ERP 152: How To Not Abandon Yourself In Relationship, With Dr. Margaret Paul
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Dr. Jessica Higgins: Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 152, “How to not abandon yourself in relationship, with Dr. Margaret Paul.”
Before we get started in today’s episode, I would love to just drop in and ground in the intention of the Empowered Relationship Podcast, and that is to help you feel better equipped, more prepared to navigate intimacy, long-lasting relationship. So when you encounter upset, possible conflict, or insecurity, or a threat, or even joy in ways that you haven’t before, that you’re able to manage your internal world that allows you to integrate and heal perhaps at times, and to be vulnerable and to be present to connecting with your partner more mindfully, skillfully, and with more collaboration.
Ultimately, I would love to support you in experiencing a win/win in relationship. Over the last few podcast episodes I’ve been starting this show inviting you to join me in a collective effort, knowing that we’re a part of a larger community, and it got me thinking that there are ways that I know I can support your further… And if you’re on my list, you’ve received an e-mail where I talked about ways that people generally feel supported; I shared how I typically feel supported when I’m developing myself in relationship, or trying to grow myself… And I really wanted to hear from you specifically how I could support your further. So if you’re not on my e-mail list and you would like me to know, I would love to hear from you. Please e-mail me at [email protected].
So far, the top responses that I’ve received have been starting a Facebook group, and a small group coaching opportunity. I would love to hear from you if there’s other ways that you could feel supported on your journey in developing happy, lasting love.
The other thing that I recognized is so much of my coaching work is in relationship with people, whether or not it’s via video, or in-person, or even on the phone, and I get to be in connection with people. And when I do the podcast, and even develop my programs, I have less contact with you. And when I hear from you guys, it actually does a lot in the way of inspiring me and keeping me motivated to produce content that supports you, because while I don’t mind teaching and I don’t mind delivering this information, the thing that really motivates me and inspires me is knowing that it has an impact, knowing that it makes a difference. That’s the thing that drives me.
All this to say your experience matters dearly to me. I would love your input if there’s ways that I can support you more, or if you’re looking for ways to be more engaged with this curriculum or these principles. So if you have an idea on how I might be able to provide that, I would love to hear from you. And if you have any other feedback or input, I welcome that as well.
Let’s get started with today’s episode.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Dr. Margaret Paul is a bestselling author, relationship expert, and co-creator of the powerful Inner Bonding self-healing process, recommended by actress Lindsay Wagner and singer Alanis Morissette. She has appeared on numerous radio and television shows (including Oprah). Her book titles include “Do I Have to Give Up Me to Be Loved By You”, “Healing Your Aloneness”, “Inner Bonding,” and the recently released “Diet For Divine Connection.” Margaret has successfully worked with thousands around the world and taught classes and seminars for over 50 years.
Dr. Margaret Paul, thank you for being on this show.
Dr. Margaret Paul: You’re welcome. I’m very pleased to be on your show.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I know you do a lot of writing for different magazines, articles – Psychology Today, or is that Mind Body…? I can’t remember.
Dr. Margaret Paul: Yeah, Mindbodygreen.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice, awesome. Well, for listeners who maybe are not familiar with your work, is there anything you wanna share about as it relates to relationship, and some of what you’ve been doing and your story? I know we could probably do several hours, but is there anything you wanna kind of underscore or highlight?
Dr. Margaret Paul: Well, one of the things that I’ve discovered in all these years of work is that there’s actually one underlying reason why relationships fail… And I call this underlying reason “self-abandonment.” Self-abandonment is when people are not taking responsibility, especially emotionally; especially emotional self-abandonment, where they’re not taking responsibility for their own feelings, and then they expect somebody else to do it for them, and then that person is inevitably gonna let them down, they’re gonna be upset.
What happens so often is that people get together at their common level of woundedness, their common level of self-abandonment, or their common level of self love… But usually, it’s the common level of self-abandonment. So then they come into the relationship — instead of coming in from a full place, where they’re really loving themselves and they wanna share their love, they come into the relationship from a place of wanting to get love. They want this person to make them feel like they’re okay, and they’re lovable, and they’re worthy, and they’re safe… Well, the other person wants the same thing, and there’s no way we can do this for somebody else, because this is an inside job, and most people have heard that, that it’s up to us to make ourselves feel happy and worthy and safe on the inner level. It’s just that most people don’t know how to do that, and that’s what the inner bonding process is all about.
So when people come into a relationship without taking responsibility for themselves and expecting somebody else to do that for them, they’re going to run into a lot of problems.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, well said… And as you’re talking, I’m aware of just the vicious cycle of continuing — so many couples have this feeling of banging their head against a wall; they feel like they’re trying to hard, and they’re really strategizing – “That didn’t work. Let me try this other attempt”, but at the underlying place it’s still the essence of what you’re describing, it’s “Help ME feel better.”
Dr. Margaret Paul: Right. And so when they’re expecting the other person to love them in the way they’re not loving themselves, then what happens is they try and control the other person, and that creates huge problems in relationships… Whether they control overtly, with anger or blame or various forms of attack, or they control covertly, by giving themselves up, and people-pleasing, and passive-aggressive behavior, or resistance, or just shutting down, withdrawing… All of these have very, very negative effects on a relationship.
But this is inevitable, because all of us have learned to control as we were growing up; we had to learn this as part of our survival, and a few of us learned how to take responsibility for our own fullness and happiness and peace and joy. So that’s where we are when we come into relationships, and that’s why it becomes so important for people to learn how to love themselves, so they can truly share love with each other. And obviously, if both people are doing that, they are on the path to creating a really wonderful relationship. But if they’re abandoning themselves, that’s not gonna happen.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice. And I feel like in your process you talk about being able to dialogue with the wounded self, and that’s possibly the parts that maybe didn’t get needs met when they were young… I sometimes with clients talk to them about really reparenting places that never got that parenting, because in my mind I’m thinking ideally, in the best-case scenario with parenting, is you help your child have a safe environment, you help them be able to get their needs met, but then you help essentially them begin to learn the process, so that they can then internalize it for themselves, and they then have it as part of their internal structure.
Sometimes I tell clients “Possibly you didn’t get that module, or you didn’t get that curriculum”, and therefore having to go back and really dialogue with that part.
Dr. Margaret Paul: Right. Well, the dialog process is part of inner bonding; it’s actually step three of inner bonding. We dialogue with two aspects of ourselves internally. One is our feelings self, which we can call our soul self, our essence, our inner child… And the other is the wounded self; and the inner child part of us, our soul self exists in the body primarily as our feelings. The wounded self is up in the lower part of the brain; you can call that the ego self. This is the part of us that absorbed many false beliefs about ourselves, and about others, what we can or can’t control… And this part, with most people, is pretty much in control of their lives.
One of the things people learn as they practice inner bonding is they learn to stay more present with their feelings, and they learn that their feelings have very, very important information for us. We didn’t learn how to learn from our feelings, and we didn’t learn how to manage our feelings as we were growing up. We learned how to avoid them, and all the ways that we avoid them actually create a lot of our pain, our anxiety, and depression, and guilt, and shame, and anger, and emptiness, and aloneness, and jealousy… All come from avoiding our feelings.
Just like if you had a child and the child came to you upset, and instead of attending to the child and caring about the child’s feelings, you just went and had a drink or worked on your computer, or some other [unintelligible 00:11:50.25] process. The child would feel rejected, would feel abandoned, and that’s what happens on the inner level – we’re constantly abandoning ourselves by ignoring our feelings, staying up in our head, by judging ourselves and not even allowing ourselves our feelings, judging ourselves for all kinds of things, by turning to various addictions to numb out our feelings, and by making other people responsible for our feelings.
That would be like if you have a child, and instead of taking care of the child, you keep trying to give the child away to somebody; the child’s gonna feel rejected, and that’s what happens on the inner level. As soon as we make somebody else responsible for our feelings instead of us taking responsibility, we feel alone and rejected inside, and then no matter what the other person does, it’s never gonna feel good enough because we’re already rejecting ourselves.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And if I got ahead of myself here in asking about the third step, would you be willing to talk about how you get couples to recognize that self-abandonment is happening? Because I feel so often – and I’m not trying to blame mass media, but so much is in the romantic comedies, that we have this notion that great relationships should just work, or that your partner will know what you want, and be able to do these things for you… So I feel like there’s a tremendous amount of possible fighting with maybe old paradigms or old beliefs to get people to kind of see that perhaps this connecting with themselves, or how self-abandonment has contributed to these difficult dynamics. What do you notice helps people really get the truth of this and start shifting their efforts? Because a lot of people work really hard to get their partner to get on board with what they’re trying to point out.
Dr. Margaret Paul: Yeah, so one of the things I help people to accept, which is not easy for most people, is to accept that they don’t have the power to get somebody else to change; they have the power to change themselves, but they’re helpless over whether other people are gonna be open or closed, or loving or unloving… They don’t have the power over others.
So as they learn to accept that the more they try to change their partner, rather than really take responsibility for themselves, the more conflict they have, because nobody likes it when somebody approaches them, trying to get them to change, trying to get them to be different, trying to get them to behave in certain ways so that you’ll feel better. Nobody likes that. So most people will go into resistance, they’ll get angry, they’ll withdraw, rather than engage in exploring a conflict and reaching resolution.
So what I do when I’m working with couples is I — first of all, I teach each person the inner bonding process. Each person starts to learn how to take responsibility for their own feelings, how to start to get present within their own body, with their feelings, how to start to recognize when they’re operating from a false belief that’s making them miserable… Because that ego wounded self that’s in our lower brain is programmed with tons of false beliefs… And that’s part of the inner bonding process – as I said, in step three, first we explore how we’re treating ourselves, or how somebody else is treating us, that may be causing our pain. And if we’re treating ourselves badly, which is probably the case, then where do we get these beliefs? What happened as we were growing up? What are the beliefs regarding why are we judging ourselves? Why are we turning to various addictions, why are we making somebody else responsible? There’s a lot of beliefs about that that we need to explore.
And so when I’m working with couples, I work with each one, sometimes individually, sometimes as a couple, and they can observe each other’s work, to help them to understand how they’re abandoning themselves and what it would look like to take responsibility for themselves. And for some people that’s really hard, for some people it happens fairly easily, but as they start to do that, they notice [unintelligible 00:16:22.18] in the relationship. They take their eyes off their partner. When they take their eyes off the other person and stop blaming them for their unhappiness and start taking responsibility for their own unhappiness or their own happiness, things start to change in the relationship.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice. So it kind of sounds like you’re saying that you help them recognize their tactics, their control perhaps tactics don’t work, right? That usually results to defensiveness or resistance, and that if they can stay with you to experiment – and some are more able to do that than others – then they get to start to feel a shift, and when they turn towards themselves, and that you’re facilitating them to connect more deeply, that that’s when they start to experience something different happen.
Dr. Margaret Paul: Yes, that’s right, and it’s very important for them to become aware of the various ways that they do try and control… Because let’s say that one partner gets angry and blaming; well, that’s pretty obvious. That’s a pretty obvious form of control. But let’s say the other partner pacifies, gives themselves up, gives in, is overly nice, people-pleasing – that’s harder to recognize as controlling behavior, and yet it is… Because when people are care-taking somebody else and giving themselves up in the process, they have an agenda; they hope if they’re real nice and do what the other person wants, that other person will give them what they want, and that’s not what love is. Love is not give with an agenda; love is something we give when we feel full of love inside, because we’ve been loving ourselves and we share that love with somebody else. It’s not attached to “Well, if I do this for you, then you need to do this for me.” That’s control, that’s not love.
So I teach people how to access a higher form of love, a higher form of wisdom, and that’s what’s in my new book, Diet For Divine Connection. It’s about how do you keep your frequency high enough to access this source of love and wisdom, so that you can learn to take care of yourself, so that you can fill yourself up with love, to share with somebody else. Most people have no idea how to access that love and wisdom that is actually always here for us.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that you’re speaking to this. This is where I get really excited, because so many people who maybe didn’t have the parenting or the modeling or the experience of feeling that unconditional love, or having that place to reference, so that they can then give that to themselves – they’re really petrified and terrified around like “Does this exist?” It’s almost like avoiding it is less painful than turning towards it and then feeling annihilated to not feel any support or any resource… So I love that you’re giving people some guidance around how to really cultivate the inner love.
Is there anything you can say in our episode today that can give just a nugget of what you teach around the self love?
Dr. Margaret Paul: Yeah, so the first part of my book, Diet For Divine Connection, is about our physical frequency. This has to do with what we put into our bodies, and unfortunately, as many people know, with the depleted soils and the pesticides and the GMOs and the factory farms, our food has been really, really depleted… So I encourage people – I don’t recommend a particular diet, but I encourage people to start to really eat cleanly, to try and eat as much organic as they can. I do give some guidelines about what you need to eat in order to create vibrancy and health in your body, because this is what you need – accessing our higher source is about our frequency. Spirit exists at a higher frequency than we do; if we were like spirit we wouldn’t be able to see each other. So we operate in our daily lives at a lower frequency, but we get to raise the frequency of our energy, and one of the ways is by eating cleanly, and that’s the first half of the book.
Then the second half of the book is about inner bonding. And when we’re abandoning ourselves and we’re creating feelings such as anxiety and depression and guilt and shame, we’re operating out of a very low frequency.
In the inner bonding process, there’s only two intentions. One is the intention to learn about what’s loving to yourself and to others, and the other is the intention to protect against painful feelings with some form of controlling, self-abandoning behavior. And so when the intention is to protect and control and avoid, our frequency is way too low to access our higher guidance. But when we move into a true intention to learn about what’s in our highest good, what’s truly loving to ourselves, that raises the frequency. And when along with that we’re putting clean food in our body and supporting our physical health, the frequency goes high enough to access spirit, and it actually becomes quite easy.
This was very amazing to me, because I tried for so many years to access that (what I call at will) divine will, which is to access it at any time you want, all day long. It took me time to realize that it was both the food and the thoughts; that’s why the subtitle is “Beyond junk food and junk thoughts, to at will divine connection”, because it takes both of these in order for people to be operating at a high enough frequency to have at will divine connection.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: That’s so helpful, because I love that you’re gonna give people detailed examples and things to contemplate and processes through the way of steps, but you’re also distilling it to two very basic things to discern between when maybe engaged in any behavior, to contemplate “Is my intention to protect, to control, to resist, or is it to learn and to really–” what was that language? To learn and to…
Dr. Margaret Paul: Yeah, to learn to take loving care of yourself and share your love with others.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, that helps so much to break it down in that simple terms too, because I think that shift is so profound, just even in that contrast.
Dr. Margaret Paul: Right, right… And you know, it’s amazing what happens with people when they recognize the power of their intention, and they start to open to learning about what’s loving to themselves; they start to take care of themselves, both emotionally and physically, and not only does their physical health improve, but that’s when they start to tap into their joy, and their ability to manifest what they want, and to tap into what’s their passion, what’s their sense of purpose in life? So many people are just going through life just doing what they’re supposed to do, and kind of — life is drudgery for them, work is drudgery, and that’s really sad, because it doesn’t have to be that way… And as you practice inner bonding and you learn to tune into your feelings, you start to discover that there’s a blueprint in there for what you came to the planet to offer.
We all have special gifts that we came to offer, and as you practice inner bonding, you get to know who you are in your soul; you start to access that blueprint about what you wanna offer, what would bring you joy, and of course, that’s such a huge help in relationships, because if people are going to work, and they’re hating their work, and they’re coming back every day worn out and exhausted, they don’t have a lot left. But if what they’re doing is really expressing their joy, expressing their gifts, then they come home filled with excitement about what they’re doing in their lives, to share with their partner. And if their partner is also doing what he/she is really loving, then of course that greatly affects relationships.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, I mean… For me, it feels very much that that’s real connection, if two people are in a place of vibrancy and are open and present… The amount of intimacy when people can share space and access one another, rather than sharing space from a very protected, kind of controlled, resistant way – there’s a lot of barriers to that to really feel bonded.
Dr. Margaret Paul: Oh, yeah. They’re miserable all day long, then they come home expecting their partner to make them happy, and that isn’t gonna work.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: [laughs] Right, right. Precisely. Now, you had shared — is there any story that you can share that helps people kind of connect a little bit more, whether or not it’s from your life around inner bonding (you talked about how it’s changed your life), or if there’s a client that you wanna use as an example…? I wonder if that would be helpful for people.
Dr. Margaret Paul: Well, I’m happy to share about my life. I mean, I have many, many thousands of clients whose lives have been changed… But my life… I was not a happy person, and I went to all kinds of therapy and tried everything, and it wasn’t until — well, I met Dr. Erika Chopich, she’s the co-creator of inner bonding… And then spirit brought it through; it was like this miracle that happened for me. Spirit brought through this six-step process, and I started to practice it, and everything changed for me. Everything. Because I had been a caretaker, I had been giving myself up, and it was making me sick, because when you’re trying to take care of everybody else, you’re not taking care of yourself, and eventually you get sick when you’re doing that, and I was getting really sick, and I realized that everything I was doing to caretake everybody else was a form of control.
So I made a decision that I was going to start to be loving to myself, and I kind of felt like the people around me weren’t gonna like it, because I had been caretaker for everyone: for my husband, my parents, my kids, my clients… Everybody. And when you’re giving yourself up for everybody – you know, most people like that. They want you to be doing that. And I’ll tell you, you really find out who loves you when you stop sacrificing yourself and start taking care of yourself, because those people who love you say “Yay! It’s about time. I’m so glad to see you finally supporting yourself”, and those people who have been using you are angry about it… And that’s why it’s hard.
I was in a 30-year marriage, and I had a feeling that if I start to take care of myself, my husband wasn’t gonna like it, and my kids weren’t gonna like it, and my parents weren’t gonna like it… I was scared to death that everybody was gonna leave, and I had to make a decision, that if everybody who I thought loved me left, that I would accept that, that I was no longer willing to leave myself, to abandon myself, to sacrifice myself, that I was willing to lose everybody else rather than lose myself. So that’s actually exactly what happened.
My marriage went on the rocks, my children were mad at me, my parents disowned me. It was really, really hard; I can’t tell you that it wasn’t really hard. But I got my health back, I got my life back, I got my passion, my vibrancy, my aliveness, my spiritual connection, new people came into my life, who were happy to see me take loving care of myself.
Eventually, things got better with my kids, a little bit with my parents, although not really, because they were old and they died before there could be much healing… My ex-husband and I are friends now, which is great… But it was not easy to shift that. So when I work with people who are sacrificing themselves, not taking care of themselves, I do warn them that things might not be so easy when you start to take care of yourself, but there’s such a wonderful light at the end of the tunnel. I actually live my dream life now, and I never would have imagined the life that I live now. I’m so glad that I took that risk, and I’m so glad that I started to bring inner bonding in my life, which I’ve been practicing now for 30 years. It’s natural to me, but I still do it; every single day, I still stay connected with my feelings all day, and I still attend to them any time there’s anything other than happiness and peace and joy and fullness inside, and I stay connected to my higher guidance all day long now.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: What a beautiful expression, from having gone through the fire… I think it’s so important to hear inspirational stories that can help us feel what’s possible, so thank you for sharing that…
Dr. Margaret Paul: You’re welcome.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And it sounds like you’re willing to share the steps of the inner bonding… Would you be willing to do that? I know you kind of did already, but I would love for people to just have a little bit clearer understanding… Step one is…
Dr. Margaret Paul: Yeah, step one is learning to get present in your body, wanting responsibility for your feelings, wanting to learn from them. Step two is that you consciously move into an intention to learn, and you ask for higher love and compassion to be in your heart. And step three is you’re dialoguing with your feelings to find out what’s really going on, you’re dialoguing with the wounded ego part of you to discover the false beliefs.
Step four is you’re dialoguing with your higher guidance, whatever that is for a person, to discover what’s true about any of the beliefs, and what’s loving to you, what’s the loving action.
Then step five, you take that loving action, whatever you’ve been guided to do, and step six, you go back in and you evaluate how you are feeling now as a result of that. Of course, that’s very brief; it’s an in-depth process, it takes time to learn, it takes practice… Anything worth learning takes practice, and this is no exception, but it’s an extremely powerful process.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes… I mean, I feel like I can vouch, even though I haven’t necessarily done it in your exact way; I feel like in some ways I have had experience of this type of thing and I can vouch for the transformation in it… And as you’re talking, I’m also like “Wow, how great for it to be so mapped out in a proven system…” I’m sure as people learn, that they could then in smaller ways even just when somebody asks you to do something and you get a “I don’t know”, that you could possibly say “Well, let me get back to you” and you could run through these steps… Even if it’s not a huge decision, but if you’re trying to practice integrity, I’m sure you could use this system in small ways and in big ways.
Dr. Margaret Paul: Oh yeah, I use it — sometimes it just takes me a minute to go through it, but depending on the situation, other times it may take me hours or even days… But it will always bring you where you need to go if you learn to practice this process. There’s no such thing as it not bringing you where you need to go.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that, I love that. You have such experience to be so confident, and it’s so beautiful. So one other question I have is for people who don’t necessarily resonate with a spiritual philosophy – how do you work with people if they’re not practicing anything per se?
Dr. Margaret Paul: Well, I’ll give you an example. A man came to me – I was working with his wife, and she was spiritually connected, but he came and he said “I don’t have any spiritual belief system, I don’t believe in that, and I don’t want you to lead me there.” I said “Fine.” So what I said to him in step four is just — you know, he’s asking “Well, what’s the truth about this belief, or what’s the loving action?” I told him to ask the air. Just ask the air. And he started to do that.
He came back and said, “Well, I don’t know who’s answering, but when I ask the air, I get really important answers and it’s really helping me.” So I don’t know whatever happened with his belief system, but asking the air worked for him.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice. Well, I like also that you’re giving a buffet of words, whether or not it’s goodness, asking love, asking higher wisdom, the wise part of us, our spirit, or whatever people’s language is, that there’s something that could possibly resonate for people, even if it’s the air.
Dr. Margaret Paul: Right, or their inner wise self. I mean, it doesn’t have to be anything in particular. As long as you’re open to learning and you really wanna learn what’s loving and what’s true, you’re gonna get it.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice. Well, wonderful… Let’s see. I know you kind of talked about how your relationship has changed with others and with yourself, and you’re living your dream life… Is there anything else you wanna say about working the inner bonding, or living the at-will divine connection and how that benefits relationships specifically?
Dr. Margaret Paul: Well, it’s essential for relationships, because if you’re not learning to take loving care of yourself, you’re gonna try and control your partner, and then that’s gonna create the problems. So like I said, the biggest reason that relationships fail is self-abandonment, so learning to love yourself is absolutely essential for creating a loving relationship.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice. Wonderful. Well, is there anything else that you wanna say about what we’ve talked about today before we move into how people can engage with your work?
Dr. Margaret Paul: Well, I just wanna encourage people to do whatever they can — you know, we have so much free help on our website at InnerBonding.com, we have a free course, and a free eBook that goes with it… There’s so much free help, and there’s so much other kinds of help, where people can get help from me, or from facilitators… And I just really wanna encourage people to do what they can to learn and practice inner bonding. It will be so life-changing for you.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Wonderful. And how do people get in touch with your work and these free courses?
Dr. Margaret Paul: So if they go to InnerBonding.com, they can see all the courses… There’s many courses, both free and paid. There’s a phone number right on the homepage if they want to have a session with me. I work on the phone and Skype. I do workshops, I do five-day intensives; I have a five-day intensive coming up in October.
I have these 30-day courses that are quite inexpensive, that really teach people how to love themselves and how to heal their relationships… So there’s just an awful lot that’s offered. Many, many ways that people can learn inner bonding. And I have an online program that’s amazing, called Self Quest. If people like to work on their own, online, this will also teach them inner bonding and have a huge positive impact on their relationship.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Wonderful. Well, thank you for sharing your work with us today, and a snapshot of what you do in this transformational work and helping people love themselves, not abandon themselves, but also be able to cultivate a life full of high vibrancy, deep authentic connection, and really live a dream life, it sounds like.
Dr. Margaret Paul: Right, absolutely.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I hope you have enjoyed today’s interview. If you’re interested in getting access to today’s show notes, you can go to the website, DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast, find all the episodes, with the most recent episode at the top. Click on the episode and you’ll see the show notes, as well as all the links under the section Mentioned.
Again, I wanna encourage you to reach out to me via e-mail, [email protected]about any ways that I may be able to support your further in your relationship. I look forward to hearing from you, and until next time, I hope you take great care.
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