ERP 184: How to Deal With Sexual Incompatibilities, an Interview with Dr. Lonnie Barbach
Welcome to The Empowered Relationship Podcast, helping you turn relationship challenges into opportunities and setting you up for relationship success. Your host, Dr. Jessica Higgins, is a licensed psychologist and relationship coach who shares valuable tips, tools and resources for you to dramatically improve your relationship.
This podcast is 100% ad-free. To support this show, please subscribe and write a review today. Here is your host.
* * *
Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 184, “How to deal with sexual incompatibilities”, an interview with Dr. Lonnie Barbach. Before we get started in today’s conversation, I just want to really invite awareness to this collective interest; I’m so grateful that people continue to want to improve their relationship, be more conscious, more intentional, more mindful, and also feel more equipped to navigate long-term intimacy.
On this show we recognize that there can be a lot that can get evoked, or where we might get challenged, and that we’re looking at some of the topics that people typically find as hurdles, and getting some support around how to negotiate those challenges, so that you can feel more authentic, more aligned, and intentional about having the type of intimacy and the quality of that connection feel so fulfilling and so rewarding.
So I wanna thank you for your listenership and just your interest, because I do believe as we intend and really work towards this goal, we improve and grow ourselves individually. That development individually that also develops our relationship, that also has that ripple effect for the people in our lives, our family, our friends, our community, that we’re all served by this endeavor.
If you would like access to today’s show notes, you can visit my website, DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast and you can find all the episodes there. Today’s episode, again, is 184, “How to deal with sexual incompatibilities, with Dr. Lonnie Barbach.”
On the website DrJessicaHiggins.com you can find other resources – articles, programs and also how to learn more about getting support in the way of coaching. Again, you can find that at DrJessicaHiggins.com. Let’s get started in today’s episode.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach, a clinical-social psychologist, was co-director of clinical training at UCSF medical centers sexuality program and is currently in private practice. She has received numerous awards for her work on sexuality and has written a dozen books on relationship, sexuality and menopause. Her best-known books include: For Yourself, The Erotic Edge, The Pause and Going the Distance, co-authored with her partner, David Geisinger, Ph.D. She is also co-founder of Happy Couple, a relationship game app designed to enhance a couple’s communication and satisfaction.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Lonnie, thank you for joining us today.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Thank you, it’s good to be here.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, it’s a privilege to have you addressing this topic for listeners who have questions about navigating sexuality in their relationship or marriage. Before we get started, I would love to just orient people as they’re getting to know you, a little bit about your perspective and outlook. I know we could probably spend hours on this topic, but could you give us some sense?
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Well, I started working in sexuality about 45 years ago, with UCSF, as co-director of clinical training. I was in charge of the women’s program. And you know, I fell into it, so it’s not like it was my life’s mission. I was working with women who were not orgasmic, and I designed a treatment program and they were all orgasmic by the end of the five weeks, ten sessions… And I ended up writing For Yourself, as a self-help book, and then I ended up doing my dissertation on it. It was when the only program there was Masters and Johnson… So I became one of the original people in the field of sexuality.
Then after I spent a number of years working with sexual problems, I realized that so many of the sexual problems were really the result of relationship problems. So my focus then turned to dealing with relationship issues, which were actually much more complicated to deal with than were just some straight sexual difficulties… And that’s what has interested me ever since then.
I’ve worked with couples, I work with both of them in the room at the same time, and my work is really enabling couples to communicate with each other, so that they don’t need me there… Because an awful lots of therapists — you know, the couples do great when you’re in therapy, but as soon as they leave the room, the translator is not there to help them… So my goal is to enable couples to create a relationship that is safe and intimate, which means that they have to share their vulnerable feelings… So teaching couples, the differences between their thoughts and their feelings. Because even though they might say “I feel that you don’t care about me”, well that’s not really a feeling. “I think you don’t care about me.” That’s about the other person.
So it’s really being able to talk about your vulnerable feelings – “I feel hurt, I feel unimportant, I feel undesirable”, things like that. It has to be safe, so the partner has to be able to hear it, has to be able to validate it. If they don’t understand it, ask more questions, so they can understand why their partner feels that way… And not judge them, not deny their feelings. “Oh, you don’t feel that way”, or dismiss them, “Oh, you’re making such a big deal out of nothing.” All of those things will get in the way of feelings safe, and safety has a lot to do with feelings sexual.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Absolutely. You’re saying such important things right now that I just wanna underscore with you that really helping people dialogue in this more vulnerable way, and setting up that safe container, and then allowing them to really build that experience so that they can take it and be empowered and basically live it without your assistance.
And talking about sex, and surprisingly, it’s just so interesting to me; it continues to fascinate me how even being with someone for such a long period of time how vulnerable this is for people… So it sounds so great what you’re doing. I’m really curious, is there any nugget that you could offer about your early research and program around helping women be more orgasmic?
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Well, some of it had to do with women feeling okay about whatever stimulation they needed to reach orgasm… And so often, especially historically, women felt that the only stimulation that was right was vaginal stimulation; otherwise they weren’t really having orgasms. So they were not getting the kind of stimulation they needed, because they thought that stimulating the clitoris was not right, so they’ve avoided that; and of course, that’s the stimulation that the majority of women need… So they were not orgasmic.
So it was having women feel more empowered to talk about sexuality, to direct their partner, let their partner know what turns them on, show their partner… Things like that, that made a difference.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Absolutely.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Because women who were more assertive turned out to be more orgasmic.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice. And is that anything you talk about in one of your books?
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: For Yourself is really for women who would like to be able to experience orgasms on their own, like masturbation… Because a lot of women still feel that it’s not okay. And For Each Other was written to take what women knew about their bodies and to be able to bring that into their relationship. So that deals both with sexual desire for women who don’t feel desire, for women who are not orgasmic with a partner, and for women who experience intercourse as painful. So I wrote that as a self-help book for those issues.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Gotcha. Thank you, that’s super-helpful for listeners that are piquing their curiosity around what you’re describing and maybe we’re not gonna touch on a lot today, so just to direct people there. I’m just remembering, a couple years ago, Lonnie, I was in a social gathering with just women that all knew each other really well, and the topic evolved to sex, and a woman was sharing that she had never achieved orgasm, and somehow I was like “Huh… Have you ever masturbated?” and she was like “No…” And it was just funny to have that discussion emerge around what other women were saying, and just a lack of feeling that permission to, like you’re saying, have the experience with masturbation, or knowing their body and then being able to talk about that with their significant other… So thank you, I appreciate that.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Yes, and even to be able to talk about that with a group of women. It’s not a topic of general conversation… Except for me, when I go to places and people find out what I do; this is the first thing they do, is they talk about their sexual issues… And I think “What is going on here…?” It’s unique. It’s so personal to talk about your sexuality, and even with somebody that you’re the most intimate with.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Absolutely, absolutely. Pivoting towards relationship, it sounds like one of the things that you’re doing is helping people talk about what they’re wanting and what they’re feeling in more vulnerable ways… How do you see that being reflected in the bedroom?
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Well, if you can talk to your partner about what turns you on, and what you like, that is very vulnerable. Somebody can say “Ugh… You like that? What’s wrong with you?” or in some way put you down, so you’re really allowing your partner into some of your deepest personal areas. If you can talk about your sexuality, most couples can talk about other things more easily. It’s kind of the most private area, so it allows you to open up and talk about other things.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes… And in my experience, it feels as though sometimes if there’s resentment, or harboring of feelings and those aren’t clear, that it can impact one’s openness. That might even include openness to sexual connection… Do you find that?
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Yes, it can have a significant effect on desire. If you’re not talking about the things that are bothering you in the relationship and your feelings aren’t coming out, it’s not easy to just withhold some feelings. You end up withholding your sexual feelings as well. You don’t feel close to your partner, you don’t wanna be open in that way sexually. And in addition, there’s some relationships where one person really feels like they don’t have much power in the relationship. They don’t feel like they get their needs met. They’re not able to say what they want, or their partner isn’t respecting them… And sometimes the only power a person feels is a negative power in the relationship, and that is withholding.
So not feeling sexual, not desiring your partner is a very strong message that ends up with your partner feeling put down, and it’s very powerful. It’s just not helpful to have to be powerful that way and not be able to be powerful in a more direct way.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Which I think comes back to the safety that you’re really helping couples experience, so that they can be more direct and clear about this… Because I just can hear how if one is withholding, the other one possibly would be feeling rejected, and then the downward cycle of disconnect there.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Exactly.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: O another note, do you find that people perhaps have to be in a state of wondering, or even curiosity about their own sexual desires? That even when you ask that question around like “What turns you on?” I have one client that comes to mind, and her and her husband – she’s like “I know it feels good physically, physiologically, but I don’t have these fantasies, or I don’t have these really elaborate ideas, and I feel pressured.” So there’s the relational dynamic that we work on, and that I’m just curious — do you see that, where people just haven’t really been dropping into their body even? There’s a lot of women I guess I see that are maybe more assertive, and go-getters, and driving pretty hard throughout the day, and maybe aren’t in their body, and maybe can’t feel their desire. What do you see around this?
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Well, you’ve brought up a number of different issues…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I know…
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: One thing is that we’re as different sexually as we are in the clothes that we wear, in the food that we like… We are each unique sexual beings, and that means that if somebody has fantasies, elaborate fantasies, that’s how they are. Somebody has no fantasies, they tune into the physical feelings – that’s how they are. It’s not that one way is better than another, or that you should try to be an artist when you’re really a numbers person. You’re better off finding what you like, the style of love-making that turns you on, where your comfort is being sexual and what is most arousing to you, and to develop that, as opposed to trying to make yourself into a different being sexually.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that. Exploring what’s natural and what feels genuine, rather than trying to be something that doesn’t feel authentic.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: And that can be a problem with a couple where one person says “Why aren’t you this way? Why don’t you like this? There’s something wrong with you because you don’t.” There are ways that we are not well-suited to each other. We may have very, very different political views. So different that we can’t have conversations, really. They get in the way. Or very different religious views that make us feel like we’re not really comfortable or at home with someone. Or intellectually. And the same thing is true sexually. There are couples that are just not well-matched sexually. What turns one person on is really distasteful to the other.
So being able to both be satisfied is very difficult. Sometimes you can come to a place where both people — because you’re not gonna be exactly the same, but come to a place that feels cooperative, where both people have their needs met, where nobody is feeling really turned off, and you develop a style and a way that feels good to both people, that is satisfying. Some couples are not able to do that. They are just too far apart.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Now, do you think that’s a product of not being able to achieve that more win/win and what feels good, or do you think it’s just they’re so polar in their desires that it’s just really hard to find that common ground?
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Well, I would say that if they have tried to find common ground and experimented, and it still is just not working, then it doesn’t work for them. I had one couple – it was really interesting; they came in because they were worried about their sex life. The man really got turned on by being put into a trunk and having it closed, and the woman walking around and talking to him, and wearing high heels, and stuff. That was the prelude to their love-making. And they were worried that they might not be “normal.” And I said to her “How do you feel about this?” and she said “I’m fine with it.” And I said “Then it’s absolutely fine.” And the other thing I said to him is “Take very good care of her, because there may not be a lot of women who would feel that way.”
So it’s about finding someone where the two of you are just perfectly able to experiment or experience whatever is arousing to the other person. And there are other couples where something is just distasteful; it just is not something that they can feel turned on by.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Thank you for this. I wanna dig in a little bit more on this question, because I had a listener who had pretty much asked this question, “What do we do…? My partner is much more interested in…” what she was calling kinky sex, and she was describing her desires being more vanilla or traditional, in the sense of maybe not as experimental… So you’re speaking to — this could be an example or a situation where they’re really at odds, but it also could be a place that they could work together and really find places where it feels good to me.
With that, what do you suggest around — you’re saying trying, and I guess I’m interested in what you would recommend in the way of trying to find some of this area where it could feel good for both of them.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Well, it would be starting slowly, and she would have to be the one to pick the things that she might be willing to try out. So he would have to be willing to go at her speed. I always say “You can only go as fast as the slowest person in the relationship.” So she would be dictating the speed at which they would try some new things, and he can give her a whole bunch of assortment of things that he’d like to try, or that he’d be interested in, and she could say “Well, let’s try this one, and here’s the limit on it. I only wanna do it for — let’s start with five minutes. Let’s just try it. Or if I say this word, we’ll just stop.”
And then they see how it goes, and she sees how it feels, and she tries that a few times, and they talk about it, and they grow from that, or it’s just too negative for her. Maybe her religious background is such that she just can’t entertain some of these things. It just doesn’t fit for her.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah. As you’re talking, I’m thinking about what you were really referencing in the beginning, of just the importance of safety, so being able to go slow, being able to have a word that indicates “I’d like to stop”, or even putting some framework that helps it feel a little more approachable… And that really does speak to me of prioritizing the bond and the relationship, rather than maybe the erotic feelings, or the excitement, or the charge of like “Yes, yes, yes! Let’s move forward!” and maybe not being as attuned to their partner.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: You get into trouble if you try to push yourself somewhere that you’re really not. So if you try to go ahead and say “Yes, yes, I’ll just do that, because I wanna please you”, well it’s gonna backfire. It really will backfire if the person doesn’t enjoy it, and can’t enjoy it, and they don’t say anything about it and they keep enduring what ends up being a negative sexual experience.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, it could actually feel even a little traumatizing or intrusive, or crossing boundaries, even though maybe they participated in it by saying yes, but still didn’t feel good, and then ended up feeling like it crossed boundaries.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Right, which brings me to — you know, there are people (men and women) who have been molested in some way sexually while they were growing up, and there are certain sexual acts or ways of being sexually that trigger those early experiences, and make the sexual experience really negative. And if they can know that that’s what is happening and talk about it with their partner, then their partner can be more caring and careful to make sure that those are respected, and allow the other person to develop trust and not have to guard against it.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And how do people know that they’re getting triggered? I know a lot of people will know this because they’re very aware and they’ll have sensations in their body, or they’ll have a flashback, or they’ll have some type of flooded feeling, but is there things that you also suggest to be aware of?
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Those are the things. It’s like “Why am I so upset about this thing right now? I’m not normally upset about things in general. Why is this one affecting me so?” So it’s just that awareness that “This seems really out of proportion.”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: That’s a great one. That it seems much more amplified than I normally feel.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Right. The reaction is just extreme for the situation.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay. Great, so are there any other things that you–
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: And there’s something called EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing), and now there is a new technique that’s a part of that which is called the flash technique. For people who have been traumatized, sometimes even just bringing up the thought or the image or the memory of the incident is retraumatizing… And the flash technique allows you to be able to deal with it and desensitize yourself to it without actually having to remember the incident. It’s a new technique, probably a couple of years old.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I’ve referred people to EMDR all the time, but I haven’t really heard of the flash…
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: No, it’s pretty new, and it works really quickly and very effectively, and particularly with this group of really seriously traumatized people.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, yeah, and it’s so somatic. It just feels like the sexual intimacy is evoking the body, obviously, and so if there has been trauma with sexuality, this just seems paramount.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Yes.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay. And I’m curious — so if we go back to what you’re recommending, if couples or partners are at different places in their preferences and are trying to find a common ground, and you’re saying “Go slow, really do your best to create some safety parameters or agreements”, I guess I’m wondering if there’s anything else that you recommend… Because as I’m listening, as you’re mentioning, there are so many things that we’re exposed to around sexual messages, or images, and that if someone perhaps has had some negative messages – not necessarily trauma, but negative messages either about their body, or about sex… And I just wonder about the judgments that might be playing a part, conscious or not. Do you suggest anything around how to work with that?
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: I’m not sure whose judgments you’re talking about… The other person’s judgments or your own judgments?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, I just will say for myself – I think, gosh, I grew up in a family where my mother was pretty comfortable with her body, whereas my friend… We were just hiking the other day and she was like “Oh my gosh, I heard so much criticism that my mom had about her body, and just pleasure and sex was never talked about…” So I think what I’m thinking is just how we’re brought up, and how we frame sexuality based on family, our experiences maybe with peers or even media, and we tend to have a certain belief set.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: It’s even more complicated…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: [laughs] Probably.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: …because two people can have a similar upbringing and have totally different reactions to it. And then you could have people who were brought up with a really open — and I work with one woman, her mother was totally open and asked her questions about sex, gave her a vibrator, and it had an inhibiting effect on her. So it’s not a simple thing. The question is are you comfortable with where you are right now, with the knowledge that this is not necessarily where you’re gonna be for the rest of your life? That our sexuality evolves, our relationships evolve, everything in our life evolves and changes…
So you don’t have to make it different today, but are you interested in exploring it now? Are you not interested in exploring it right now because you want to get more comfortable with something else? Then consider it at a later date. You know, where are you with it? Maybe as your safety in your relationship gets stronger, you become more open to trying things that you might not have been before.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I like that, just being able to use what’s real, and your feeling, and discerning if it feels like there’s apprehension… Do I wanna explore this, or do I not feel comfortable? And letting that be okay.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Or do I need to slow it down, or do I need to put parameters around it, because I want to, but I’m afraid to, so I have to figure out a way to get from my fear into my want.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, I love that. Okay, so on a side note – I wasn’t thinking I was gonna even bring this up with you, but I have read several of David Schnarch’s books, and I actually think he’s got some wisdom for sure to offer… And he talks — I don’t know familiar you are, but he talks a lot about differentiation. In the example where we’re really prioritizing the safety of the bond, and perhaps going as slow as the person that needs to go slow needs to go, I’m just curious — I can hear that voice of like “Well, is there a space where the person that wants to maybe be more excited, that there could be a space for that partner to be more excited, but also still feel safe for the person that wants to go slow?”, if that makes sense. Do you understand my question?
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: You know, there’s a difference between enmeshment and having two independent people that can figure something out. Something might work for one person… For example, if one person wants sex more often than another person, which is a common issue; our desires are as unique as everything else. So somebody may be interested in sex three times today, and somebody else might be interested in sex once a week. There’s a [unintelligible 00:29:33.23] they find somebody with a more equal desire than their partner… Which reminds me of a couple I saw that came in with a desire issue. The desire issue was they said that she had a lack of desire – he felt that, and she felt that – and the reason was he wanted sex a few times a day, and she only wanted sex twice or three times a week.
So one would consider her certainly within the normal range, and him too, but it was the mismatch. But it wasn’t a lack of desire issue on her part. It wasn’t that as a problem. So that’s one thing that I was thinking about. I was trying to think about this other couple, if they had differences… So for that, maybe one partner would masturbate with their partner being there. So one person doesn’t have to have the same level of desire. Or they work out something else that is — it’s kind of understanding that we’re different people; let’s figure out how we can make this work.
It won’t be ideal, it won’t be exactly what the person who has the highest level of desire wants, but it won’t be what the person with the lowest level of desire wants either. And how can you create something where you both — not feeling like you’re the problem, but also not making the person feel like they’re the problem. This is just simply a difference that we have to figure out how to deal with, just like “How often do you feel like having Chinese food?” One person wants it once a month, the other person wants it once a week. You work out a way to deal with that.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And it sounds like it’s so much more easily workable when there isn’t a blame and shame cycle going on.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Exactly.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: So for the person that maybe is more highly aroused, or is more experimental, that their desire, their interest doesn’t have to be bad or wrong, but perhaps there’s something that they’re feeling a desire, like “I’d like to do that” or “I’d like to do this. What comes up for you around that? How would that feel for you?” and it sounds like there’s lots of opportunities; if there isn’t the blame and shame, then people can get pretty creative.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Right. Exactly.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Great. That’s super-helpful. I guess I’m wondering, at what point — because I think you’re able to facilitate people in discussion and dialogue around these things; maybe they might get stuck in their own lives… So at what point do you feel like somebody could seek support, or would benefit from getting some extra help around these areas?
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Well, are you talking about coming into therapy?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: If the couple has been going over and over the same issue, whether it’s in the bedroom, or out of bedroom, and it stays unresolved, so that it keeps coming up again and again, and there is bad feelings around it, and it’s leading to acrimony in the relationship, that’s the time that I think it’s really helpful to come in and have a third-party who’s an experienced couples’ therapist – because individual therapists aren’t necessarily good at working with couples issues… And to have somebody else, an outside person help them to talk about it in a different way, and help them to resolve it and understand what’s going on between the two people.
I was just thinking about a couple where one person is somebody who’s like spontaneity first. They don’t want plans. That’s where they’re comfortable. They just like to leave it open to whatever comes up. The other person really feels better when they have plans, and they like to have things set, and to plan ahead. So this couple has this unresolved problem because they keep coming up against it with each other, and then they keep blaming the other person for why they’re not comfortable. So “I’m not comfortable…!” “You’re hemming me in! I can’t do what I wanna do. This is programmed. Why are you so programmed?!” And the other person says “My goodness, we don’t get to do some of the things that I think are really important because you never wanna plan.” So you end up blaming each other about it. If you were able to understand that “Oh, that’s how we approach things…”, it’s different.
So how can we accept that these are differences, understand each other, and then find ways that — you know, some things will be planned, that are most important, and some things are gonna be spontaneous. Each one is a little uncomfortable some of the time.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah. And again, I just am still sitting with what you’ve been talking about, of using what’s real and letting that be okay, because if our partner is initiating something that feels outside of our comfort zone, we may just by habit say “No, I don’t do that”, but then if there’s a real checking in and a real feeling, there might be more “Well, maybe it’s not a total no.” It could be “I’m open to this”, or just being able to tune in and really access what feels genuine. Or “I’d be willing to go slow”, and again, to be able to have the conversation.
I think so many people don’t necessarily know what this looks like, or that it’s okay to have this level of explicit details around sex. It’s just supposed to happen, you know what I mean? Like “Talking about it is unromantic”, or something…
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: That’s really true. It’s sort of the idea that sex should just be somehow spontaneous. And actually, a number of couples that I’ve seen of late have been couples in their later years, in their seventies or even in their eighties, who for the first time are having problem sexually, because you know, we change in terms of our sexuality as we age, or a lot of people do… And because they never had any problems when they were younger, they never had to talk about it. And they didn’t develop a comfort with it or any skill in talking about it, and suddenly, they find themselves with these issues. They can’t talk about it, they’re just not having sex, and they don’t really understand how this has happened, or how to deal with it.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. Such a good example. Just never having had to do it, and just being confronted with it, and how it can be such a new thing.
Lonnie, I would love to go back — you were talking about the desire… I had another listener pose the question around “I don’t feel that attraction…” I don’t know that it had to do with frequency; I think the way she was describing it had more to do with just desire for her significant other, and she was really concerned… I hear this when people are dating, it’s like “Oh, you know, the stars align, and the heavens open, and my whole body is alive and electric”, and then some other connection feels much more grounded, and maybe slow-building… But the way she was talking, she was questioning “Is this fixable?” So I’m wondering – I think you’re speaking to how you work with people, but I’m wondering if you have anything to say anything to this listener…?
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: I need to know a lot more about the situation, because if there was never any attraction ever, sometimes it’s very hard to create that. I’ve seen couples where they were really good friends, and they knew the other person would be a good parent, and they had a stable relationship and they trusted each other, but maybe one person just never felt any desire or any turn-on. That’s a really tough one, when it hasn’t been there at any level. You may not have it in the beginning, but within the first year or six months or so, if you deepen your emotional relationship… For some people the sexual relationship also can evolve, and the attraction may not have been there in the very beginning, but it starts to be there, and a satisfying sexual relationship results because they’re similar in their sexual styles, they feel good sexually, they feel connected, and they have a good relationship. So it can evolve. But once I’ve seen they’ve been together for a couple of years and one of them never felt attracted to the other or turned on by the other, it can be a very difficult, if not impossible thing to create.
Now, a lot of times it’s because there are other issues that are in the way. They did feel desire in the beginning, but maybe it was very short order, because other kinds of relationship issues got in the way that they haven’t resolved… So if there was once that attraction in any way in the beginning, that’s the spark that you can build on.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice. And possibly even, as we were saying earlier, if we’re in this pattern of holding, or having resentments that we haven’t cleared, that can often impact desire.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Absolutely. It’s the most common reason that couples lose desire over time in their relationship… Other that they’re exhausted because they’ve had little kids.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right?! The stress…
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: The stress. And that’s a normal thing for relationships. What needs to be done is that after those months – or maybe even a couple of years, if it’s little kids one after the other – that the couple really prioritizes their intimate and sexual relationship. That they have to go back to really making sure that they’re dating, that they’re setting aside to be sexual, to plan for it, because their lives are so busy and they don’t have any time for it to just happen spontaneously… And that can lead them back to what was once a good sexual relationship, and can create it again.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that. Such a good recommendation and invitation… After that initial intensive period of taking care of a little baby, to be able to reallocate some of that time and energy towards the sexual relationship.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: And some people say “Well, it has to be spontaneous. It’s not good if it’s not spontaneous.” And I say “Look in your appointment book.” Dinner with your parents, dinner with your boss, a PTA meeting… All these other things, and there’s no time left over because you go to bed, it’s late, you’ve paid your bills, and… You know, you call the other things spontaneous. It’s not spontaneous. Even when you were dating, you planned the date, you talked on the phone, you got dressed up for it, maybe even took a shower, you looked forward to it… And then that they call spontaneous.
So if you could just take that spontaneity and bring it into your relationship, where you have that kind of planning and talking, that’s really what a good sexual relationship is based on.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: So great… Thank you for that. And just lastly, I am still thinking about some listeners that are like “Oh, I just want a little more…”, if you can talk about any solutions or any — and I know it’s so couple-dependent, so it might not even be that relevant, but if there’s anything that you can share around what some of these win/wins could look like, if for example the frequency of sex is so different, or something around that line.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Well, as I mentioned, one person masturbates with the other one there, and that one person doesn’t have to be as involved as the other person… So you can do that. A lot of times one person is a morning person, the other person is a night person, so coming up with a time of day where both people feel like they have some energy, and create their calendars around that… Those are the two that come to mind first.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay. That’s perfect. I think what you’ve been guiding people to is really what it sounds like the invitation is, because so much creativity and so much unique expression is gonna come from really getting into that safe conversation, and being connected around what the desire is, and then how do we get to a win/win… That there’s a lot more, and if we can have those conversations that could emerge, with that wondering and that curiosity and the non-blame.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Right.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Awesome. Alright. Well, I would love for people to learn how they can get in touch with you and Happy Couple. If you wanna share a little bit about Happy Couple, and the app…
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Yeah, that’s an app that I’ve been working on for the last four years. It’s been out for about two years… And I was going to write another book on a lot of the communication step, and tips for relationships. I was thinking of something that might only be three pages long per chapter… And then these lovely to men from France came up to me and said “Would you be our psychologist for a game app to give couples a way where they could get information and get to know each other, but it would be fun?” So I thought “Okay, I’ve written a bunch of self-help books… This is really interesting to me. So how can I take some of these tips and move them from three pages into a screen?” and how can couples get a tip a day and then get six questions? Like the newly-wed game; I don’t know if you know that game, where you ask each other a question and they both have to see what their partner would answer, how they would answer that question…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: So fun!
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: And if you guess right, you get a point. But it doesn’t matter if you guess right or you guess wrong, because if you guess wrong, that requires you to have conversations like “How come you answered that that way? I didn’t know that when you were sick that you like to babied… Oh, my goodness!” And it allows couples to talk about things. There’s a lot of sexual questions, so it allows them to open up a conversation on something that might be sort of embarrassing for them to open up on their own. And 80% of the couples playing the game said that they felt their relationship was better as a result of playing Happy Couple, because they had these conversations and they knew each other better, and it enabled them to feel safe, because we were the ones asking all the questions…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: And then we were providing the answers, and they could fill in their own answer if none of ours was applicable. But it gave them a forum in which to start talking about things, and a tip a day, that enabled them to think “Oh, my goodness… Yeah, I was angry with my partner. Hm… It might help if I told him that I was feeling really unimportant, as opposed to just lambasting him for not calling me and coming home late.”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Is it one device that they both use, or do they have two devices?
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: No, you play it on your phone. It’s an app. You each play on your own phone, you don’t have to do it together. You can answer the questions any time – standing in line at the grocery store, when you’re riding the bus, or whatever… And then when the other person answers those questions, the same questions that you’ve answered, then they sync up.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Oh…!
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: And you can skip a question if you think that it’s too embarrassing, or you don’t wanna talk about that… We’ve made it possible so that both people weren’t getting the same questions on the same day.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: After that you kind of lose track and forget, “Oh, I wonder what they were asking, that question that they never answered to me.” So it gives people privacy, it gives them the ability to skip questions… And then lots of areas – in communication, on responsibilities, about handling money, about things with the children… And the app actually gives you questions according to whether or not you have children, if you’re married or engaged, or living together, or dating, how long you’ve known each other, whether you’re in a straight relationship or in a gay relationship… We’ve tried to make it available for any couple.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that it’s so customizable. That’s perfect.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Yeah, with questions that fit for them.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And I think it’s so fun that perhaps–
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: And it’s free!
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay, great!
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Anybody can download it. It’s on all the app stores.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Oh, great. I looked, and I saw it on the app store on Apple, and I wasn’t sure… So that’s great to know, for people who have a different device. Great!
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: Yeah, it’s called Happy Couple, not Appy Couple… And it has two pink birds on it.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Great. Well, I will make sure that’s on today’s show notes, as well as the books you’ve written, and your website. Do you have anything else you wanna direct people towards?
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: No, I think we’ve pretty well covered it.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Excellent.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: I obviously have one book on menopause, but that hasn’t been really relevant except for the fact that sexuality can change, along with the changing hormones…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I will make sure to include that.
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: A lot of things can change in our sexuality. We were talking about desire and the impact of relationship issues, but also there can be a death in the family, or some kind of a trauma… As I said, young children… There are many things that can affect someone’s level of desire.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right, and the hormones…
Dr. Lonnie Barbach: It can change over years, and understanding that, and both accepting it and working with it are important. So you may understand that your sexual desire gets less when you have kids, but that doesn’t mean that you just don’t do anything about it. Or after an illness. If somebody has been really ill, the couple is not having sex more than likely during that time. Then you have to reestablish it afterwards, and it can be awkward to start something that has not been happening for a period of time.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, thank you. That’s a lot more to think about for people that may be experiencing those things… And I, again, will make sure to have all of these links on today’s show notes.
Thank you so much for spending this time with us, and helping us build awareness around this very important topic. Again, we just so appreciate it.
I hope you have enjoyed today’s episode with Dr. Lonnie Barbach, as she covers quite a bit of ground, looking at where we can get stuck in relationship, and feeling as though we are having incompatibility issues as it relates to intimacy and sexuality. If you’re interested in today’s show notes, again, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast, and you can find all the episodes there. Again, episode 184, “How to deal with sexual incompatibilities”, an interview with Dr. Lonnie Barbach.
If you have a question that you would like to submit, or perhaps you wanna receive a live, laser coaching, you can find all the ways to submit your question, or apply to be on the show – you can find that on the Contact page. Again, DrJessicaHiggins.com.
Until next time, I hope you take great care.
* * *
You’ve been listening to Empowered Relationship, your relationship guide. Remember to take a moment to write a review and subscribe today. You can also get your free relationship gift by visiting DrJessicaHiggins.com.
0 Comments