ERP 174: How to Experience More Love in Your Relationship, with Byron Katie
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Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 174, “How to experience more love in your relationship, with Byron Katie.”
Before we get started, I wanna set the tone and the intention of this podcast with you… And that is that we join in conversation to better improve the quality of our connection in relationship, and as we do that, we grow ourselves… Knowing we will be challenged at times, and we will be invited into greater levels of intimacy, if we say yes and if we lean in. And as you’re listening to me set this intention, I wanna invite you to also acknowledge your intention for tuning in what matters to you, what’s important to you as you listen to these episodes. I wanna welcome that and hold space for that.
If you have feedback or wanna contact me, you can find me on my website, which is DrJessicaHiggins.com. Click on Contact and you can find the various ways to reach me there. If you’re interested in today’s show notes, as well as links mentioned, you can also find that on my website, again, DrJessicaHiggins.com. Click on Podcast, and you can find all the episodes there. Again, this is episode 174, “How to experience more love in your relationship, with Byron Katie.”
I feel so privileged to have Byron Katie joining us today. She is a renowned speaker, author and teacher. In just a moment I’m gonna share a little bit about Byron Katie, but before I do that, if you’re interested in learning more about her very powerful story, I wanna encourage you to go to thework.com and click on About. You’ll have to find that at the links below, and I’ll put that link on today’s show notes, again, for easy access… But her more full story in descript is there, and it’s actually an excerpt out of a recent book that’s been published.
In 1986, at the bottom of a ten-year spiral into depression, rage, and self-loathing, Byron Katie woke up one morning to a state of constant joy that has never left her. She realized that when she believed her stressful thoughts, she suffered, but that when she questioned them, she didn’t suffer, and that this is true for every human being. Her simple yet powerful process of inquiry is called The Work.
The Work consists of four questions and the turnarounds, which are a way of experiencing the opposite of what you believe. When you question a thought, you see around it to the choices beyond suffering.
Katie has been bringing The Work to millions of people for more than thirty years. Her public events, weekend workshops, five-day intensives, nine-day School for The Work, and 28-day residential Turnaround House have brought freedom to people all over the world.
Byron Katie’s books include the bestselling Loving What Is, I Need Your Love—Is That True?, A Thousand Names for Joy, and A Mind at Home with Itself.
Let’s get started with today’s interview.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Welcome to the show! It’s such an honor and privilege to have you join us today.
Byron Katie: Thank you.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I know many listeners are familiar with your principles, your teaching and your work, and The Work… For those that may not be familiar, I guess I would love to just help people get to know you a little bit. I know you have a really powerful story, so perhaps if you’re open to sharing a little bit about how you developed this work… And then we can move into talking about the process of inquiry The Work.
Byron Katie: Well, actually the Work is inquiry. It’s a way to identify the thoughts that you’re thinking and believing, and those actual situations that have happened in the past are situations that you imagine will happen in the future. Situations that maybe you fear or dread, for example. The cause of suffering is what we’re thinking and believing in any situation. And if we say something or do something that we feel guilty about, then that is how we’re going to remember the situation. That memory – let’s say you and I have had words, and I said or did something that I feel guilty about… So the next time I think of you, that is how I’m going to see you, and that’s how I’m going to see me – as guilty, as wrong; and then when I see you in my mind’s eye, or I run into you on the street, I’m going to see you as that person that wronged me, harmed me, and I’m seeing me for coming back on to you with something I feel guilty about.
Okay, so what do I do with that? What do I do with that…? On ByronKatie.com there is a worksheet; it’s free of charge. How to do the work is always free of charge on thework.com or byronkatie.com… So I would identify on that worksheet – there are only six questions on the worksheet – what I was thinking and believing about you in that situation when I said or did something that I feel guilty about. This work is meditation; it takes a lot of stillness to sit back in a situation and get in touch with what we were thinking and believing in that situation, in those moments in time. This process is inquiry, a meditative process.
Then when the worksheet is filled in with the thoughts I was thinking and believing then, then I can question them. I have four questions which show us ways of looking at the situation then. Now, I can say more about them, the Work as an experience; it requires an open mind, it requires someone that really wants to look at the cause of their suffering, and free themselves up.
In that process, the next time — let’s say in the future I’m walking down the street, I see you, and we wave; I am connected, I am awake, and I can even cross the street where you are and say “Oh my gosh, Jessica… Remember that conversation we had? When I said/when I did… I am so sincerely sorry”, and I’d only say that if I am. And then I would do whatever it would be to make it right. It’s like there’s no separation.
Now, you don’t have to forgive me or like me or respect me following that, but when I think of you or see you, I respect you. Why? You spoke to me. When I said and did what I did – here you are, you’re speaking to me, you’re listening. Am I connected to you? Do I respect you? Not what you say and do maybe, but there’s so much more to us than that. And when we’re believing something about another human being, all that falls away, and the ego has that focus; when we are taken over by these thoughts that we’re believing about people, that we haven’t questioned, it’s very confusing when we really are just — you know, every human being, we really are just connected to something that is more powerful than what we are thinking and believing. What we’re thinking and believing actually is a smokescreen; it’s like a lot of fog going on, and it keeps us from our essence, and connecting, and seeing people for who and what they really are, and looking at ourselves to see where the problem was, and question it, and see more clearly out of our true nature… And it’s such a simple thing.
Let’s say I thought that you were being selfish… And you know, I would just question that. “She is selfish… Is it true?” That’s the first question. And again, people can find it on thework.com. Then I’m going to imagine me being there with you in that situation where I believe that, and meditate there, and then notice how I reacted and what happened when I believed the thought that you were selfish. Then I get to see my part clearly – there it is. And it does take courage. I have to look at myself, what I said, what I did. Was I unkind? And feel that. That’s a part of how we react when we believe these thoughts.
And then on the last question, “Who would I be without the thought?” In that situation with you, who would I be the thought “She’s selfish”? And then just to witness, like “She is selfish” – if we look at that like a post-it… I pasted that post-in on you, and I take the post-it off, and I look at you, “Who am I with you without the thought that you’re selfish?” and then I get to see so much more. And again, this is a meditative process, so I’m showing a lot there that I can’t…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Predict or anticipate with just that mental exercise…
Byron Katie: Yes, exactly. And then “She is selfish”, turned around, “I am selfish”, and so now I look at me in that situation, “Where was I selfish in that situation?” Well, I interrupted you… I was thinking only of myself. I just in on “I was selfish in that situation”, so the next time I talk with you, I can be very clear about my part… And “She was generous. She was generous”, and now I have to look at that, and that really burns an ego. “She was absolutely selfish” before I started the inquiry, and now I’m supposed to look at “She is generous.” Well, those four questions – so much has shown up in that when I get to “She is generous.” Oh, my goodness… Things become — we’re coming out of a more enlightened mind than when we started with that first question, “Is it true?”
So that is waking up to reality, the reality of our true natures… And it is the end of war, and anyone that is suffering — and I have a lot of experience in that… Anyone that’s suffering, I invite to identify what they’re thinking and believing, put it on the worksheet, and question those thoughts. If I can end the depression and agoraphobia, all the horrible mental condition and physical condition I was in when this work found me, then anyone can do this.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. Your story and the transformation that you experienced personally, and how you were able to develop these appearing to be very simple questions, but the container that they hold for such profound access to way more than what we might be experiencing on that first interaction… And the imagery that I was getting in my head as you were talking, Katie, was how often just myself included, that on the first layer of it we might feel like pit bulls, and holding so tightly to whatever that assumption, or that belief, or that fear, and how we might be protecting, but then we have all the stories and the narrative, and we track back, and we have evidence to support that story, and we can perpetuate that… And as you said, if it’s a rift, people typically sometimes hold grudges for a very long time.
So the container of the work — it’s so powerful, in that it seems like you’re helping people access inside themselves space, with that meditative practice, to then be able to look at what all is going on for them emotionally, mentally, all the imagery and where that’s coming from, and to again, be with it and recognize it, and then question it. It opens up so much… For me it’s like cognitive psychology, it’s psycho-dynamic, it’s Buddhism, it’s all of these things… And even the possibility for vulnerability and forgiveness.
It’s so hard to (I’m sure) do justice to this work in a 30-minute show, but I just wanna describe some of what I feel as you’re talking, and my own experience with it, just how powerful it is… And like you said, you have to really get into this space where you are willing to confront, and then what all can emerge from that.
Byron Katie: Yeah, and we can all go as far as just identifying our judgment on someone, because it shows up for us; we don’t even have to work for it. It’s like we’re talking, and I think “She’s selfish.” And all of a sudden, [unintelligible 00:15:48.21] between that connection I had with you. So we can begin to identify our thoughts even as we’re speaking, because our attitude shifts as those thoughts arise and we believe them. Emotions let us know that we’re thinking those thoughts that we’re feeling guilty over, for example…
So all the help in the world is there for us to become aware of when we’re thinking rightly, justly, and when we’re judging prior to investigation. Jessica, I love how well you share your experience in this; it’s so clear, and I love that you’re in the world, working with people. This work heals relationships, and it doesn’t require the other person. We can do that, and if we never see that person again — it doesn’t matter if they’re even dead or alive. We can heal ourselves, and then when we meet the next human being, we’re more aware, we’re more enlightened to ourselves. Then if we have a problem with that human being, they’re simply there to show us what’s left… And what a beautiful setup that is.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, no kidding. My dissertation was around conscious, intimate relationship, and one of the things that was a theme – it was a qualitative meta-analysis, so I basically looked at nine other studies that looked at conscious relationship, and one of the themes that came out, Katie, was relationship as teacher… And what you’re describing is so often when we’re having these points of contention with someone else… The word came to me of — like, what you’re providing as container of the work is almost a portal to be able to access so much more than what is readily apparent; but the idea of relationship as teacher – I talk about sometimes it’s curriculum for us to work with. That’s the starting place. So I love what you provide; it helps people in so many different layers and dimensions, being able to access the learning and the growth opportunity.
Byron Katie: Well, it truly does call on us to take responsibility for what we are thinking and believing, and our actions… To take responsibility for what I’m thinking and believing, because what I am thinking and believing is the cause of all my trouble, all my depression, all the compulsive over-eating that I used to experience. When the Work found me, Jessica, I smoked, I was over 200 pounds etc. and I picked a cigarette up, and I started to light it, and it looked crazy. Insane. And I began to laugh, and I didn’t smoke that one, nor one since, for over 30 years. And the same for those other patterns. The compulsive over-eating, the choices we make… We question what we believe, and wisdom takes our life over; our choices shift radically.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Katie, as you’re talking, I’m listening and I’m thinking “Is it possible that when someone’s experiencing great levels of suffering, that we turn to these ways of coping to deal with that suffering, but it’s this endless loop, because we’re not actually addressing the suffering”?
Byron Katie: The cause of suffering, exactly.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah.
Byron Katie: Yeah, so we do the best we can, and I’m grateful for every cigarette I smoked and every drug I took, and every drink I drank, and every teacher I’ve ever had, which is everyone and everything… And the saner, the more enlightened I become, the more awake I am to what hurts and what doesn’t, and why, the better my life, and just when you think it can’t get any better, it has to… Just because that is the nature of life.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. There’s a couple things I wanna respond to, if I may… There’s such humanity that it sounds like you’re having compassion for, and I just will even use myself as an example. And I have been brought up in a pretty progressive family, I have an undergrad in psych, I have a Masters, I have a Ph.D., I practice this all the time… And yet, it’s very human to project, or judge, or not even be aware of where that judgment is coming from, and yesterday morning after yoga I was feeling a little irritated at my husband. It was related to his choosing the work that’s meaningful for him in the world; he’s been on this journey, and was feeling some impatience around it, and when I was able to turn that back on me and look at it, I was able to recognize, “Well, there’s so many things that I still wanna do, that I have on my list”, and I didn’t have to do all the questions, but it was very much like how much I possibly am holding judgment on myself, and how much I want to do more, faster, and all of that stuff. Once I can identify that and have some recognition, and emotional process with that, then it frees me up of all of that. It has nothing to do with my husband… So I’m just naming how much we have to work with, and how easy we go to projection, and maybe don’t even understand where it’s coming from…
Byron Katie: Yeah, the ability to look to yourself and take responsibility for your own thinking, your own life, and the way you flip that back to look at yourself, your judgments on him – that also gave you a lot in common, and it also it raises (and as I set in what you were saying) my respect for my husband; he’s doing what I’m not actually taking time out to do, which is to open my life to other ways. He’s doing it, and I’m not, and it shifts everything, as I heard you tell it.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, yes. And I find myself asking these questions to people that I interview a lot, that often times I feel with people who are beginning their journey with some of these teachings, whether or not it’s yours or someone else’s, that I feel a part of the struggle is they don’t always believe in the process, or they don’t always trust… Because when I listen to you, Katie, I feel this profound goodness; like you just said, I didn’t even know it could get better, and it continues to get better, but there is a trusting and a knowing and a belief and a faith in that.
Byron Katie: Yes, and experience in that.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And experience.
Byron Katie: Yeah.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: So I guess I’m just wondering if you have any thoughts around people who struggle around possibly not knowing what’s on the other side, or having tried some techniquey things and have experienced a lot of failure… I wonder what you might say to them.
Byron Katie: Well, I would go to byronkatie.com, and The Work is absolutely free there, and how to do it, and just follow the simple direction and just do one. I have a worksheet there I call the “One belief at a time” worksheet. Now, grab any judgments. Let’s say that this morning at breakfast my husband said something, and I had the thought “It’s not fair.” So I would simply move “It’s not fair” over to the “One belief at a time” worksheet, and the questions are there. I would just follow the simple directions; one sheet, and it moves you, it supports you to go through this simple inquiry for questions and turnarounds.
People can try it for themselves, because this is nothing that anyone else can do for us. If I could set the world free, I would. Now, the world, I have set free in my mind; in my mind’s eye, when I think of someone, I think – or the word that you used a couple of times – I experience a compassionate inner world, a delighted inner world, a connected inner world. So what I believe about someone is this someone I believe them to be in my head, again, whether I am alone or with that person. That “One belief at a time” worksheet – take one judgment on someone, on something, but not yourself, because that’s too close to the ego for a beginner, but some judgment on someone close to you… And you’re all about relationships, Jessica, so that’s where I would start, with your base. Or anything. I wouldn’t limit it as well… And then just follow the yellow brick road on that “One belief at a time” worksheet.
Then there’s no teacher there other than yourself, and you can trust you. If you’re really answering the questions and meditating in them, and staying in that situation, in the moment in time you had the thought in your relationship, or let’s say with your husband, that it’s not fair. He thinks it’s not fair, or it’s not fair.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. So it sounds like you’re saying experiment, and start taking the steps, and you will experience…
Byron Katie: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And also, there’s a helpline on thework.com and byronkatie.com, and people can go there, and it’s absolutely free.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. And Katie, what I love about your resources is that so often when resources are free, there’s still an opt-in. And you don’t have an opt-in. People can just directly download, there’s no e-mail exchange. It’s all accessible, and I think that’s just so great.
Byron Katie: Yeah, you go directly there and it really is free. You don’t have to sign up for anything. There’s no door, it’s just a wide open space for people to enter. Freedom is our birthright, everyone has a right to that, and so the door is open.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I wanna also underscore something that you said, and I feel this often times, whether or not it’s people who are attracted to this show, or how I present things, but… There’s a large amount of people that are pretty successful, and intellectual, and I was reading in your Q&A the invitation, and you keep saying “I wanna just underscore the importance of getting into that meditative space”, because if you just intellectually go through the questions and respond to them on just the intellectual level, you may not have the fuller, richer experience, being able to access those other layers. Can you say anything about helping people get into that meditative space that might be new to this?
Byron Katie: Well, you know, I was sitting with my husband at breakfast this morning, and I had the thought “He’s unkind.” So I would write that down, or maybe I’d put it in my phone under Notes, or something… And then, for your friends that are meditators, and for those of you that aren’t, I would just get very comfortable, close my eyes, and just settle in, and then see in my mind’s eye sitting across from my husband at breakfast, hearing him in my mind’s eye, looking at his attitude in my mind, all of it, and then I would ask myself “He’s unkind. In that situation, he’s unkind. Is it true?” And then I’d witness it. I see what he did, I hear what he did, I’m there. He’s unkind. Is it true? The answer is one syllable, it’s either yes or no. So we just meditate in that situation in our mind’s eye, and [unintelligible 00:29:52.11] and yes is equal to no. We’re just looking for the truth.
And then the third question – witness. I’m going to witness how I react when I believe the thought “He’s unkind.” And then as I see him there, and I see me there, I’m meditating in that situation, I see maybe I gave him the look, or maybe I said “You’re unkind. That’s not fair. What’s the matter with you”, or whatever. I’m just witnessing; I’m not pretending, I am witnessing saying again how I reacted when I believed the thought “He’s unkind.” And I’m feeling the emotions as I witness that. And then I move to that question; when I have really set in it, I move to the last question, “Who or what would I be at the breakfast table with my husband, without the thought ‘He’s unkind?”
Now, I’m not going to pretend, I’m not gonna change his words, I’m not gonna make nice, I’m not going to exchange one thought for another. I’m simply asking, if I remove that post-it from him, in that situation, “He’s unkind”, who would I be without that thought? And then I just witness, and I see him, and I hear him at a level that I wasn’t capable of then, because I was too busy believing. So I get to see what’s in that space.
Then I turn it around. He’s unkind – turn it around to “He’s kind.” Now, the ego is gonna say “But that’s not — he was, and I’m justified in…” Okay, just notice, notice, notice, notice. It’s okay. Just get still. We’re meditating in. We just tried it on like a new pair of shoes. It doesn’t mean it’s true; just try it on, in that situation. He is kind.
So we just meditate and we look at that event again, and just see — again, just trying it on like a new pair of shoes, just to see if it fits. Can we see that there? Now, I’m not gonna make something up. I’m really meditating, I’m there. And then I might fight examples of where he’s kind. And then he’s unkind, another opposite – I was unkind. Okay, now I’m gonna try that on in that situation. Where was I unkind? And then I’m going to feel, I’m going to experience that. I’m going to be there now. I’m meditating now in the then, and it’s waking me up to something that alters my relationship, not just with my husband but with everyone… Because we’re enlightening the mind. I was unkind. So now I can go back to him and I can say “You know, sweetheart, I perceived you as unkind at breakfast this morning, and I gave you the look, and I noticed what I said was demeaning. And I am so sorry for that. I saw you as unkind, and after looking into that, I can see just to put up with me is kind”, and we can both laugh… It’s a way of communicating, making right for pass, so the next time I think of him I’m sitting with a kind man, a kinder man… And it’s not done until it’s done.
The ego has taken over our true identity, so what we’re actually doing is allowing the ego to have its life. We’re not saying “Wrong! Bad! Bad! Evil!” We’re just writing down our judgments and questioning them, and see what’s left, and as we sit in inquiry… I can say that, again, if it weren’t really simple, it never could have found me. It had to be simple; if I can get free, anyone can get free. It’s a process. We either believe our thoughts, or we question them; there’s no other choice. Occasionally an epiphany, but the ego will take it over.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. When you’re talking, I’m almost getting this idea of spiritual hygiene, or psychological well-being, holistic hygiene in doing this work, because if we’re not conscious, perhaps we’re — I mean, this sounds so loaded, but we’re a victim to these judgments, and that then becomes our reality… So this practice invites to have more choice, to have more perspective and access to more reality, and clear and clean a lot of this stuff that allows us to be more free.
Byron Katie: Yes, well said. Well said.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay. Katie, before we wrap up, I’m just wondering, again, for people that might just be getting acquainted with this teaching, do you have any story that you might be able to share with us about a couple that may have been in conflict that used this work, The Work, and what might have happened?
Byron Katie: Oh, my goodness… Hundreds, maybe thousands. But you know, I can go to my own, and share out of my own experience. I don’t have a relationship that I don’t feel comfortable in… And prior to the work, I was not comfortable with people. This is kind of off-topic, but still on, in its own way… But today I can walk into any situation and be comfortable there, whereas before the Work I was not even comfortable with my own family; my mind was so busy judging, judging, judging, judging… I did the Work on my family, and it left me free to be with the human race in a very comfortable way.
I worked with someone yesterday on sitting with someone she was uncomfortable with, and really didn’t like, and was so hurt and angry she wanted to leave the room. So she asked me “What do you do in a situation like that? When you don’t have a worksheet…” And I said, just get really still, as still as you can, sitting across from that person, and listen, and feel the emotions that happen. Maybe there are tears there, maybe you’re so angry you just feel a burning in your chest ready to pop out of your body. Just feel it, and if it gets too tough, just say “I need to leave now”, in a kind way. But don’t storm out, crying… Just listen.
Now, that person, actually, when you’re listening, is giving you your Work. They’re offering it up, free of charge. What you’re thinking and believing about that person is what makes you wanna run away, what makes you want to attack, what makes you not like that person. So after sitting silently, witnessing, feeling your emotions, then go do a “Judge your neighbor” worksheet, and collect all the thoughts you were thinking and believing then, put all those emotions out on paper and all the words you were experiencing out on paper, and put it on the worksheet… And again, only six questions on the worksheet… And then question them. And those of you that are meditators, it might take you a week to question the thoughts on that worksheet; it might take you two weeks. But I invite you to go deeply, be thorough, and what I love about it is it’s just you, with you, and it truly is the truth that sets us free. Our own.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Sorry, I missed that last thing. You said “The truth that sets us free” and what?
Byron Katie: Our own. Our own truth.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Our own truth, yes.
Byron Katie: Not the world’s truth, our own.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah. I love that. And I’m feeling just the depth of intimacy that can occur after the work.
Byron Katie: Oh, my goodness…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: The ability to be in relationship, to be available for intimacy, to be connected.
Byron Katie: Yeah, and the ability to listen and know that the only thing from with that person is what I’m thinking and believing about that person. Now, if it’s wrong, they’re gonna have to deal with that in their life. But what I’m thinking and believing about that person is the cause of my suffering. Now, that is my responsibility. I can’t wait for that person to change, I need help now.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. On that note, would you be able to tell people about what you offer, how they can — yes, you’ve said many times, and I’ll make sure to put the link to that page that has the resources, and all the resources you’ve mentioned, on the show notes for easy access… And I know you offer much more, so for people that are interested in going deeper with you, can you talk a little bit about what you offer?
Byron Katie: Yes, I have Facebook Live things happening, and then I have an event in Ojai that’s free of charge also, and people can come; that’ll be on the website. And I’m going to be at Omega in New York at the end of June, and I really look forward to that. Then I’m going to be in Amsterdam on December, in Stockholm, in Cologne in Germany I’m doing a nine-day event, the school for the Work there, and then another one in Ojai, California, near you in Santa Barbara, in November… And I love when we all come together like that, and together work through our lifetimes.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And I was telling Katie before we got started in today’s interview that I have several clients that actually have gone to Katie’s workshops, and they speak about what an honor and what a privilege it is to be in her presence, be connected to her teachings, and then the life-changing transformation that occurs… So I really encourage anybody that’s resonating with this to check out all that she has to offer.
Thank you so much for the work you’re doing in the world. It’s such an honor to have you on the show today.
Byron Katie: Thank you, Dr. Jessica Higgins. You are so much fun to be with, and your depth is so remarkable, and such a young person… When I was your age, it was difficult to even breathe. Thank you for all that you offer and give and share.
I hope you have enjoyed today’s interview. It was such a pleasure to be with her. After I signed off, I was actually feeling just [unintelligible 00:42:07.10] with gratitude, and feeling how special her teachings are. And if this episode challenged you in some way, or felt beyond what your experience is, again, I wanna encourage you to just try it out for yourself, and just take one step and see what her principles and her teaching can do for you if you struggle with judgment, expectations, or the suffering that our mind, our negative thinking can often lead us into.
You can find all the links mentioned in today’s episode on my website. Again, that’s DrJessicaHiggins.com. Click on Podcast, and you can find today’s episode there. Today’s episode, again, is 174, “How to experience more love in your relationship, with Byron Katie.”
Until next time, I hope you take great care.
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