancing.

This is just one explanation around what’s going on here, but I do think emotionally it’s critical for us to look at how do we recognize that those are the strategies, how do we get into a place where we’re working together to create safety, and that we’re really acknowledging that our differences are okay; that there’s a reason why we have that particular strategy, or there’s a reason why we are not as comfortable or familiar with this approach, for whatever reason.

For these listeners, I wanna thank you for reaching out; I wanna thank you for your patience in my getting to this episode. I know you guys have waited a little while. I just applaud your earnestness in being the best you can be in relationship. And just ultimately, I want you to feel my support, feel my positive encouragement. You’re doing great, and this takes a process. I love that you’re getting support; if you would like more support or more resources, feel free to reach out to me.

You can find me on my website, which is DrJessicaHiggins.com. Click on Contact and you can find the ways to reach me there. Or you can e-mail me at [email protected]

Again, if you are interested in deepening the dialogue with me once a month for 75 minutes for free, let me know, I would love to hear from you. If I get enough interest, we will set up a time once a month to meet and discuss these principles further, get live coaching and deepen the conversation.

Until next time, I hope you take wonderful care.

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