ERP 188: The Benefits of Having a Tough Conversation, an Interview with David Wood
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Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 188, “The benefits of having a tough conversation”, an interview with David Wood. Before we get started, if you will, take a moment and just pause; perhaps taking a deep breath in, and a deep breath out… Just acknowledging your interest in improving the quality of your relationship, and your effort, your intention and your love that you bring to your relationship contemplating these topics, and yourself. Because as we explore these topics, we’re essentially growing ourselves. We’re evolving our understanding and our skill, as well as improving, again, the quality of our connection.
The intention of the Empowered Relationship Podcast is for you to feel better equipped, more prepared in cultivating with your significant other a long-lasting, deeply profound relationship. For today’s show notes you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast and find all the episodes there. Again, today’s episode is 188, “The benefits of having a tough conversation”, an interview with David Wood. You’ll also find other resources, articles and podcasts there on that website as well. Let’s get started in today’s episode.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: After life as a consulting actuary to Fortune 100 companies, David built one of the largest coaching businesses. David Wood believes the tough conversations we avoid are our doorways to confidence, success, and even love, in both work and life. David coaches high-performing entrepreneurs, executives and teams, even prison inmates, to amazing results and connection, one conversation at a time. David, thank you for joining us today!
David Wood: A pleasure, Jessica. I’ve enjoyed meeting you already.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, it’s nice to have you and I’m really excited to be supporting listeners on the topic of tough conversations. This is something you work in many different sectors… So can you can give us some context of what you consider to be a tough conversation?
David Wood: A tough conversation is the one you don’t wanna have. I was raised in an Australian town, by Australian working-class parents, and I wasn’t taught to talk about awkward things. We just swept it under the carpet, didn’t talk about it. My little sister died when I was seven years old and we didn’t talk about it, because we weren’t trained to handle difficult conversations. And fortunately, at the age of 27 I discovered personal growth and coaching, and almost every time I’ve had a tough conversation I feel good about myself, because I stood up and I spoke, and I expressed myself… And then often the relationship will shift and change, and we get more connected because we’re talking about something real. And then sometimes I actually get what I’m looking for, that might be resolved; I wanna change someone’s behavior, I wanna — who knows what it is.
So there’s a lot of profit, I’ve found, to having a tough conversation… And it’s scary. That’s why we call it tough. There’s something in it for us that we’re afraid of or scared of, and my job is to help people look at the profit, look at what the scary bit is and what you might lose – because usually, you could lose something – and then what’s the gain that could come from it. In my experience, there’s profit. usually, the gain is greater than the potential risk.
I’m an evangelist for it, I want everybody to identify their tough conversations, because that’s really often the hard part. We don’t even know what they are. And then once we know what they are, let’s stop avoiding them and lean into them, and have them with some skill, so that we could transform the world.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: It’s so powerful. You’re saying so many great things… I just wanna underscore, if I may…
David Wood: Yeah.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: It sounds like you’re kind of on the other side of having taken these risks, and have the courage to face these conversations, but also to have experienced the benefits so much so that you are really confident in the process. It probably doesn’t maybe take away the discomfort when you know you have a difficult conversation you need to have, or a tough conversation you need to have, but that kind of focusing your mind on the long-term benefit helps you tolerate some of that short-term discomfort. Is that right?
David Wood: Well, I would agree… But initially, if it sees the conversation, the mind says “Oh, don’t do that. That’s not a good idea.” But often, the mind will just hide the conversation from you anyway, and just say “Oh, she’s being a bitch” or “He’s just like that”, and it doesn’t even occur to the mind that that could be a conversation that could go well.
I run people through a four-step process, and one of those steps in the four steps is to create a hope for the conversation. That’s where you look at what would be a great outcome. This is what’s gonna drive you forward and have you actually wanna do it. Plus, when you tell the other person “This is my hope out of this conversation”, now you can come together and you’re on the same page; at least they now understand why you’re bringing up this awkward thing.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: David, that’s so, so key, to really have that intention named… Because most people – I would agree with you – either avoid or are scared of these types of conversations… So when somebody has a lot of emotion or energy around a topic and they’re confronting it, most people are like “Oh, you’re just wanting to blast me or criticize me.”
David Wood: Right!
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And so to have intention that’s positive – they can pivot towards that.
David Wood: Yeah, that’s the default. If someone comes to me with — I’m just realizing right now, I’ve got a lot of hot buttons, and I’m insecure in a number of areas, and I’m secure in others… But if someone comes to me, my mind is so quick to perceive it as criticism, or I did something wrong, or I’m in trouble. So the first step is to get permission for the conversation. “Hey, can we talk about something?” And then sharing the hope is a great way to get that permission. “My hope is that we’ll feel closer after this conversation” or “My hope is that our relationship will go a little smoother.” Or “My hope is that this will be beneficial for our kids. This will be a good conversation for our kids”, whatever it is. And then you can get more interested in having it, and the other person can get more interested… And then it’s easier for me to hear something that might sound like criticism, if I think that the reason we’re having this is gonna benefit me, it’s gonna benefit us.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. Well, I know that you have some really powerful tips around how to navigate these conversations. But before we do that, you’re also identifying that it is so common to wanna avoid or not even recognize the opportunity for these conversations… So can we spend a little time for you to help people who are listening, that may not even be noticing the opportunity, or that they avoid. What does that look like?
David Wood: Yeah, great. Well, maybe some examples would help.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Perfect.
David Wood: One thing that’s awkward is when you get a no. What if you really want something in a relationship – you wanna go somewhere on vacation and your partner is like “No.” Or you really want new furniture, and you just feel like your partner is never gonna be “Yes.” That’s one simple example. What happens when your partner is a no, or you’re assuming it? “I want more sex” is a tough conversation. “I want something specific, sexually.” That can be very scary to ask for. What about “I don’t want more sex” or “I want less sex.” “I’m worried I’m not enough.” “I want you to change something about your behavior. Something you’re doing is bugging me.” And then how about “I have a confession” or “I’ve broken an agreement.”
When I was 18 and I had my first serious relationship, I got drunk one night and cheated on my partner. And the next day I told her what happened, and boy, that was a tough conversation. Now, I know there are a lot of people, maybe some listening to this podcast, who might have broken an agreement, or have something that could be a potential confession, and they haven’t had that conversation and they’re carrying it around… And I know that can be a very heavy weight.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes… Yes. So there are some major drawbacks to avoiding these conversations. Can you speak more about that?
David Wood: Yeah, a big cost… Say I have a desire and I don’t express it; I’m gonna carry that around. If I’m carrying around something I feel guilty about… You know, once I did something to someone that didn’t seem like a big deal at the time, but later on I realized could have had a really big impact. It could have really hurt that person, and I was scared to confront it because I could have gotten in a lot of trouble… And I carried it for 20 years. And then finally, I tracked down the person after 20 years of no communication and I said “Hey, here’s something I did way back, and if I hurt you at all, I’m really sorry.” And the person could have made my life really difficult, and they just said – “You know what, it’s no big deal. I don’t’ even remember. It’s really nothing.” And that was such a weight off me.
When I told my girlfriend that I cheated, she broke up with me. But had I carried that around – I can’t’ even give you a frame of reference for it; I can’t even imagine it. Well, except for that other thing that I carried for 20 years. It’s just horrible. I don’t want anything hanging over my head, that could bite me one day. That’s how I live. And so I invite people – not like you’re gonna go on like all your confessions overnight and you’re gonna risk prison if you committed a crime; you really need to work out if the gain from having the tough conversation could outweigh… But I think we underestimate how it can hurt us to carry around something and to not be expressed.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, you’re talking about a level of authenticity in living, because I think what I intend to see with a habitual, chronic pattern of hiding is there’s — this person doesn’t even really know me. There’s withholding, and I don’t feel safe to bring what’s really real or genuine, so it really limits the level of intimacy. Or if I want something and I feel like I can’t ask, it’s easy to be resentful. Or maybe I have this deep, dark thing that feels so unlovable, and if I share it, then what’s gonna happen…? But if I actually share it and I feel lovable, then it allows – like you’re saying – this full experience of feeling loved, because I’m not holding a big part of myself and carrying that weight that I’ve deemed unlovable… Because then I get to be right.
David Wood: That’s exactly true. And I’d go even further, to say that if we don’t reveal to someone the things that we don’t like or that we’re embarrassed about ourselves, we cannot experience real love. We can never experience it, because we know that all they can love is our front, and part of us. So when I share something with someone and I’m worried about being judged and I take a risk, a big risk, and I find that they love me anyway, then I experience that as real love. And I got that concept 20 years ago, reading the book “Real Love” by Greg Baer. And I didn’t know about the concept before, but it made sense – if you wanna feel loved, you have to show them who you are. And that’s scary, and it’s a risk. They might judge you; they might pull away from you, they might break up with you. They might divorce you. But I would rather that happen, than to wonder if they can really love and accept the real me.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, so well said. Because in some ways, we’re rejecting ourselves before they even have a chance to reject us, right?
David Wood: Yeah. And I have compassion for that, I can understand that. It’s a scary process, to start peeling back the layers and revealing yourself to those that you’re willing to trust with it. I’ve gotten more and more outspoken, and I share more and more with people, and now I share on podcasts and in the media more and more about myself, but it’s taken years to accept those parts, or to at least accept that I don’t accept those parts.
I just had a date last night. It was a blind date someone set me up with, and I was really scared about showing up because I was so tired. My heard hurt, and I’ve had a health issue; for 10-12 years I’ve had chronic fatigue, and I was nervous to share that with her, and let her know. That was a tough conversation. But I thought I want to be relational, and I want her to know who she’s dealing with and what she’s dealing with, and if she decides she doesn’t wanna see me again because of that, then that’ll hurt, but that’s probably what should happen.
I did share it, and I felt like we were really connected, and I had a great time, and my head got better, and we’re planning to have another date.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Just the courage in that… It’s so touching that you’re walking the talk, and that even as much commitment and conviction you have about having these tough conversations; the humanity of the vulnerability of what exists when we’re in it – it doesn’t take that away. You’re still leaning in and you’re still saying yes to having these conversations.
David Wood: Yeah. What’s changed is the bar has shifted. For example, if you start exercising and you find that a 40-minute jog is a lot for your body – that might stay for some time as being what’s hard for your body. But if you keep stretching and you work up to 45 minutes and 50, and then you’re pushing yourself for an hour, now all of a sudden a 40-minute jog is easy. So there are some things that used to be terrifying, but now are easier for me, because I’ve had a lot more practice, and I don’t have as much charge on them… But I’m still finding areas and edges… I mean, just yesterday I realized — I’d had a client on a big discount for a year, and I feel like it’s time to raise the fees. That’s a tough conversation for me. It was awkward. Money is a little bit awkward. So I told the client today “This is awkward for me to talk about money, and I wanna talk about it, because…” and then I shared the hope. “My hope is that we’ll find a number that we both feel empowered by”, which is something that anyone can get behind.
So I definitely do find my edges, and I have scary conversations… But as we practice it, if you’re willing to practice more and more, taking a risk with your partner, then some of those conversations get a lot easier and less scary.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. Well, I wanna even go back before we go forward, because you were saying that you grew up in a family where this wasn’t modeled. How did you recognize the importance of this, or get even awakened to the possibility of this, and start to take this as part of your practice?
David Wood: Well, it was an accident. It was a total accident. It wasn’t like I woke up one day, or got struck by lightning and realized “Oh wait, there are all these hidden tough conversations around me and I’m not having them.” I had no idea. What happened was my marriage wasn’t going well, and I was complaining about my wife to somebody, and she mentioned a personal growth course called The Landmark Forum. And she was saying that my wife should do it. I thought “That’s a great idea. Let’s change my wife.”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: [laughs] Right.
David Wood: I was all for that. But the more she spoke about the course, the more I thought “Well, I’ve never really done anything like that, and I think I could use finding out more about who I am, and learning some tools”, so I went and I did it. And the first one got me interested. They said “Once you’ve done this, you’ll go back to work and people will ask you if you’ve had a haircut, because something will be different about you, but they won’t know what it is.” And I swear, the first day back, some guy at work was like “Did you have a haircut?” I was like, “Alright, something is happening here…”
Then I went and did a second course, and I said “That’s all. I’m not doing any more.” And they cracked my cynicism open. They were constantly pushing in these courses to have conversations, to clean things up. So you’re constantly looking back through your life and finding resentments that you have, finding areas where you’re not expressed, finding where you wronged someone, and haven’t apologized, and then they give you coaching and support to go and have those conversations. And some of them were just horrendous in terms of the fear level.
One of them was — there was a bully at school that I always felt intimidated by. He’d always one-upped me, and I kind of wished we were friends, but I felt small… And I resented him for 20 years. And with the encouragement of a coach, I called that guy after 20 years of no communication, and said “I’m really worried you’re gonna think I’m a dickhead.” And that’s actually now one of the steps I teach in the four steps – you share a fear that you have. And that gave me access to calling him… Because I was really worried he was gonna think I was a dickhead. I had the conversation, and that’s just one example.
Another example was with the encouragement I called my mother, and at the age of 27 – I feel tight in my belly just reliving the conversation… At the age of 27 I said “I wanna tell you something I’ve never told you before. I love you.” And that was terrifying to me, because we didn’t say it in our family. I didn’t remember ever hearing it, I’d never said it, and I was so scared and vulnerable saying it.
I forget how we got on this topic, but… Oh yeah, you asked me did I have an insight – well, I did a course and they encouraged me to go and have a lot of tough conversations, and I found the value by doing it, and I got hooked. I was like “Wow, it’s such freedom, it’s such power, and such deep connection available in these conversations I’ve been avoiding…” So I’m grateful that they helped to give me the skills, that I could have them, and now I wanna pass them on to other people.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes… And I hope your mother was able to hear that, and respond to you… But even if she didn’t, it sounds like what your courage to have these conversations has allowed you — like, you’re a different person…
David Wood: That’s it. That’s it. See, the mind gets attached to the outcome. And I understand this, and that’s fine. My mind does, too. It thinks “If I’m gonna have a tough conversation, I’ve got to have this result.” But I’ve found that the real benefit is how good it feels, and how much I like myself more by speaking up, and being expressed. So you’re right, there was a cost and a risk in sharing that with my mother. I don’t really know what the risk would be. She might just say “Hm” and hang up. Or she might say “I don’t’ love you.” I don’t really know what I was risking, I just know it was terrifying… But it’s true, there’s the growth in me, and now I’m more powerful as a human.
Now, as it happened, I think it transformed my family. And my mother – I don’t think she said “I love you too” in that call, but two weeks later I called her and I brought up some topic, and she said “Ugh, I wish you’d stop turning over these stones…”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: [laughs]
David Wood: I said “What do you mean?” She said “Well, after you called and said you loved me”, I got thinking and I realized I’ve never said that to my mother. And so last week I drove the five hours to see her and stay with her for a few days, and I decided I — you know, she’s old. I don’t know how long she’s gonna be around. I have to tell her.” And she put it off the whole five days, and actually said goodbye, walked down the driveway, got in the car, turned on the engine, and then a voice said “You may never get to do it if you don’t do it now.” So she turned off the engine, walked up the driveway and said “There’s something I forgot to tell you. I love you.” And my grandmother died three months later.
So I realized that — I thought I was changing my world, but us being willing to lean in to have tough conversations with vulnerability transforms the world around us, because we’re modeling good behavior, and now we’re creating permission and safety for the other person to have that tough conversation that they didn’t think they could have.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes… So important. Yes, and as many listeners have families of their origin, and also children that they’re parenting – the ripple effect of this is huge.
David Wood: Yeah. What you can do for your kids… What you’re already doing – thank you for wherever you’re being authentic and you’re being vulnerable, and you’re talking about the things that are hard to talk about. Thank you. Because you’re showing your kids a way to do it. And where you’re still limited – and we all are, we’ve all got our boundaries – if you’re willing to be more vulnerable… And I’ll tell you where you can download the four-step blueprint for tough conversations, so you don’t have to go in this alone or solo and totally scared. There’s a worksheet as well you can fill in before you do it, which will definitely help you.
Every time you do that with your kids, you’re showing them what’s possible, and they’re gonna grow up as different people. It’s a peeve of mine, and I’m not a parent – I’ll say that upfront… It’s a peeve of mine when I see parents avoiding topics. They’re like “Oh, my child is not ready for that topic.” Well, it might be true. It might just also be that by trying to shelter them from topics they’re gonna hear about at school anyway, that you just miss that opportunity to have transparency and have connection. And I’m like “Are you kidding? That’d be an amazing topic to talk about with your kid, to see what their mind makes of it.”
I know one parent — I got to stay with her, and I think she’s a wonderful mother… Her kid is six, and she does not wanna talk about sex with her kid, and doesn’t wanna talk about the opposite sex, and is hoping her kid won’t notice the opposite sex. But her kid’s doing inappropriate things at school with other kids because no one’s talked about it, and talked about what boundaries might look like.
So I’m like “Please, let’s get these skills and let’s go into those awkward areas. You can get coaching first, and you can get advice first, and you might even get help…” I just hate to see anybody avoiding a conversation because it’s too scary, or awkward.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. And to add to that, in families where perhaps two parents are avoiding conversations to not rock the boat or cause more stress – but the children are feeling the stress anyway, so why not have these conversations and show them what it looks like, when it can be more effective and successful and transformational…
David Wood: That’s right. Like hiding fighting, when you’re angry. If you hide that, the kid’s picking up on it, and the kid just knows something’s off, and maybe they make up a story that it’s about them.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Exactly.
David Wood: Hey, maybe it is about them at that moment. Again, I’m not a parent, but I was a kid, and I’ve had parents; I’ve got parents. I’m not a parenting expert, I’m a communications expert, and I say – if you can find a way to name that… “You know what, mommy’s feeling angry right now. And it’s not your fault. That’s what’s happening. I might go and beat a pillow or do something to just express this anger, rather than trying to hide it or pretend it doesn’t exist.”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love it. Well, before we lose too much time with you – I know you’re gonna give people access to this blueprint, but for people that are listening and are really interested in knowing, can you break that down for us?
David Wood: Yeah, for sure. Firstly, the worksheet will make it easier. So if you do download the worksheet, you’ll just be prepared. But whether or not you do the worksheet, the four steps to having a tough conversation are 1) get permission. You wanna let them know that — I just wrote to someone and said “Are you up for a potentially awkward, and yet interesting conversation?”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Clever. I like it.
David Wood: Thank you. So you kind of let them know that something’s coming, and they can prepare themselves. The next step – this will help you get permission. You can flow right into the next step. “My hope is that out of this conversation…”, and then you share your hope that you came up with in the worksheet. “My hope is that this will make me a better parent.” Or “My hope is that you’ll understand my position and that you’ll like me more”, and so on. You work out what you hope would come out of this conversation. And you also share one fear.
So step two is share one hope and one fear. “I’m worried that you won’t understand my position” or “I’m worried that you might get defensive and not hear me out. I’m worried that you’ll break up with me. I’m worried that you’ll judge me and think that I’m less of a mother if I tell you this.” This gives you a chance to be relational, and this is where the vulnerability comes in as well. “This is my hope/This is my fear.” Now, there’s definitely a fear or a concern, or this wouldn’t be a tough conversation.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice. Yes.
David Wood: And also, sometimes I’ve done this without sharing the fear. It just helped me to get clear why I’m worried, why I’m hesitating. Like “What am I worried about losing here? Alright, I’m willing to face that, and then I might not even tell them the fear.”
The third step – you share the issues. What’s up, what is it? And if you can find a request, this is where you would also share that, too. “This is my issue. I’ve been feeling disconnected in our relationship, and I feel like I want more touch with you, to feel more connected. And my request is I would ask could we have a 30-minute date three times a week, where we exchange touch and just see where it goes? It could be a foot rub, it could be stroking the back, or I don’t know… That’d be one suggestion.” So you share what’s up and you make a request, if you can find one. That really helps, to make a request.
Then the fourth step – you thank them (“Thank you for listening”) and you get curious about their world. We want tough conversations, not tough monologues. So this is where you find out — here’s a great line, that works great in relationship… “How is it to hear that? I wanna know what’s your world now. What do you think about it? Do you have a better idea?” So you get curious and yo listen. Those are the four steps.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love it. And even possibly another suggestion could be that perhaps if a couple is challenged with a topic and they’re both feeling tense about it, to both do the worksheets. So in the fourth step, whoever initiates says “Thank you. What’s it like for you? How is this to hear?” and they’ll have their worksheet. “Well, as a matter of fact…” and then they have their possible breakdown of their experience and how to package it in a way that really sets this up for success.
David Wood: I love what you just did with that. So yeah, I’ve been talking mainly about when you’ve got some charge and you wanna bring that to somebody. What you’ve just done is opened it up to if you both have some charge – then yes, both do the worksheet. And then — you know, maybe in a future episode we’ll talk about when you’re dealing with someone who has a lot of charge, and they’re coming at you with some anger or upset, how you ground and handle that. But I think in this podcast we’ve now covered the two main areas – I’ve got something that I wanna bring to someone, and we’ve both got something.
I’m excited, I want people to try this out now. I want people to try this out and send you emails about how it went with them both filling in the worksheet and both following the process.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Super-exciting.
David Wood: Woo-hoo!
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah…! I love how you’ve given people this distillation of some really clear direction, and how passionate you are about the benefits and the result of having these tough conversations.
David Wood: Thank you.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And how can people get in touch with what you’re doing, learn more about what you’re offering, and how to get in touch with you?
David Wood: Yeah, thank you. So you can download the four-step blueprint to a tough conversation at playforreal.life. Included in that is the worksheet, so you get the worksheet and the blueprint at the same time. I’d love you to join my podcast too, and listen to me as well as Jessica, if you like tough conversations and you’re interested in mastering them… A lot of it will be about the corporate world and the business world, and also prison inmates… So I cover the whole gamut of tough conversations and how to connect through that.
If you want help with your relationship, either just for you, or with you and your partner, then please request a discovery session with me. You can do that at the website.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Wonderful. I’ll make sure to have those links on today’s show notes. David, thank you for sharing your time, your energy and your passion with us today.
David Wood: You’re so welcome, and I’m glad to know you. Thank you, Jessica.
I hope you have enjoyed today’s episode. Again, today’s episode is 188, “The benefits of having a tough conversation”, an interview with David Wood. I personally have enjoyed his passion and his vulnerability and his transparency as he’s describing the benefits of having these tough conversations. If you would like access to today’s show notes, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast and you can find all the episodes there.
If you have a relationship topic that you wanna hear an episode on, or perhaps you wanna apply to be on the show and receive live, laser coaching, you can learn more on the Contact page. Again, that’s the website DrJessicaHiggins.com.
Until next time, I hope you take great care.
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