ERP 179: 4 Keys to Effective Communication – an Interview with Bento Leal
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Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 179, “Four keys to effective communication – an interview with Bento Leal.”
Before we get started, I wanna invite you to take a moment and center with me; perhaps taking a deep breath in, and a deep breath out… Knowing that wherever we are in time and space, that we are joining together in the conversation of improving our romantic relationship. That as we listen to topics, tips, recommendations, that we are looking to be better equipped around developing our relationship, perhaps feeling more well-prepared with all the things that might be getting activated and triggered at times, and also to just deepen in the connection and the intimacy and the bond. And that as we develop our relationship, we also develop ourselves. We are the relationship, we are part of the relationship, so we have to grow ourselves to be more available for deeper levels of intimacy, and that we also grow our relationship.
If you are interested in any links mentioned on today’s episode, you can find that on the show notes on my website, DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast, and you can find all the episodes. Again, today’s episode, 179, “Four keys to effective communication – an interview with Bento Leal.”
Let’s get started with today’s episode.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Bento Leal is a Relationships Skills Trainer and Bestselling Author who has taught marriage and relationship skills classes and parenting skills classes to more than 2500 couples and singles at family resource centers, community organizations, churches, substance abuse recovery programs, county jails and federal prison.
In 2017, he published his first book “4 Essential Keys to Effective Communication in Love, Life, Work—Anywhere!” It continues to be an Amazon Best Seller in several categories and has sold more than 40,000 copies.
Bento, it’s such a privilege to have you on the show, thank you for joining us.
Bento Leal: Thank you, Jessica. Good to be here.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes… And are you open to sharing a little bit about what got you into studying relationship skills, and this field in general, about effective communication?
Bento Leal: Absolutely. Actually, in 2005 I was working for a non-profit here in the Bay Area, in Northern California, and the president of our company – we had just received a federal grant to serve low-income families in the inner city, mainly in the Oakland area, and one of the things was to teach relationship skills, so these families could be healthy, and good communication in the household… And my boss asked me to go and check out this course that was taking place in Sacramento, which is about a two-hour drive away, and to go there for two Saturdays and check it out to see if it would be good for the people we serve. I said “Sure!”, so I drove up with my wife — again, this is 2005… And I’m sitting there with the idea that I’m an observer; I’m gonna check this out and see if it’s good for other people. Because I’m thinking I’m already a good communicator myself.
Well, the lady got into about 15-20 minutes of the course, talking about how to listen more effectively and how sometimes we listen with the intent to speak, rather than to really understand… And the more she’s going into it, the more I realize “Boy, she’s talking directly to me.” And so I go from being an observer to really leaning forward now and being a student in the course, and I realized “Boy, I thought I was a decent communicator, but I’ve got a lot to learn.” That’s really when the light bulb went on, and that really started my odyssey for jumping into this field – mainly because it did so much for me.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: It sounds like a really great experience for you to be of service to others, and then really being receptive and open to be a learner yourself, and recognizing how powerful some of the principles were, and that you were recognizing our own up-leveling in that. Is there anything that you remember and you’re open to sharing out of that class, that really hit you and was one point that really got you in that class, so many years ago?
Bento Leal: Yes. Within the first hour she started talking about what I refer now in my book as empathic listening, or she called it “listening to really understand.” And that’s where you really tune out other thoughts, or what you’re going to say next when you’re listening and really just quiet your mind and focus on the other person… Not only what they’re saying, processing vocabulary, but trying to really understand their meaning and feeling underneath the words that they’re using.
So it really is an adventurous form of deep-dive listening, if you will, into where the other person is coming from, and that is just something I never even thought of before. I thought you listen and you process words, you basically get the message… But here it’s not just receiving information, it’s going out and really trying to get where the other person is coming from, particularly on an emotional topic. If my wife were to say “Hey, I’m gonna go to the store” – well, that’s not a big deal. But if she gets off the phone and says “Hey, I just found out my brother is really, really sick.” Well, now that’s a real listening moment; I’ve gotta really pay attention here what’s going on.
So it was that really big, big pulling back the curtains on what listening could really be that really took me to a whole other place. That was the biggest thing that I got, and that really started me on the journey.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Thank you for saying that. I love that you’re able to identify “Here’s a listening moment” when you recognize emotion might be at play, and that that might require an invitation of different listening skills, and the empathy that you’re speaking about.
Bento Leal: Yeah, absolutely. Empathy became a big term that I thought I knew, but I pretty much thought it was the same as sympathy, which means feel for somebody if they’re got a loss… But empathy is explained as feeling into, or feeling with another person – well, it really transports you from thinking about what you’re about and really try to get yourself, as some people say, in the shoes, or really trying to get inside the heart of the other person… It’s just a whole other universe.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Absolutely, and this is why I’m so excited to have you on this show. This is largely how you frame your tips or your practices in the empathetic space, in communication. But before we go there, let’s just pull back a little bit… What do you see that — because you teach a lot of classes, do a lot of couples, and you’re really reaching a lot of people who are interested in increasing skill in this way… This is one of the things that people comment a lot about in relationship – “We struggle with communication.” What do you see some of the bigger challenges, problems, hurdles that couples and people are experiencing with inter-personal communication?
Bento Leal: The first two that really stick out is again, the listening piece. People don’t seem to listen very well, even though they think they used a Q-tip in the morning, their ear is wide open, they know vocabulary – okay, they’re good to go. But that’s like saying “I bought a hammer at Home Depot and now I know how to build a house.” It’s not the same. You’ve still gotta learn some skills how to use your hearing. Also, the studies are out right now on how to really read body language and tone of voice. It’s not just audio, you’ve gotta listen to the whole person, with all your senses.
So I think really listen to understand, rather than listening and preparing to speak is really maybe number one. Number two would be how to express yourself, especially if you’re upset, or it’s an emotional topic and you’ve got your point of view, they’ve got their point of view… Instead of just blurting out and thinking “Well, I’m being honest”, but then you come out with flames and you basically blow the other person away and you expect them to be open to hear what you have to say – well, you’ve just shut them down, and they wanna get defensive right now, and either react, or shut down, that kind of thing.
So I think there’s two things – how to really listen… The biggest problems I’ve seen is people don’t listen very well, and sometimes they’ll not think before they speak and just blurt out stuff, and it really just shuts things down. So then when communication does flow, where there’s trust and there’s safety, and you feel you can share your heart and be heard, and the other person can do likewise, regardless of the topic, when it doesn’t feel safe, then I term it as it becomes a thinning of the relationship… Kind of like “Well, what happened to that couple? They’ve split up.” Well, it didn’t happen overnight, it happened over time, and it really just became “We just couldn’t communicate anymore.”
What I’ve also found in my classes is – and many times I’ve had people say this; they confess it right in the class… “I came in the door hoping that he would get something out of this class” or “I came in the door hoping she would learn something. She really needs to learn some things”, and pretty early in the class they’ve realized “Boy, it’s a really look-in-the-mirror moment, where I’ve gotta take a look and say, well, they may need some changes, but I’ve gotta make some changes myself.”
Those are the things I see – basically, listening and speaking, and trying to get those things right.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: You’ve been doing this for a number of years… Have you found – as I’m listening to you and just recognizing how overwhelmed people are, typically with just the pace of life…
Bento Leal: Yeah.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Even the smartphones we all have, and just being plugged in, or having children – just all the demands. Do you find that that distraction also plays a role?
Bento Leal: Oh, absolutely. There’s a lot of ways that people are anxious, and busy, and short fuse, and easily triggered… And I get into that also in my book, about how important it is — in fact, a very first skill that I use in the 4 Keys, the very first key is what I call empathic awareness, whcih means to respect yourself and respect the other person, and how you can get into a positive frame of mind so you’re seeing the big picture about yourself and the other person… And a lot of times this is positive self-talk, it may be meditation, or it could be prayer, it could be walks in nature… No matter how busy we are, we’ve gotta be able to take the time to get to a calm place.
Because if we’re always hypering on edge, even if we “know skills”, we’re gonna be reckless with them; we’re not gonna use them very well. We’re gonna pop off, or say or do something that’s not gonna work. But I think you bring up a great point – in our fast-paces world, even daily life, it’s valuable and very important to take the time to chill out, get in my good space, and try to carry that throughout the day so that I can control my attitude and emotions, rather than the forces around me dictating my behavior.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: So important.
Bento Leal: I think it is really a big deal, yeah.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Just even as you were describing, I’ve used in previous podcast episodes how perhaps at the end of a work day, and I’m preparing a meal, and my husband’s telling me about his day – that can work, sometimes… But there are times where he’s actually talking about something really important and he’s wanting my full attention, and I have to recognize, or even say really explicitly “Would you like me to stop?”, because it does mean delaying our meal, but it does put priority on this empathetic listening that you’re describing around “I’m really with you.” That’s something that we negotiate, but I can see how easy it is to have a miss there.
Bento Leal: Right. You bring up a great point – there you are, busy trying to prepare the meal, and you’ve had a busy day, and now there’s a certain amount of time to get the meal done, and now your husband is sitting over here, talking about something really deep. So now you’ve got two things. Which one are you gonna focus on? You don’t wanna short-change either.
So with that, I think you did the right thing, you asked your husband “Honey, I’m cooking right now. Would you rather have me pause, so I can focus on what you’re saying, or do you wanna share more with me after dinner is done?” So you kind of give the opportunity to schedule one or the other, so that you don’t have a divided mind on either activity that you’re doing.
But being able to say that, rather than “Mm-hm…” – there you are, cooking, and you’re half-listening, and he thinks you’re getting the whole picture, but you’re really not, and then… There’s a miscommunication there. He thinks you got it all, and you really didn’t.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Mm-hm… And that I don’t perhaps respond in a real attuned way. I’m like “Yeah, great. Got it.” Content, like you’re saying, but I don’t actually have it.
Bento Leal: [laughs] Right. And he’ll think “Really? That’s all you’ve gotta say? I’ve just shared something really [unintelligible 00:14:56.09].” But yeah, sometimes that little negotiation – I think that’s a good term you brought up there – is the listener now, that means you, you’re in a position of “Well, do I focus on this or do I focus on that? Because I wanna give 100% to either one.” And to be able to ask the other person.
Sometimes he might say “That’s fine, honey. Just focus on the dinner. Let’s share about it afterwards.” Now you’re off the hook, and it’s very clear. He knows he doesn’t have to talk about it, and he knows you can focus on that… Or he might say “Yeah honey, if you could just pause dinner for a minute I’d really appreciate it.” Now you know – okay, turn off the stove, or whatever you’re doing, sit down and focus on what he’s talking about, even if dinner is 20 minutes late, or whatever.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. Bento, I know you were gonna get into the four keys of effective communication that you speak about in your book, but before we do that, I guess I’m also recognizing in my example with my husband – he knows I care, he knows I wanna listen, and I do wanna listen; that’s something we’ve cultivated in our years of being together. There’s that trust there. Do you in your classes have couples that are coming that are in high conflict, that perhaps don’t have this good will, or they’re already harboring resentment or injury?
Bento Leal: Yes. In any class you’ll get couples that are kind of like in triage mode; they come through the door — I have one couple coming to my class, and at the end of the class the lady stood up and said “Y’all didn’t know this, but we had already said we’re gonna get a divorce, but after coming to this class we realized we learned some skills, and so we pulled back on the divorce. We think we’ve got a second chance.” So sometimes you get that. And sometimes you get couples that are doing fine, but they wanna learn something more. They don’t think they know everything, so they can take their happy relationship to another level. So you get everything from those extremes and everything in between.
And I always tell people, a class is a class. If you’re a psychologist, as you are, and others – well, that’s where maybe one-on-one, a couple to the person supporting in the counseling position, is more one-on-one with that couple. In a class there’s only so much you can cover with a group of people in a room, and how deep-dive you can go per couple or per person. But I do find many times that going to a relationship skills class itself can be enough for this couple that thought they were just intractable, to just come to an awareness, “You know, I haven’t been listening that well. Maybe if we just do this… Maybe if we just do that…” So they learn even in the practice of the class and in the classes I teach and I demonstrate, and then they actually practice in the class the skill… It’s really important that they practice it before they leave the classroom. They can’t just hear the guy that’s talking in front of the room and that’s it; there’s gotta be practice, by pair or by couple, and then we process how that went as a group, and then they go out of class.
Anyway, I think that for a lot of people that’s enough, but for some of them I tell them — especially during a break I might say “It sounds like you’ve got some really deep stuff here to work out. A class will only take you so far. You might consider going to a counselor.”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Gotcha. Now, Bento, there’s something else you’re saying, and I wonder if you do anything around this – when a couple is coming into your class with the mindset of “Oh, the secret… I hope that my partner really gets the error of their ways”, and really hoping that that’s gonna get pointed out and illuminated, and then they have the recognition of “Oh, I have some accountability here. My ownership…” Is there anything you’re doing to help create safety, or to help create the opportunity to take a reflective look and take ownership for their own behavior?
Bento Leal: Well, one of the first things I do is I give a little explanation upfront why I’m doing this class… Basically, as we said earlier at the intro, I thought I was learning this stuff for other people, but actually it helped me a lot. I didn’t realize I wasn’t listening very well. So they learn immediately in the class that this professional instructor in front of the room has been dealing wiht some of the same stuff they’re dealing with; it’s not like he came from the mountain top and he’s got the answers. No, he also was wrestling with some of the same stuff. So I think that making that connection that “Hey, I’m where you’re at, and I’ve learned a few things”, that has helped.
Then as I ask people to be open, you’re gonna hear some things — you might be here because you think it’ll help your partner, or it’ll help your family, but I ask you to take a moment to pause and just be open to learn some things for yourself. This is really a self-improvement class more than anything else… And to just be open to new things.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice.
Bento Leal: Once I start doing that, and start doing a demo with one or two people in front of the room, and we process the demo on a particular topic, and then they go by pair, and then I go around the room and try to sit in and maybe coach or sit on the sideline with that couple for a few minutes on their dialogue, and then I’ll go to another one, and I might say a word here or there to help them stay on track… I think they just learn early that “Oh, if we just practice these skills, even if we’re rookies at them, we can make some progress.” And yeah, especially if it’s a multi-week course, then they can really improve a lot over time.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice. Well, thank you for letting me take that little tangent, because I am aware that as someone might be listening to this podcast, it’s a download. They’re getting the tips, and they’re getting the suggestions, and possibly some stories around how that might look, so that they can identify with it… But really, the question of my asking that is we’re all in this together, and that they don’t maybe have the same experience of being in a group and getting a chance to see a fellow person who is struggling with it and like “Oh, I’m not alone.” That’s one of the beautiful things about a group, is getting a chance to recognize how intimate relationship is so personal and so private, and we rarely are open with others about it, particularly the hardships… So to have a group and have that really be normalized – I think that’s where my question is coming from, before we launch into your keys.
Bento Leal: Yeah. Well, maybe I can just address that… One of the reasons I wrote my book — see, I taught the class first, my course; I’ve been teaching different relationship skills curricula, and I decided to make a more condensed format, make my own program that actually could be taught in about 4-5 hours. Then I’ve done that a lot, versus a 12-hour or 16-hour multi-day course. And it was from my condensed class, with my own examples, and the way I like to teach it etc. that I just said “Hey, I think I’ve got a book here.” Because not everybody is gonna be able to go to a class, just like what you’re talking about; that’s why you have your podcast.
So just like your listener now on your podcast is like “Well, I’m not in a class. What can I do?”, so I tried to take my class and, if you will, put it in a can, and call it a book. So people can read the book, it’s in audio fashion, they can get an audio, it’s about a two hours and fifteen minutes audiobook, or they can get Kindle, or they can get the paperback. It’s on Amazon.
Fortunately, I’ve got a lot of good reviews back, saying “This has really helped me a lot.” Because one of the things I also did was put at the end of most of the chapters, before they go to the next chapter, I have actually self-reflection questions, and little moments for them to write in what they got. So in a sense, it’s kind of like a class in a book, if you will, in terms of explaining, and giving the anecdotal stuff, and giving the skills, and the little stories here and there… And then they get a chance to say “Okay, what does this mean to me?” and do a little reflection on that. People have said it’s helped them a lot.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Great. So I will have the link on the show notes for that book, for people who are interested in it. For people that are listening today and wanna get a sense of the four keys to effective communication – you mentioned the first one, which is empathetic awareness.
Bento Leal: Yeah.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Is there more you wanna say about that?
Bento Leal: Well, I make that number one. I haven’t really seen other courses teach that per se. They mostly get into listening, and they get into speaking… But I felt, in my classes, before we get anywhere, if I don’t respect you and you don’t respect me, and I don’t even respect myself, then even if I learn skills, I’m kind of starting from not a very good place. So I wanted to pause all the listening and speaking for a moment and just get into being empathically aware of my own unique and special value as a person, and looking across at my spouse or somebody else and thinking, before we even open our mouths, “This is also a unique and special person, and I’ve gotta treat them with respect.”
And I think that’s the underlying current, and I see sometimes couples they’ll forget that and they’ll throw the baby out with the bathwater. They’re worried about this point, or that point, and suddenly the person is not a person anymore, but a problem that needs to be fixed. And when you think of that person as a problem, versus a person that I have a problem with, then you’ve dehumanized them if you just think they’re a problem.
So I think the very first thing is recognize your own unique and special value as a human being, whether you do that from a religious, faith-based point of view, or just even a human point of view, either way… Just that “I’m unique, I am valuable, and this other person also.” I think that’s number one.
Then I get into the other skills of empathic listening, speaking and putting them together for empathic dialogue. But I think empathic awareness is really ground zero, if you will. [unintelligible 00:25:20.13]
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Do you have a story that you might be able to share around what that might look like? You’re giving us really good prompts and directives around what to focus on; I’m just curious if you have a story or any example…
Bento Leal: Again, what I’ve done in the class mode – yeah, it really helps a lot. It really calms things down. I say “What did that feel like?” There’s a statement I have them say to each other, “You’re a unique and special person that I value.” There’s like a paragraph that first of all they say to themselves as they close their eyes, and I recite it, and then they say it to each other. And then I say “How did that go?” and people say “It felt really good to hear that. It felt really good to say that.” It felt really good to say that “I am unique, special and valuable”, and it felt good to say to the other person “You’re unique, special and valuable.” And even in that few seconds the other person felt really good to hear it, as well as to say it themselves. I think it creates a nice starting point for two respective people now who are going to have dialogue.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, I really appreciate what you’re saying. I know I talk a lot about awareness in the sense of getting clear around what’s going on when you have an issue, so you have it pretty fleshed out, so that that communication can be a little more clear… And I really love the invitation to recognize the strength of both individuals – myself and my partner – and the relationship, and really hold value for that. If I can get psychological for a minute, it’s almost as if we are increasing our perspective and in some ways we can be so overly identified with the pain that we are the pain, and the pain is everything, and the problem is so big, and we lose sight of the bigger perspective of like “This is someone I love, and I committed to.” So I think you’re giving a container of strength and recognition of that value, and I love that.
Bento Leal: Well, thank you. In one of the latter chapters of my book I talk about “Nurture your relationship garden.” Relationship is its own garden. I’ve got three kids, and each one is unique. They’re all adults now, but this one requires some kind of different care than that one, etc. It’s not only how do you put out fires in your relationship, but how do you tend to your relationship, how do you take care of it, versus “We haven’t done anything for a while, and now there’s a big weed we’ve gotta deal with.” Well, if you take care of your garden, you can nip things early if you see them. You’re always pouring the positives in there. You are telling people what you appreciate about them, what you admire about them, and on a regular basis. So you’re constantly watering your garden with health and nutrition, such that if something were to come up, it doesn’t come on zero soil, it comes on something that’s prepared, and moist, and healthy, and you can deal with things.
Yeah, I tell people, the skills for communication are not “Okay, when you have a problem, break glass and pull out the extinguisher and figure it out.” If you’re not using the skills in the positive experiences of your life, well you’re gonna be unfamiliar with how to use them when you have difficulties come up, so… Pouring in the good stuff in the relationship. I really thing that’s a really key thing, not just “Okay, how do we solve a problem?”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. Great. Well, do you wanna take us into the next key?
Bento Leal: Yeah. The first one was empathic awareness, that I mentioned, and then the next one is empathic listening, which is really listening to understand, not to fix. Particularly, I go into detail in the book on — first of all, you’ve gotta quiet your mind and focus on the other person as they are talking to you; pause the video in your head and stay with their video, I mention it like that. Then listen fully and openly to what they are saying, even if it may be critical to you and it’s easier for you to get defensive – well, calm down; you’ll get your chance to share later… Listen all the way through to what they’re saying. Put yourself in a vulnerable, open position, and then listen through the words to what they’re saying.
Then what I find is really important, and a lot of programs will say this – it’s often called reflective listening, or power listening, or active listening (I call it empathic listening) is say back the essence of what the other person said, to make sure you got it right, and they feel understood. Because if you just nod your head to what they’re saying, especially an emotional topic, they might think you’ve got it all, but maybe you’ve got 50%. Or maybe you’re nodding your head at a total misinterpretation of what they said. So being able to articulate back, “Okay, so you feel this” or “This is what you would like” or “From what you’re saying, this is what I’m hearing you say…”, then you just make sure you got it right, and that’s a big one.
That’s empathic listening, and again, it really makes sure you get what the person is saying, and what they’re feeling.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, and you’re saying feeling – a lot of times people will give the narrative around the story from their perspective, and when you’re talking about empathy, that’s really also inviting the emotion, and the emotion is often really key, and is often times scary to reveal. So when someone’s very attentive and there is that setup of valuing each person in the relationship, it invites a little more safety, and that this sometimes might take some practice, like you were talking.
If you’re noticing the reaction, or the way they’re articulating seems a little blamy, or just managing — and you’re saying “Calm down”, do you have any things that you help people calm down with?
Bento Leal: Well, I basically say they’re showing what’s on their heart and mind of what they’re concerned about; particularly let’s say my wife or somebody wanted to critique me for something, it’s very natural for me to wanna incline toward defensiveness to protect myself… But I’ll just tell people, as I tell myself, “Now, just listen all the way through”, to totally understand where they’re coming from. This may be very useful for you to hear, and don’t take it as an attack, to try to hurt you, as much as they’re trying to share something that they’re very concerned about.
Also on the flipside I will then explain to the — and that gets into the speaking skill… If you speak in an attack mode, don’t be surprised that the other person is gonna clam up and put a wall up and not wanna hear what you have to say, because they don’t wanna get hurt. So how do you express yourself in a way that is palatable to be able to be received by the other person; even if it’s a hot topic, how do you say it without flames.
Then I get into using I statements, for example. As I mention in the book, instead of “You always do this, you always do that”, which is an accusatory “you”, to reframe that and say “When you spoke to me like that, or when you did this, I felt…” So rather than “You’re this, you’re that”, “When you did that, I felt…” So it becomes more of an I statement, rather than a finger-pointing, accusatory “you” statement. That’s more of what I get into on the speaking side.
But from the listening side, it’s just listen all the way through, and I also tell people “You’re gonna get your turn to share.” We’ve gotta have rules of the game, if you will; otherwise communication is not gonna work very well. So there’s listening rules, and there’s also speaking rules. And again, it starts with that empathic awareness, I think, of an underlying current of mutual respect.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And you’re talking about the third key, which is the speaking, is that right?
Bento Leal: Yeah. The speaking skill is very important. I talk about, first of all, pause to gather your thoughts, clarify what you wanna say before you say it, even if it’s just a couple of seconds. Calm down your tone of voice, share what you wanna say… Again, especially if it’s a hot topic. I use the quote “If you blurt, you could hurt”, so… Careful with that one. That’s important.
And then express with respect, no matter what, and make your points clear. Don’t be vague. “You never listen to me.” That’s kind of a global statement. But if the person were to say “When I spoke to you this morning and you were watching TV, instead of turning it off and hearing what I wanted to say, you kind of half-heartedly listened to me. I felt really frustrated by that.” Now, that’s very local; I can put my eyes on that, and ears, and sense on that, and I can recall what you were talking about, versus the global point.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: What’s an example of the global? I think I know, but just to give more description…
Bento Leal: Well, here’s one that comes up. Let’s say a person really wants to go out, and they haven’t gone out together as a couple; I had this in my class, one lady brought this up… “I just wondered when he was gonna get it in his mind that we wanna go out to dinner.” And it’s unfair to expect another person to read your mind. It’s just not gonna work like that. So it’s better to say “Honey, we haven’t gone out in a while. Can we just go out?”, rather than just somehow them to intuit that you feel like it’s time to go out. I think that kind of thing can come up. That would be just one example I can recall.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right. And I imagine too, to even go into — when I hear you say the global, I’m thinking more broad, like “You never go out. All you wanna do is stay home”, and it’s harder to kind of really address that, because it’s this huge, multiple occasion characterization.
Bento Leal: Yeah, big sweeping strokes. Always and nevers should be stricken from the vocabulary, because they’re really probably inaccurate. Always and never are big, extreme words…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right, because the listener is gonna be paying attention to the times that they’re not, to rebuttal.
Bento Leal: Yeah, yeah. But the words “often” are okay, or “sometimes.” But once you get global or sweeping, then it’s fight mode now. It’s probably inaccurate as well.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Do you find that people struggle with the empathetic speaking around being able to frame their experience as an I statement, or do you experience people that get that rather easily?
Bento Leal: It takes a little time for that. Most people will say in the heat of the moment it’s hard to remember to do that… But then they’ll just as easily say “But when I blew up at the person, it took time to recover from that conversation.” So they know that it really never works well to blow up. Nobody ever said “Boy, that worked out really well.” There’s usually some collateral damage that had to be cleaned up. So they had their own track record of knowing that blowing up never really works for the long or short-term.
But I just tell them “Try to pause.” It’s hard to do it in the heat of the moment, but if you can just pause for a second… That whole thing of “Count to ten before you say something”, it really makes a lot of sense. I still battle with that now. I’m a human being, too. Even though I teach this content, I know that it’s an ongoing thing; you never master it where you don’t have to think about it anymore. It’s ongoing; your life is always changing, you’re always growing and changing, and life has got things coming your way… You’re always needing to remind yourself and try to stay sharp. It’s like sharpening a saw, or sharpening anything – it gets dull if you’re not taking care of it.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well said. I’m in the same boat with you, Bento. I feel that when there’s a disrupt or an issue, some type of an injury that I’m feeling, my impulse is to wanna call it out, “And you rah-rah-rah…” And I know better; I’ve been around the block, like you’re saying, and I know that’s not effective, and I am so committed to this work that I will — I mean, it looks like for me sometimes I have to journal all this stuff that just wants to kind of spew, and then I get to the deeper layer, and… It’s not for me always available. I actually have to probe and really dig in into what’s going on. Often I’m scared, or often I’m hurt, or something else that’s much more vulnerable is underneath, and it’s typically not my first reaction. I mean, granted, I’m a little more able to access that when I practice it a lot, like you’re saying, if I’m sharpening, and also if it’s not as intense. So on a scale from one to ten, I could probably pretty easily do that anywhere from like three to even seven, but once I start getting up into the eight or nine and I’m really hurt, really activated, I’m not gonna be able to calibrate and be able to offer that immediately. It will take some personal time to kind of really get at that, to then be able to have that conversation.
Bento Leal: Exactly, exactly. I wrote it right in the book too, and also in my own life, if I’ve said something was untoward, or not well thought out, or hurtful to the other person, even though I feel confident about the point I want to share, but the way I shared it came across abrasively or hurtful, then maybe later I’ll say “I’m really sorry. When I talked about that earlier, I’ve been thinking about it, and I think I did that totally wrong. I’m really sorry if hurt you with that. I do want to have that discussion if you’re open to it, I’d like to try that again… But I just wanna say that the way I came across was not right. I’m sorry.”
And sometimes they’ll say “Okay, that’s alright.” And I’ve had one of the persons say “No, no, no. Not now. I’m still stunned by it. Maybe later.” Even if you apologize, you’re not gonna get forgiveness instantly sometimes. [unintelligible 00:40:09.05] you just blurted out, but you don’t realize how deep that hurt went. It might take a moment, it might take a day or two, or whatever. But sometimes – often times – the person will say “Okay, let’s start over.” And then more thoughtfully, you recover and do it right… And it shows that you’re vulnerable, it shows that you’re willing to learn, it shows that you’re willing to take responsibility for your miscommunication, which is admirable.
And another thing I’ll bring out here is when kids – and when we had these federal grants to do these classes for couples – it was mainly because they wanted the kids to do well in a nutritious home. We got the grant mainly because they were concerned about the well-being of the children. When kids can see mom and dad talk about things in skillful ways, and listen to each other, the kids are gonna feel, first of all “This is a safe place to be. In our house it’s safe”, and also “Mom and dad work things out.”
Now, couples may not always share laundry with each other in front of the kids, big-time stuff, but just the manner in which the parents communicate to each other, whether it’s a happy topic or even a difficult issue, when kids see that mom and dad are communicating well, kids will learn that that’s the way to do it. And a lot of these skills aren’t taught in schools, or whatever. I’m teaching classes now to adults in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s and older, that say “Boy, how come I didn’t learn that earlier in life?” And they got their job, they got their career, they’re rich some of them, or they’re whatever, and it’s like “But I still don’t know how to listen, I still don’t know how to talk.”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, so incredibly important and powerful, and agreed. I just was meeting with a couple of mine – I think this was a couple days ago – and she was sharing before I started our session that her very young daughter the other day, they had sat on the couch and her daughter wanted to sit kind of close and touch arm to arm, and her daughter said… I think she’s like three, or something… And was like “I feel so loved when we’re touching and we’re close”, and just to be able to share that, she was so proud that her daughter was able to articulate, like “I feel so loved when we can have physical closeness, and affection.” Again, if we don’t have the environment, it’s sometimes hard to reveal that, or even be able to vocalize that.
Bento Leal: Exactly.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Great. So do you wanna take us into your last, fourth key?
Bento Leal: Well, the fourth key is simply to put the first three keys together into harmony and into dialogue. That would mean that if you and I are talking, that I have empathic awareness of your value, as well as my own. That’s the number one skill. That I express myself skillfully, with empathic speaking skill, thoughtfully to my concern; ideally, that you’ll be able to listen to me with empathy and to understand where I’m coming from… And then we take turns, and then it’s your turn to share on that subject; and then I get to listen.
So empathic dialogue is really putting all those things together, whether we’re talking about something exciting, like “Let’s plan our vacation”, to “Hey, I’m really concerned about this issue” or “Our finances are tough”, or “I’m concerned about little Johnny”, or whatever… We can talk about anything.
One thing I’ve found in my class – and other people in this field have also – is that if even one person uses the skills and the other person even has no idea about the skills; they haven’t read the book, they haven’t been to class, they don’t know about it… But if one person starts calming down, it will make the conversation go better, because the other person’s fire won’t be met with fire, if you can see where I’m coming from. And there’s not gonna be ignition where we’re now fire-breathing dragons at each other; even if the other person is upset and they say things that they blurt and it’s kind of hurtful, but I kind of keep my composure and I listen with empathy, “Okay, so you’re really upset when I did this, upset when I did that”, but I keep my voice level down, I don’t meet fire with fire – well, eventually that person will (if you will) flame itself out and will calm down. I’ve seen where if even one person uses the skills, the situation can be better.
I’ve even had people that report back to me “Yeah, I was using the skills and my partner was saying “You’re different now. You’re not blowing up like you used to. What’s going on here?” Well, I’m learning how to listen. I really wanna understand you.” Wow, well that’s new. So then you’ll get that kind of thing.
So yeah, empathic dialogue is really putting it together, so that we can have a good communication.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Wonderful. Do you have anything to say to help people that are perhaps learning this, perhaps what it doesn’t look like, if they’re off track, and maybe what it does look like when they are on track, having empathetic dialogue? Or maybe even a story that might illustrate that.
Bento Leal: They can learn pretty quickly if it starts to go off. When I do my classes, for example, we practice a little bit, maybe five minutes this person talks and the other person listens, and I bring a little chime and I say “Okay, switch roles. The other person now gets the chance to speak and now your turn…” We kind of have a way in class to create a rhythm where there’s an opportunity for self-reflection along the way.
When I’ve done multi-week classes, on other curricula that I teach – I’m doing a fatherhood class right now, for example, with the organization I work for; we have a federal grant for that… And that’s a 12-week course, two hours each night on a Thursday night; that’s just dads in the class. But I pair them up with each other and they practice dialogue the way they’re gonna take their dialogue to home, and they’ll come back and tell me each week… I’ll ask them, “Before we get into tonight’s topic, anybody have anything to share about this previous week about their practice of the skills?”, and different hands will go up and people will share… And they’ll talk about how it worked well, or they forgot to use it and it didn’t work well. I’m not sure if that’s answering your question; it may not be answering your question…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: No, I think it is, yes.
Bento Leal: Okay… But I see in a class sitting how it can kind of calibrate, and it’s kind of like tacking in the wind, if you’re — well, let’s say flying an airplane or if you’re on a sailboat, or you’re driving a car. Let’s use that, everybody’s driving a car; not everybody flies an airplane or does [unintelligible 00:46:52.18] on a sailboat. Most everybody drives a car. You’re driving a car and you wanna go from here to there, but there’s a slope on the road, there’s the wind blowing… You’re constantly moving your steering wheel, even though you’re trying to go in a straight line; you don’t keep your hands fixed, and then suddenly you’re in a ditch or into the median. You’re constantly navigating.
I think that metaphor works in dialogue – “Are we on track, are we not?” And I kind of keep that true North of the idea of being respectful no matter what; just get back to the respect mode… And you mentioned earlier the big picture – we love each other, we’re a couple, we’re a family, or we’re co-workers… Look at the positives that we have, and then use that to kind of stay back in the lane going forward, rather than go way over here or go way over there.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I like it. I like it, because it sounds as though even though you’re giving a real clear structure, you’re inviting for there to be self-awareness so they can feel the variability of all the things going on, and they can start to develop that inner compass, if you will.
Bento Leal: Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: But they then know what that feels like, rather than “Am I doing all the stuff, and am I fixed on what it is?”
Bento Leal: Yeah.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Wonderful. Well, great. There’s such a richness to what you’re offering… Is there anything you wanna underscore before we start transitioning out of this episode today?
Bento Leal: Well, to get back to mutual respect, I think that’s number one – to respect your value and the other person’s value; I think if you can consciously make the underlying point, and maybe in addition to that, as a complement to that, is to keep nurturing your relationship in a positive way. I go into some detail on that in my book, Nurture Your Relationship Garden. Nurture this particular relationship, that particular relationship; put in the good stuff, and talk well, appreciate, applaud, admire – whatever needs to happen to lift up that other person and lift up your relationship. Then you’re really building something, not just putting out fires. That’s what I think is really important.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that. Alright, Bento, how can people get in touch with you? I will also, again, put the link to your book on today’s show notes… How can people reach you?
Bento Leal: I’ve got my website, BentoLeal.com. They can go there, they click the button there and it takes them right to the book on Amazon. That’s one way to do it. And at the bottom there it tells how to reach me, and it’s got my email. My email is simply [email protected]. They can just do that.
People where you get the name Bento; it should have been Benito. Actually, Bento is a Portuguese version of Benito, but my wife is Japanese and Bento means “lunchbox” in Japanese, so… [laughter] [unintelligible 00:49:42.29] So it’s Bento, it just happens to be my name, and BentoLeal.com is where they can reach me. And get the book. You’re gonna get a lot out of the book. I’m happy to say that. I’m just not only promoting it, but I really think it could do people a lot of good.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Great. Thank you so much for your time today.
Bento Leal: Thank you, Jessica. It’s been a pleasure.
I hope you have enjoyed today’s episode. I really feel that Bento is giving us real practical, real tried and true tips and recommendations, and I love that he’s helping and being of service to so many people in the way of his classes and his book… And if you’re interested in his material, again, you can find that on today’s show notes. Again, you can find that on my website, DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast, and you can find today’s episode, 179, “Four keys to effective communication – an interview with Bento Leal.”
Until next time, I hope you take great care.
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