ERP 083: How Vibrant Community Helps Support Healthy Relationship

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Welcome to The Empowered Relationship Podcast, helping you turn relationship challenges into opportunities and setting you up for relationship success. Your host, Dr. Jessica Higgins, is a licensed psychologist and relationship coach who shares valuable tips, tools and resources for you to dramatically improve your relationship.

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Dr. Jessica Higgins: Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is episode 83, titled How Vibrant Community Helps Support Healthy Relationship. This is an interview with Christiane Pelmas. Before we get started, I wanna just invite you, if you were wanting me to create a podcast episode on a topic that you have a curiosity about, please reach out to me.

Also reach out to me if you would like to be on this show and receive live laser coaching with me, and benefit our community here in the Empowered Relationship Community. You can reach me on my website, which is DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Contact and you can find all the details there. Let’s get started with today’s episode.

I’m so pleased to be sharing with you today Christiane Pelmas. She has been in practice as a psychotherapist since 1993. While she’s most concerned with the connection between the human should and the soul of the world, as inspired by the likes of Carl Jung, Marion Woodman, James Hillman and Clarissa Pinkola Estes, her work includes theory and practice from Ecopsychology, Somatics and Wilderness Therapy.

She works with couples and individuals at key threshold crossings and enjoys the initiations which accompany acute life moments.

Thank you so much for being on the show, I’m so excited to have you sharing about community today, and I’m really looking forward to this conversation.

Christiane Pelmas: Thanks Jessica, thank you for having me. I’m delighted to be here.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: We have a shared connection in Boulder and someone recommended you, so I just love getting to network in this virtual world where I don’t know that we would have crossed paths without that introduction, so it’s great to meet you and get to introduce you to my audience.

One of the things that I was intrigued by is your concept of healthy community, particularly as it relates to couples. Would you be open to sharing some of your thoughts about that?

Christiane Pelmas: Yes, and it’s fun because you’ve already introduced it, Jessica. When you talk about the wondrous way that our paths crossed, and how it would never have happened if it weren’t for this person. That’s really a piece of community that just worked in our favor; this healthy community in the way that maps and webs overlap, especially in this virtuous time. But this idea that even across pretty significant terrain –  you’re out there on the West Coast and I’m here on the front range of Colorado… There’s a connection, there’s a fiber that attaches folks and we somehow find each other, and that’s happening across the planet at this point and it’s a really wonderful thing.

To bring it really into the intimate sphere, one of the things that is hobbling to couples, to intimate partnership these days – especially intimate partnership that attempts the virtually impossible of family and secure income and householding, and a sense of vision that involves accumulating some wealth, even if it’s just so that we can pay our insurance bills and make sure that our kids can get to a decent college, even if it’s not anything massively grandiose like an endowment or something, it’s an almost impossible task outside of a container that is community. It’s isolating and it puts so much stress on the dyad. A stress on the dyad that really historically has never been present.

If we really look at the stress that’s on the intimate partnership dyad, the pair of people attempting this wild feat of partnering over time, we’ve never had so much stress on us, ever, in human history of partnering. We have the stress of being each other’s everything; we have the stress of needing to have profound, mind-blowing sex until we’re heading to the grave; we have a stress of needing to be business partners and co-parenting partners, and we have all of those stressors for many of us without community.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I can feel people listening and taking a deep breath, a big sigh… Naming something that so many people feel, but don’t maybe have language for.

Christiane Pelmas: Yes, and when we don’t have language for it, it’s amazing. When we don’t have language for it, we tend to turn toward each other and point fingers, because why wouldn’t we? “Hey, wait a minute, I was told that this was gonna be amazing, and I was gonna feel completed for the first time in my life, and you were gonna do that for me! I’m not feeling that at all. I’m feeling alone, I’m feeling angry, I’m feeling resentful… I don’t wanna be feeling this way, and it must be somebody’s fault.”

We just get into this very solipsistic, turned toward each other process of either overt or covert blaming and resentment. Or we just kind of quietly collapse, or we do things like, “It must be that we should be open, we should be polyamorous. That’s probably what it needs to be.” You know, there’s a little bit of wisdom there, and mostly it falls apart when we attempt to do it from the places that we do in many of the cultures in this country.

It’s a herculean feat that we’re attempting to do outside of community. So then we can turn towards this concept of community and flesh it out a little bit. It looks like if we’re gonna talk about heteronormative culture, heterosexual coupling, we can just say, maybe for the sake of this interview we’ll use that language, for a man and a woman in a more traditional, nuclear family, raising children, working on a progression in their jobs, it’s almost essential — I can take ‘almost’ out of there, it’s essential in my experience for the man to have men in his life with whom he can be speaking truth, asking questions, sharing some of his shame, sharing some of his unanswerable questions.

And equally true for the woman, to have a community of women with which and in which she can be getting a level of intimacy that she really can’t get from her partner. We can say a lot more about what happens there when we try to turn our partner into our best friend, but mostly when we’re embedded in a pretty vibrant community, active, truth-telling community of women and men, we ask less unrealistic things of our intimate partners, and more diversity can thrive between us. And we don’t resent each other for that diversity, we actually are grateful and thank each other for that diversity, because we notice how it allows the relationship to be a third entity and to remain generative in and of itself. That really can only happen when we have outside help here, when we have outside support, resource, input, energy, connection. That’s the vital community that I’m speaking about.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I’m listening to you and I’m just hearing some of the classic phrases that I think some of us experience or hear, which are “Don’t try to make your husband into your best friend”, or “Don’t try to expect your relationship to be your everything.”

Christiane Pelmas: Yes. In fact, one of the things we know at this point, because some research is starting to pull apart this erroneous myth that came out of the ’60s and ’70s and ’80s of the marriage being your everything, and the partner being your everything, and largely that myth had to be written because we were becoming our everything. We were becoming in this place where if we were raising children and we had careers (two-career family) there was no time for anything else. There’s not even time to turn toward each other and say, “Honey, how’s your heart? What the heck did you do today that I might not know about? What don’t I know about you today?” We just fall into bed, exhausted.

The myth really had to be written that yes, we are gonna be our everything, because in fact we’re all we’ve got. We don’t even have time to say hello to the mailman. And we know now that that’s really an impossible structure. We know it’s an impossible structure because there’s no organic, generative structure in any wild system on the planet that lives as an enclosed unit. We know that there’s no generativity in a finite and closed unit that has no generative input, that takes no energy from outside.

One of the things we also know about partnership now is that a certain amount, just the right amount of unknown, just the right amount of uncertainty in a foundation of security, of a sense of well-being and mutual well-being is actually necessary in order for us to maintain the dynamism in our partnerships, regardless of gender, regardless of whether they are “traditional” or “not traditional.” We know that that certain amount of dynamism is essential if we want our partnerships to remain generative. Generative physically, generative intimately, generative emotionally, and generative financially. Generative in terms of fledging healthy, vibrant, curious children into the world.

We know that a certain amount of uncertainty has to be present, and that can’t happen, that gets neutered or monocropped if we’re turning toward our partner and saying, “I’m expecting you to be my absolute best friend”, and that’s the priority that I have for you. We know that those two things can’t coexist.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I am applauding internally to what you’re saying, because I feel so resonant with what you’re describing. There’s this safe container, there’s the security, as well as permission for a level of authenticity and growth that is uncertain, that allows for differences to be somewhat — I mean, it can feel like conflict or risk sometimes, but it’s posing this expansive, generative process that we can get to from this very constrictive place. I’m using this “fist-clenching” – trying to keep it all… I don’t know the language I’m looking for, but I think that’s so well-articulated, and I’m super excited.

The other thing it sounds like you’re saying is that if we’re gonna talk about the female in this heterosexual relationship, if she’s getting her cup filled by these other nurturing, emotionally intimate relationships from her girlfriends, so to speak, or friendships, that she’s approaching the relationship from a place of resource, rather than this place of depletion, and “Cup is empty and I need you to do all these things for me, for me to be okay, so then we can be in a playful dynamic, back and forth in our romance.” Is that true?

Christiane Pelmas: Yeah, absolutely. I think we’re just coming into a conversation around the feminine and women, and what it is that we really require to be well nourished, to be like full sponges, the cups full, as you put it. I don’t actually know of a way for a woman to have her cup full outside of vibrant, intimate, emotionally connected, regular contact with women. There is a way that we feed each other – regardless of orientation, there is a way that we feed each other that we really will never get from our partner.

There’s a real phenomenon now in our culture of the resentful woman; that kind of calcified, bitter, unfed woman. I think a lot of us see it in our private practices if we work with couples, that she comes in feeling almost impenetrable at a certain point. She’ll just close down, and even if her man can make these miraculous shifts, it’s impossible to pierce that fortress that has happened, that concretized fortress, because she’s so malnourished. Beyond her partner, her man being able to do anything to melt that concrete, in my experience it’s actually really deep relationships with her sisters that has the capacity to do that first.

But we’re not thought that. We’re actually thought to fear each other and to be in competition with each other, or to have these sort of coffee-talk relationships with each other, or pseudo-spiritual relationships with each other. There are very few places and communities that are really allowing women to be fierce and curious and unkempt with each other. And it’s an essential thing for us to feel full, to feel like our cups are full.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, I’m very curious on your thoughts on how you help lead people… I mean, part of what you’re doing now is naming it, giving language, and there’s this awareness around what you’re describing that I think invites people into considering a paradigm shift a little bit, from this nuclear, isolated family unit where it’s, like you’re saying, a herculean effort to try to even imagine how to do all these things. The paradigm shift is that to cultivate community and to be mindful about these – I loved your language, around truthtelling, and unkempt… There’s a level of authenticity and revealing that this sisterhood could provide.

I think for men as well… I would love for you if you’re willing to talk a little bit about how to… First of all, I’m trying to say it’s the awareness that I think is the first step, but then there’s some steps to perhaps create this. I will just be honest with you, Christiane, I love my girlfriends and I feel like I have deep connections, but my pattern has been most that I have a few really close friends, and then I’ll get together with the group, but it’s more of a group of people.

I’ve had this interesting experience since I’ve moved to Santa Barbara, California… Luckily, there’s this sport that my husband and I both really enjoy playing, which is beach volleyball… I’ve been playing a lot more women’s volleyball, but I’ve met some phenomenal women. One woman in particular I’ve really befriended, but she has this beautiful space and she has frequently, about once a month, maybe twice a month, women get together, and we end up getting into this circle and we end up talking, and this weaving into this deeper and deeper connectivity. I can feel something cellular almost happening in my being that feels so healing and so nurturing that it’s been surprising, honestly, to watch it. I feel like it’s somewhere in the neighborhood of what you’re describing.

But I just kind of fell into it. It wasn’t something… And I think having a common interest was helpful, but it wasn’t like I intentionally had to seek this out. I feel like some of my listeners are like, “Okay, I feel what you’re saying, it resonates, and I just have no idea… Because most of my friends, we do do the coffee talk, but how do I cultivate this?”

Christiane Pelmas: Yes, well I wanna give you some credit Jessica, because I imagine that it was more than a random “We have this common interest that’s beach volleyball and the before I knew it I was here.” I think – it’s not just what I think, but it’s actually been shown that women have a way of finding each other, and this across culture, because women… It still is dangerous to be born a woman, and we live in a culture that is remarkably free, but still certainly one in two women in her lifetime is abused or is in some way assaulted. So even here, in this culture, where we learn to live a little bit — even if we’re front and center and we have these podcasts and we’re out in front of everybody, we still learn to live a little bit at the fringes. And we also learn we have a sixth sense when it comes to finding each other.

That is what it takes these days, because it’s a kind of radical thing to be a woman in this culture wanting more relationships with women. A lot falls away for us when we do that, and you describe it so brilliantly and so beautifully, and my body just responds when I hear you say that “I just feel like something cellular is happening when I’m getting together with these women and we are dropping down into something deeper. Something’s actually happening”, and good Lord is it happening. Yes, it’s happening. Permission on a level that we can’t even verbally articulate is happening when women get together and do what it sounds like you’re all doing, telling the truth and holding each other in compassion and community.

But it’s hard to find each other, and it takes that first awareness of wanting, the acknowledgement of the longing, and then it also takes a certain availability and a certain curiosity. It’s almost like without coming right out at our school pick-up for our children and saying, “Will you be in my women’s group?” We sort of look a certain way, we have a certain energy, and before you know it, we’re getting together with people.

And it might take a few false starts, because it might take a few starts of “Hey, I’m having a gathering at my house and I’d want you to be part of it. I don’t really know what we’re gonna do, but I have a desire that it’s gonna look like some truth-telling, or we’re just gonna get together and talk about our children and our marriages, and what it means to be a mom, a wife and a partner.”

It might take a couple of false starts, and it might take a couple rounds of “Well, half the women here aren’t really interested or able to tell the truth, so the next round we’re gonna whittle it down to these women, and maybe pull in that woman over there.”

It’s its own for of activism these days, to form really healthy community. It starts with acknowledging a longing and then it looks a whole lot like some sixth sense, just looking and sniffing and checking things out, and sometimes even a couple of false starts.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, yes. There’s something in me that as I’m listening to you I’m like “Oh, it’s a little bit of a risk.” Because at first when you were talking, I’m like “Oh, could you kind of have it couched as like a book club, or…?” But no, if you’re really wanting to be intentional and hold the space for this deeper level of relating, you’re kind of saying “Be real about it.”

Christiane Pelmas: Yeah, more real. Some communities are more open to that than others; certainly Santa Barbara and Boulder are at the top of the list when it comes to communities that really welcome diverse thinking, radical thinking and spiritual community and all these things that probably need to be present and accepted already in order for something to have more chances of success right out of the gate.

It’s a little harder if we’re in Kansas or in urban New Jersey, and people are a little bit more conservative. And yet, I’m in touch with a lot of women, and a lot of women’s communities actually around a globe, and the darnedest things happen – women are connecting mavens. It’s literally in our [unintelligible 00:24:52.14]. So mostly what we have to do is have the audacity to own it in ourselves that we have a longing to have more intimacy with each other. And by god, it happens; it really does happen.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I know, I know. I’m listening to you and I was like… I think this was maybe ten years ago and we had somebody visiting, I had a couple of girlfriends, and this person was actually the wife in a military family. I was like, “Oh, how is this gonna go?” because I didn’t know how receptive… I had never had this deeper… She’s a family member, so I wasn’t sure how she was gonna respond to this deeper level of sharing, and she went deeper than anyone else, and I was like “Okay…” And what I’m feeling as I’m saying that is just if the intention’s there and then there is a placeholder, if somebody’s willing to hold a presence, I think you’re right; I think there’s this invitation that… This sense, the sixth sense that you’re talking about; there’s space for it, and I think if the craving is there and the desire is there, and a little bit of mindfulness, I do agree. I think that it could easily deepen. It usually has a flow, right?

Christiane Pelmas: Yeah, and it helps to have permission, too. It really does. It makes perfect sense psychologically that if we’re gonna get together and we have a desire, some of us have a desire for it to have a certain level of depth, that if we are bringing in a form and we can kind of blame it on the form… “This manual tells us that if we’re gonna have a women’s circle, we should actually start by doing this thing and this thing”, and have a sense of permission that’s often given when we’re adopting an outside form that has suggestions. And none of us have to take the responsibility, which can feel daunting for us if we’re not used to being in that role.

It can feel daunting saying, “Hey, I like how we’re doing this, but this doesn’t feel deep enough, or I’m not feeling like anyone’s being truthful enough. I’m a little bit bored here.” It feels daunting to put ourselves on the line, but if we can say, “Oh, the book says we should be talking using I language, not you language”, then it’s not as personal, but we can still find the benefit, and then we each have ownership over it.

So it is helpful to be able to lean on the wisdom of women who’ve put suggestions and invitations out there.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Do you have resources? Is that something you offer?

Christiane Pelmas: Yeah, there are a number… Depending on what we’re looking for, because there’s all different reasons to start a women’s group. But because of this very thing, about three years ago I published a book that’s pretty small – it’s a guidebook and it comes with a deck of cards. It’s very simple, for this very reason. Nothing complicated. It’s called The Women’s Wisdom Guidebook and Card Deck. It is entirely designed to help us be with each other and get right into the depth of what we know, who we are, and what the bones of us have lived.

Like, “I’m sitting in this group with all of you and you don’t really know me, and I don’t really even know what I’m bringing to this group.” The card deck and the book are designed to help us remember what we know, and allow us both to be utterly unique, but also really see the universality of our experience as women, in some ways. That’s one version of a form that invites women into really authentic community pretty quickly.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Sweet. I wanna get that link for you so I can put it on the show notes. Would that be possible?

Christiane Pelmas: Totally.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay, excellent. Can we shift to men?

Christiane Pelmas: Yeah. Well, it’s interesting because certainly it’s born out in my private practice, but couples counselors will say this over and over again, and there’s a fabulous indigenous saying that says that “When momma ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy.” [laughter] It tends to be true.

We’ve already talked about what’s at least one thing that would help nourish women in heterosexual partnerships that will have a really important infusion into the relationship and serve the men, serve the male partner. So it’s really true that men aren’t being saddled with this concept of being the all in everything, being the empathically-attuned listener, the shoulder to cry on, the stallion stud in bed, the man who knows how to fix the roof and be a sensitive dad, when there’s more realistic expectation on him, he’s just so much more likely to thrive himself.

So that is true, but it’s so essential for men to be getting permission to find their unique version of masculinity and femininity, fatherhood, brotherhood, husband in the community of men. Men need to be getting permission and modeling from each other. Multiple generations of men getting permission from each other, rather than being told by their women how they should be.

We live in a culture that’s got a lot of pathological role modeling for what men and women are supposed to look like. There’s sort of this uber idea of masculinity… And it’s not healthy for men. When men don’t have more on the ground, realistic role modeling with men who are in the trenches themselves… Men who are really, “Hey, I’m within this marriage and I have questions, and I don’t know if it’s okay to fantasize, and I’m happily married. Is it alright? Does that mean something’s wrong with me? What do I do with these feelings, what do I do with my frustration, what do I do with my desire to have a different relationship with my wife?”

Men need to be hearing these questions from each other and they need a lot of permission to tell the truth, and I would say more than women. I think it’s harder for men, in my experience, to sit with each other and really allow vulnerability. That takes a little bit more doing, but it’s equally essential that men are in relationships with each other like that.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: It sounds so validating and strengthening and healing what you’re saying; I couldn’t agree with you more. I know this is primarily something you do in helping coach people into navigating this territory, but do you have any input for men who are listening that, you know… Stereotypically, guys get together to watch sports or have a meal, or a beverage, a beer, or play soccer, whatever; this emotional intimacy feels… I don’t know that they have — I’m sure they have the same sixth sense, but it feels different. Can you speak to…?

Christiane Pelmas: I think it is different, and I think that really allowing the things that feel natural, whether they’re nurtured into being natural or born natural (innate), I think it’s great. I think having a men’s group where men get to play football, it is fabulous. And actually, coming into a sense of trusting each other through the kinesthetic relationship. It would be really unfortunate to deny that men tend to be vastly more kinesthetic than women, and that intimacy happens often times more fluidly and innately, authentically through project, through an outside focus.

We’re starting to wonder this in education, in elementary and middle-age education for boys and girls, that it seems as if boys learn better when there’s a second focus, when they’re not having to sit there and stare at one thing, but they’re actually doing a second thing and learning this other thing at the same time.

It’s dangerous to essentialize like that, but if that’s true, then why is it not true for our men, too? To expect men to come into a room and sit down in a circle, look at each other heartfully – maybe that’s gonna work for some guys, but actually maybe building something and getting some bruises and drawing some blood, and then sitting down with each other and saying, “How was that? What did you notice? Where did I show up for you and where didn’t I? By the way, how’s your marriage? What’s it like being a dad? What are the things that feel really fulfilling to you? What are the things you’re longing for and you have no idea how to ask for?” It’s likely that men are going to be able to access things like that more if they’re allowed to be in their bodies and doing what feels natural and that moves energy in an authentic way for them.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, and like you said, to be able to be in relationship and build trust through activity or through project, that develops that intimacy kinesthetically or physically; so you’re saying it could be an easier bridge to share in that, and then prompt a maybe more deeper conversation. I’m listening to you and I’m like,  yeah, there’d be a risk there to see… I sometimes use this analogy of the iceberg – drop the water line and get a little more real; you can test it and see if somebody is willing to go there. But essentially, you’re saying to be willing to invite that.

Christiane Pelmas: Yes, absolutely. And there are some forms that are just helpful. It’s helpful for one man to be leading each group, and it’s helpful for the group to break up into smaller groups; it’s helpful for them to have a particular thing to work on. Let’s talk about — we’ll stick with a hot topic here, let’s talk about sexual fantasy; there’s so much there that we’re afraid of and ashamed of. Is it even okay? What does it mean? To ask a group to talk about it – and this is just group dynamics across gender – about something that big and that intimate in an entire group, will almost always flop. But break the group down into dyads or triads and give them 15 minutes to talk about a particular thing using a sentence stem, for instance, and then come back into the group as a whole and share what we’ve learned – that’s a whole different ball game and that gives permission for me to access some things that are really hard.
More than women, it is my experience in this culture that men really are shamed out of a lot of some of their most basic, innate, beautiful and essential qualities. It takes a lot of permission from their brothers and their women to even access some of this information in themselves, let alone speak it out loud. Making it easier on each other in these groups by coming into smaller groups and really going slow and asking questions is essential, and totally doable. Men’s groups are thriving in this community, and it’s such a good thing.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, I love it, I love it. So a sentence stem is where you say, “A fantasy that I’ve had recently…” and that’s the prompt and then you fill in the blank.

Christiane Pelmas: Exactly, yeah. Just help people out of the gate, because we tend to just go blank, like “I don’t have anything to say about this.” [unintelligible 00:38:25.10] “Oh, actually I do, it turns out.”

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes… We’re gonna be wrapping up here – is there anything you wanna say around what you’ve seen on the other side, what couples are able to experience with one another when they’re getting support from a vibrant community?

Christiane Pelmas: Yeah, there’s so much resiliency and twinkliness… I’ll just try to steer away from any kind of professional jargon here. There’s just a playfulness and a curiosity and a real respect for each other’s otherness that happens when we give each other permission. In fact, expectation as part of our responsibility in the partnership and to the partnership, and to each other, that we are gonna be taking care of our own wholeness and prioritizing that. When that’s happening, what happens in the dyad, among many other things, trickles down to the children just in a magnificent way. It actually doesn’t trickle down, it just directly feeds the children in a magnificent way to have their parents fed and diverse, differentiated, sovereign in this place.
But there’s just a real, paradoxical, deep ground of health that’s happening as they develop their autonomy and independence and diversity with each other. So it just is an essential and extraordinary, singularly important thing for us to be doing in our partnerships.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, I am thrilled about the work you’re doing. I feel it’s so timely; I feel like we’re all so thirsty for this, and to be able to hear the encouragement and the reminder and the health of what I think we know in our bodies already, and then the invitation. So how do people connect with you?

Christiane Pelmas: Yeah, easy – just go to my website, which is therewilding.com. You can send me an e-mail, you can get in touch with me that way. I’m very accessible. And for women who want to get a hold of the book, that’s just right on my website, and it’s also on Amazon. It’s The Women’s Wisdom Card Deck and Guidebook. It’s a very accessible, very straightforward manual on how to sit with each other, whether it’s your neighbor, your sister, your college girlfriends, and actually have a conversation that is truthful and intimacy-building.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And quick note – do you have anything for men that you would point them to as a guide?

Christiane Pelmas: Well, one thing that’s a fabulous entry point thing, there’s a wonderful online magazine called The Good Men Project. They really are a different business model and they’re a marvelous way to stir the pot for men, so that men can start to feel where it is they have more passion, things they are more interested in… What kind of a man, what version of masculine am I? It’s a really devoted presence on the web, and I have grown to appreciate it greatly. That’s The Good Men Project.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Excellent, I will put the link on the show notes. Christiane, thank you for your time today, thank you for your wisdom and the work you’re doing. It is incredibly important.

Christiane Pelmas: Thank you so much Jessica, it was a delight to speak with you.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Thank you for listening to today’s episode. Again, this is episode 83, How Vibrant Community Helps Support Healthy Relationship. If you have a comment about today’s podcast episode, please visit the show notes page. Again, you can find that on my website, which is DrJessicaHiggins.com. Click on Podcast, and you’ll find the most recent episode at the top. Again, this is #83.

You just scroll down and you can find the comments section below. You’ll also find the links mentioned and a couple bullet points about today’s episode.

Until next time, I hope you take great care.

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