ERP 189: How to Shift Out of Chaos in Relationship, an Interview With Dr. Laura Louis
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Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 190, “How to shift out of chaos in relationship”, an interview with Dr. Laura Louis.
Before we get started, I wanna take a moment and just acknowledge with you that as we listen to these episodes, we are improving our capacity to show up in relationship, essentially improving the quality of our connection by showing up.
If you have listened to this show before, you may have heard me mention that I am a big believer that relationship will present opportunities for growth. It will be our curriculum for growing ourselves, showing us our edges, showing us our threats and insecurities, and all in the theme to bring it to the surface, so that we can heal, grow and develop. It’s not an easy task, but it is a rewarding task.
I appreciate you joining me on these episodes, and if you have a topic of interest that you would like to hear a show about, please feel free to contact me on my website, which is DrJessicaHiggins.com click on Contact, and you can find all the ways to reach me there, as well as submitting a request for a podcast episode, as well as submitting a request to receive live laser coaching on the show. And again, you can find that on the Contact page at DrJessicaHiggins.com.
Let’s get started in today’s episode. Again, this is 190, “How to shift out of the chaos in relationship”, an interview with Dr. Laura Louis.
As a licensed psychologist, Dr. Laura Louis is a widely sought-after speaker specializing in helping couples press the reset button after infidelity. Her five-step training program, Marriage Matters, has helped couples reawaken their connection. Affectionately deemed as the “Marriage Architect”, Dr. Louis gives couples the tools to build their marriages.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Dr. Laura Louis, thank you for joining us today. It’s a pleasure to have you on the show.
Dr. Laura Louis: Thank you for having me, I’m excited to be here.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, it’s a pleasure… I know you reached out a while ago, and it’s just taken me some time to really get you on the show. One of the topics that you speak about is how to stop the chaos in relationship. Can you give us some sense of what you’re referring to when you’re talking about the chaos?
Dr. Laura Louis: I think that home should be a place of peace. We go through lots of different things in life, and work, and just managing different obligations, and so if home could be a place of respite, a place to restore, then I think that that allows couples and each person in the partnership the opportunity to just rebuild, and so when they are out in the world, they’re coming from a place of being refueled.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, it sounds so, so important, given how fast most of our lives are, and all the different demands… And particularly for people that have children, or have a lot of domestic responsibilities – there can feel like work at home, too.
Dr. Laura Louis: Absolutely. Absolutely. When you have children, a lot of times we see, based on the research, that relationship satisfaction can take a hit when couples first transition to parenthood… So having the tools and strategies on how to stay on the same page, and when chaos does feel like it’s starting to creep into the relationship, having strategies on how to not let it linger I think is key.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay, and so the way you’re defining chaos – I’m imagining there could be many definitions that would take us out of that piece, whether or not it’s being really overwhelmed and stressed, or whether or not it’s being super-distracted, or even that conflict and where people are not on the same page, don’t feel like they’ve got each other’s back, and are seeing each other kind of as a — not an enemy, but someone that they don’t feel completely safe, and maybe feel threatened by.
Dr. Laura Louis: Absolutely. When you are under a large amount of stress, we know that the body increases cortisol, and when we have high levels of stress, the ability to just think rationally and problem-solve and figure out solutions – that becomes compromised… Compromised at home and compromised at work. So for us to just be our best self, our best version of ourself, I think being able to manage the conflict, manage the stress, and also feeling like you have a solid team member can really make a difference.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, yes. Okay, so for people that are listening and maybe aren’t feeling that sense of peace and restorative space at home, or are perhaps feeling really challenged by high levels of conflict, the chaos, where would you like to start in this conversation? Because I can see that we could talk about how to implement more peace and relaxation and more of that support in a positive way, but also there’s the managing, like you’re saying, the conflict.
Dr. Laura Louis: I think the first step is to really get clear about what is the issue… Because sometimes couples will have fights about just random things, like “You keep leaving your toothpaste out!” or “Why can’t you clean up the sink?! Why aren’t you taking care of this thing?!” And really, that may not even be the core issue. A lot of times I may see that the core issue is “Do you love me? Do I matter to you?” I think that’s the first step – really getting clear.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And how would you recommend a listener that’s noticing some of maybe these more nitpicky, like “Are we really fighting about the toothpaste, or the dishes, or the sink?” and to recognize how does someone pinpoint if it is stress and overwhelm, or if it’s something deeper, like a deeper insecurity, like “I don’t really know if you’re thinking about me, or you care about me, or love me.”
Dr. Laura Louis: I think it first starts with getting clear about who you are. Sometimes who you are right now is just a manifestation of what you’re dealing with, but it’s not the core of you. For example, are you always snappy? Do you go home and kick the dog? Do you find that all the time you’re stressed? …not just at home, but also at work. I think that’s important to be able to identify – “Is this who I am because of what I’m dealing with in mini-areas of my life, or have I noticed that, you know, I’ve actually been this way for a long time, and it may be some parts of my personality, or characterological issues that I need to get to the root of?”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes.
Dr. Laura Louis: And sometimes that happens with therapy.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. Yeah, so you were about to mention something, and I was already still kind of affirming what you were just saying, about how – I think that’s such a good point, that if we can recognize that it shows up in other areas, that might be an indication that it’s something we’re dealing with as an individual, and the way we operate.
It just reminds me – I was working with a couple last night, and she tends to want to stop her feelings and not go there; I think she’s more highly sensitive, and it brings up a lot of challenge for her, and there’s lots of back-story to it, but… It shows up in her relationship, which we’ve been focusing on, but really where she was at was it was something that had happened at work, and what she was being challenged with… So this was really reflective of what you’re saying, that this is how she handles her emotional world, that shows up in her marriage, but it also shows up in many other areas.
Dr. Laura Louis: That’s a good point.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Were you about to go somewhere with the couples therapy?
Dr. Laura Louis: I just think that a lot of times we may not have the tools to be able to solve things ourself, and we need an objective third-party that can help facilitate dialog. I know for some people that can’t necessarily come from their spouse or their significant other… The person that is directing them or the person that’s telling them that maybe they could have said it differently, or worded it differently – sometimes that level of intervention is more effective when it comes from someone that’s outside of the relationship dynamics.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, absolutely. For sure. Okay, and so what would it look like if somebody’s recognizing “No, this is actually really specific to this person. It’s not how I am, it’s not really an individual thing and a personality thing, it’s more of how I feel with this person”?
Dr. Laura Louis: One of the things that I find is when we are mindful of the way that we come across, that can make such a big difference. John Gottman – he’s a relationship researcher and he talks about this concept of gentle startups. We have a self-startup and we are using things like I statements, and reflective listening, and we’re making statements like “When this happened, I felt disappointed”, and also giving each other recipes for success. “What could really help me in feeling supported as I’m going through this is…” You know, just framing things in a way, and our body language and tone is set up in a way that it makes it easier for the other person to hear and digest what we’re saying – I find that that can be really helpful, especially when you’re delivering a difficult thing to your partner.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right. And one of the things you’re talking about with us today is the chaos… I love what you’re saying about being able to have self-awareness in your delivery, and also your message. Sometimes – I’ve been there; I’ve been feeling something and I just spout off whatever it is that I’m feeling, and it’s not really connected to what my deeper pain is. Like “When you said X, Y and Z, my feelings were hurt” and then I could take issue with the way you’re saying it, but really my feelings are hurt. So to tell you “Hey, I don’t know if you know, but my feelings were hurt, and here’s why.” And that’s a vulnerable thing to do. But there’s a lot of steps that come before that, is that right, Dr. Louis?
Dr. Laura Louis: Yes, absolutely. Sometimes we need coping skills… Like, if I’m in the heat of the moment and I’m so frustrated with something that my husband said, sometimes I need to just step away. Because if I try to say it in the dialog, it’s not gonna come out the right way; it’s gonna be hard for me to manage my tone… So for me, sometimes that looks like going on a run, going hiking, taking a hot bath, lighting some lavender candles… Doing things to help recenter me before I can enter into the dialog.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right, so calming the nervous system, really regulating, finding that centered place to get that equilibrium… And then where does that awareness — because I think there’s an ability to calm down. Even the client that I’m talking about – she can calm down, but she’s maybe doing it in a way of distraction, rather than insight.
Dr. Laura Louis: Sometimes I find that having other people be able to point out to you things that you’re seeing outside of your mate can make a difference. Not necessarily going into the details of what’s happening with your spouse, with other people, but — say for example my brother… My brother really challenges me, in a way that nobody else in my life challenges me. But because I trust him, and I trust the love that he has for me, I can receive it from him in a different way, because at the end of the day I know he has my best interest at heart.
So thinking about who are those people in your life — maybe it’s marriage mentors, maybe it’s an older couple that you see them in different settings in your life, and you know that they have weathered many storms in their marriage… But having other people to kind of point out to you things that you can’t necessarily see for yourself – for me I’ve found that that’s been tremendously helpful.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice. Okay, so sometimes if we’re not having a practice that helps us gain that insight that you mentioned earlier, having a third-party that could assist to facilitate some of that reflection and identifying what we’re feeling on a deeper level… Or if we’re not doing that, that there’s also some really trusted advisors, I guess. Maybe we wouldn’t call them advisors, but people in our life that really show up, that are not just agreeing with us to give us that support, but more helping us see ourselves more clearly, that there could be insight in that.
Dr. Laura Louis: Absolutely. And then another thing that I do in my work – I have a practice, Atlanta Couple Therapy, and one of the things that I do is journaling. I help my couples by giving them different journal prompts. There’s something about writing down your thoughts that helps understand “Okay, well what was my trigger? Where did my mind go at that moment? Because what I was feeling was intense sadness, and despair…” But it necessarily wasn’t tied to this exact moment. It might have been tied to way earlier things that happened, that never were fully processed, and sometimes we’re not even able to identify until we just take a moment and write it out.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that. I’ve found that to be really helpful as well. My first reaction is usually to take issue with my partner, and to kind of critique him… But if I take time and really dive into what is it that I’m feeling, what does it remind me of, what am I needing, it helps me really unpack it to get to that deeper layer. And then, from there, I think that’s where I feel that gentle startup can be so helpful, because I’m giving that vulnerable nugget, and it’s in a gentle way… So like you were saying, he’s more likely to hear that, versus me coming to him. Because I’ve seen so many times – I wonder what your thoughts are on this, but if somebody will attempt to do the gentile startup, but it’s really offering a criticism… [laughter] Or a judgment…
Dr. Laura Louis: Yes…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: You can be gentle about it, but most likely you’re gonna get defensiveness. So that’s why I was probing, because this insight I think can be really helpful.
Dr. Laura Louis: That is so good. I think that that is a really good point. And I definitely find that in myself too, where I can be thinking about “Okay, well what did he do?” and it’s all about what he did wrong, versus like at times, stepping away from it, I can get a different perspective and see my own role. And I love what you said about asking yourself what did you need. I think that is so good. That’s a really good reflection.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Thanks. When I’ve done this work, Dr. Louis, I feel as though when I get in touch with that more vulnerable truth, it’s like I have a somatic sensation or resonance of like “Oh, that’s it…!” And it’s usually the thing I don’t wanna say, but it’s the thing that actually sets free that conflict, because I’m not going back and forth, I’m just like “Here’s what it is.”
Dr. Laura Louis: That’s powerful.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And it’s so hard to reveal, but that’s for me a lot of times a game-changer.
Dr. Laura Louis: That’s good, that’s good. And I agree, sometimes the thing that’s hard to face – that’s the key! That’s the key that unlocks the intimacy, the closeness, the connection.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. Okay, so I wanna really get your feedback on this, because I know a lot of couples are really stuck in this chaos. And when I think about it, it is sometimes hard to find the thread to pick up. It’s so circular and it’s so much back and forth, and often times it’s like “No, you go first. You start off on a more positive note, and then I’ll follow you.” Or there’s just such contention. So for people that are really stuck in this chaos, can you give us maybe some starting points around — I mean, you’ve offered a lot, but I’m just wondering, is there anything additionally you would say when they’re really in this kind of thick of it?
Dr. Laura Louis: Absolutely. One thing is being willing to acknowledge your part, and also being willing to allow your partner to influence you. Maybe I don’t see myself 100% the problem in every area of the relationship, but maybe in some areas I could say [unintelligible 00:18:51.28] that came out the wrong way. I’m sorry, I apologize. What can I do to make it better?” And when I say that, I have to be willing to act on the thing… Because just apologizing but continuing the same behavior is not gonna work either. So one of the things that I find is that acknowledgment and change silences criticism.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Can you say that one more time?
Dr. Laura Louis: Acknowledgment and change silences criticism.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I like that, yes… Because even just that attempt, or the willingness and the effort – even if it’s not perfect, it’s likely your partner is gonna recognize the effort and the change that you’re attempting to make.
Dr. Laura Louis: Absolutely. And then one other thing that I would add is timing. Timing definitely matters when you’re trying to address a key conflict… Making sure that the timing is right. If someone is hungry, sleepy or tired, that is not the time to get into a full-blown debate about something.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. Now, do you find that if couples have been in the conflict and the chaos for a long period of time, it’s hard to shift this and to ask that question around “Can you give me some feedback around how might I be able to help, or what might I be able to do and take responsibility?” Help me with people that have been in this dynamic for a long time…
Dr. Laura Louis: One thing that I tend to see is that when couples are in a place of resentment, and maybe there have been multiple hurts that have piled on top of hurts, that have never really gotten the opportunity to fully be processed, in a lot of cases bitterness can start to creep in, resentment can start to creep in… And in those cases, oftentimes I see stonewalling happening. Stonewalling happens when one person withdraws; either a withdrawal emotionally, or a physical withdrawal, like “I’m done with this conversation. I’m out of here. I’m sleeping on the couch…” Or a withdrawal emotionally is where there’s just one-word answers. “How are you?” “Fine.” “Everything okay?” “Yes.” Just one-word answers.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And so what do you find if couples are experiencing that?
Dr. Laura Louis: It depends on a couple factors. One factor is is the stonewalling happening because there’s been flooding? Flooding is when a person is having heart palpitations, racing thoughts, and it’s mostly about the situation that’s happening in the moment. If one person is flooded, then the best route is to take a break. And that break is 20 minutes to two hours, where they just go somewhere, practice some of their coping skills, set a time that they’re gonna come back and address the issue.
If the stonewalling has been there for a long period of time, and it’s not necessarily about what’s happening right now, but it’s about a longer, deeper history, then in those cases having some outside party can really get the ball moving in terms of creating a safe space for them both to have dialog and reconnect with each other.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And maybe start to work with those long-standing resentments… Because if it’s compounded, that’s gonna be pretty complex for them to negotiate on their own, it sounds like…
Dr. Laura Louis: Absolutely. Absolutely. Which is when they come to you!
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Or you…! [laughter] Exactly. Okay, so you’re giving us some context, and this helps us orient a little bit of the lay of the land. Just to kind of recap – when a couple is experiencing chaos and conflict, sometimes it might just be stress-related, sometimes it might be a way in which somebody moves through the world; maybe, like you said, they’re a little more salty, or just have this edge… And to maybe recognize that that could be stress, it could be a lot of things, but maybe there could be some personality thing there. And it’s not super-specific to the relationship. Yes, it shows up, but it’s not a relational dynamic necessarily. Is that right?
Dr. Laura Louis: Absolutely, absolutely.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay. And that we can get some support to look at “Okay, maybe there are some ways I might be able to soften and get more result in what I’m wanting in my marriage, or my relationship, and also in other areas, at work etc.” And then perhaps there are some significant things that are happening in the relationship, and that are specific to the dynamic, and to really work towards getting that self-awareness on “What is it that I am feeling?”, whether or not it’s in the support of a therapist, or trusted support person, or through journaling, and reflection, and to get that insight, and then to be able to take the step of bringing that to your significant other in a gentle way, so they’re more likely to hear you.
Dr. Laura Louis: Yes, spot on.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay. And then if couple are really experiencing a lot of the conflict, and it’s just been blowing up for a while, there could be some real, like “Okay, let’s just lay our swords down for a minute… I really care about how I’m showing up for you”, and asking for that feedback around “What might I be able to do that would help when we’re trying to talk about these more sensitive subjects, and to be able to take some ownership and make some efforts to contribute towards more of a positive dynamic, and really make some change?”
Dr. Laura Louis: Yes, absolutely. I love that point there, because that speaks to the idea of we’re on the same team. It’s not me against you, and one of us wins and the other person loses, because that doesn’t work. It’s us both figuring out “How can we both win together? How can we both let each other know that you matter to me, your happiness matters to me? Us being able to work through this is important to me.” I think that can be so healing.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, because I think in our line of work – I don’t know if you feel this way, but so often there’s a lot of recommendations around creating safety, and being vulnerable, and focusing on more constructive ways of relating, that help people resolve issues… But sometimes just what you’re saying, and affirming “You matter” and “I love you” and “I’m having a hard time, but I want us to do better” – that statement can be so healing, like you’re saying, and that positive mention of that bond. I don’t know that we emphasize that enough.
Dr. Laura Louis: Absolutely, absolutely. Sometimes I think “Oh, it’s this magical technique”, but it’s just those conversations, like you’ve just said, yeah.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And that can be hard… You know, as I’m thinking about couples that are maybe in the thick of it; that’s also really vulnerable, if we’ve got our guard up, and we’re feeling defensive… To really show someone your heart… If you’ve been in conflict and they might say something snide, that’s gonna feel vulnerable.
Dr. Laura Louis: Absolutely, absolutely. And one of the areas that I specialize in is helping angry/distant couples reconnect… So sometimes it has gone to a place where there’s defensiveness, or there’s controlling, or hostile humor, and so in those cases nobody wants to put down the dagger and show that more vulnerable side, because of fear of being hurt.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. Well, can you give us any insight into — I know there’s no way to do that justice, but is there anything you might be able to offer a listener who does feel that distance and maybe does experience anger, and how to reconnect?
Dr. Laura Louis: One of the things that I would recommend is being willing to first take responsibility for a part of the problem. And then second, being mindful of like “Okay, what does my mate really mean?” Underneath what they’re saying there’s a longing. In most cases, behind every yell, argument, there is a deep longing. So try to hear that.
Someone comes home and they’re like “These dishes are everywhere. I’m tired of washing the dishes!” The natural feeling could be to yell back. “Well, you wash the dishes!” But instead, maybe there’s a longing underneath the fussing. A longing of “Man, I just wish that this space could be nice. Gosh, I just wish that the home could be clean, and in order. That could really just give me a sense of peace, if we could just kind of keep things in a certain order, and we were doing it together. That would make me feel like I’m not alone in trying to figure this out.” So trying to hear the longing beyond the control and defensiveness.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, I wanna underscore, underscore, underscore that, because that I think can be so empowering, to have a sense of that longing, because then we can work towards that. It’s much more specific; it usually feels like understandable, like “I want that for you too, and I wanna support that”, versus like you said, the maybe criticism of “I washed the dishes the last three nights!” So to really get at that real specific need, and there’s usually a lot of positivity around that.
Dr. Laura Louis: Yeah, absolutely. And then one of the things that I talk about in my book, Marital Peace, is I talk about there are certain words that are trigger words. As soon as one person says one of those trigger words, immediately defensiveness comes up. So in Marital Peace I talk about “always”, “never” and “but.” As soon as those words come out of one person’s mouth, the other person is like “Well, I didn’t do it. You did it last time”, and then the cross-complaining comes up.
So in my practice I’ll say “We’re gonna treat those words like four-letter words. Always, never and but – we’re just not gonna use those words.”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that. That’s so great. Yeah, that’s a pretty good rule of thumb for people to work with, because like you said, there’s so much evidence to support how that is just gonna lead down the wrong road.
Alright, so is there anything else that you wanna say about helping couples start to shift into a more positive connection, out of chaos and conflict?
Dr. Laura Louis: No, I think we covered it. Keep in mind your partner is your teammate. Oh, one other thing is staying focused. Staying focused is another key, important factor in keeping the chaos out of your relationship. Sometimes there’s this habit of we’re talking about one thing, and then we bring up things that happened three years ago. And sometimes us as ladies – we can be really good at remembering things from a long period of time. So I would say just being mindful of how much we get off focus.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right. Okay, so for people that are keeping that in mind, let’s say they have this thread that starts to pop. “Well, this reminds me of that. And this is super-important”, and then there’s all these other things that get brought up. What would you recommend for someone to do that’s experiencing that?
Dr. Laura Louis: I get it, because I do it sometimes too, where it may be something that feels familiar, and it reminds me of something else, and then that triggers another conversation… But it’s hard to get progress if we’re piling a bunch of things on top of each other. So I would say just focus on what’s going on at that time, and if there is a deeper need, focus on the recipe for success, but not necessarily going into detail about “Well, you did this! Well, you did this before!” Really being mindful of that.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I like that… That maybe the story doesn’t matter as much; it’s more of the deeper need. And it might be exemplified in all these different situations, but if we can stay with the deeper need, then that’s more the key than the whole story about all the different events.
Dr. Laura Louis: Absolutely.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that. And I guess before we wrap up I wanna just give an opportunity if there’s any example or a couple that comes to mind that has been able to really turn chaos into connection.
Dr. Laura Louis: I do a lot of work around rebuilding trust after infidelity, and I will never forget a time where I was doing a workshop on rebuilding trust, and one lady in particular – she came up to me and she was like “Dr. Louis, I had filed the paperwork. I had completely filled out all of the paperwork, and I was ready to file for divorce. But after coming today to this workshop, I have some tools on how I can get trust back in place, and it renewed my hope that it’s even possible…” Because sometimes when you’re in that place of conflict you can not even see the light of things looking differently. You could start to feel like there is no hope.
So that’s one piece of guidance – I would encourage the couples out there who are listening to know that where you are right now, even if there is a lot of conflict, know that there is support out there, and there are strategies, there are ways that you can get out of the stuck place that you’re in.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. So you actually saw that couple really turn — they were on the brink of divorce, and reconnecting and really building trust.
Dr. Laura Louis: Yes.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice. Was there anything about the trust, or was it just echoing some of the things we have talked about? Was there anything about that that you wanna point out?
Dr. Laura Louis: For rebuilding trust, one of the things is acknowledgment of the impact. In my line of work I see a lot of different types of sorries. “I’m sorry. Just get over it.” “I’m sorry. How many times do you want me to say it?” So it doesn’t quite capture the impact of what has happened when the trust has been broken. So “I’m sorry that I hurt you. I know this has had a huge impact on your ability to trust me. I’m willing to do the work.”
That’s part of the healing – being willing to understand that the apology may be an ongoing process, it may not be just that one apology. And then for the person who had their trust broken, it’s getting the support that they need – be it through counseling, be it through coping skills, but also understanding that this is long-term treatment, so not expecting that it’s gonna be a miraculous change overnight. So really being willing to invest in trust-promoting behaviors and conversations in a healing-oriented way.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, and I think that can be tricky for the person that’s been betrayed, because they almost feel like they have a license to punish or shame or blame, and that just continues to create the disconnect, so… I love it. And I know that that’s not what we’re talking about today, so I don’t wanna dive in too much, but… Thank you so much for your time.
How do people get in touch with your work and what you’re offering?
Dr. Laura Louis: The best way to connect with me is AtlantaCoupleTherapy.com Also, I have a YouTube channel where whenever I speak — I’ve done over 200 workshops all around the country and internationally… Whenever I get a question that comes up more than once, I say “Okay, I’m just gonna record a video on this.” So if you search for Dr. Laura Louis, then my YouTube channel will come up.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Oh, fine. I will make sure to put that on today’s show notes, so it’s easy to access, and I will look forward to watching some of those videos as well. So you have workshops all over the country, and internationally too?
Dr. Laura Louis: Yes. I’ve spoken in Asia, I’ve spoken in Brazil, getting ready to go to London in a couple months… In January I will be in Hawaii… And I also have a membership program, so for couples out there who want to go a little bit deeper than we could on our interview today, then they can connect to my membership program, and that has expert trainings on communication, intimacy, rebuilding trust… And then I also have a one-dollar trial. It’s $20 a month, but you can start with one dollar.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Fine. And that’s on your website?
Dr. Laura Louis: I can send you the link to post it in the show notes.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay, that sounds great. Well, it was such a pleasure to have you, and thank you for sharing your expertise on these topics, and offering guidance and tips for us today.
Dr. Laura Louis: Absolutely, my pleasure. I just wanna say thank you for having me, thank you so much for what you’re doing… Because I think it’s so crucial that we have spaces where we can have conversations like this. So I appreciate you for building a platform for these types of dialogues to take place.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Oh, thank you so much.
I hope you have enjoyed today’s episode with Dr. Laura Louis. I particularly appreciate her playful nature, bringing in evidence-based tools that are really practical and simple to implement. If you would like access to today’s show notes, you can find that on my website, which is DrJessicaHiggins.com. Click on Podcast and you can find all the episodes there. Again, that’s DrJessicaHiggins.com.
Until next time, I hope you take great care.
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