Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 192, “How to resolve financial anxiety in your relationship”, an interview with Lindsay Bryan-Podvin.
Before we get started, I just wanna thank you for joining in these conversations as we embark on the journey of growing ourselves and being more skillful in relationship, with the hope that we can expand our capacity for more love, more happiness, more connection in relationship. The conversations on this podcast, the Empowered Relationship podcast, is setting you up to be more prepared to navigate the landscape of long-term intimacy. I interview other experts, I also provide content that I see as extremely relevant to be considering, and I also answer your questions, and occasionally I provide live, laser coaching. If you’re interested in submitting a question or perhaps getting coaching on the show, please visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Contact, and you can find all the ways to reach me there.
There are a number of ways that questions can get addressed on the show. They can be more woven into interviews, or perhaps an episode that I’m providing, or it can be a very direct answer to the question. Sometimes it’ll be an example that I am referencing; perhaps when I’m interviewing an expert I might reference a listener and her question… As I mentioned, I might use it as an example, and other times I will provide very direct feedback, particularly when I feel the question is touching on something that has not yet been addressed. I’ll put a lot more attention on that. Again, you can find that information at DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Contact.
Let’s get started in today’s interview. I particularly enjoyed meeting with Lindsay Bryan-Podvin as she is bringing two fields together. I actually learned that financial therapy association is a new industry, more or less, and I find it really helpful that an individual or practitioner can have such expertise in both fields, because so often we seek guidance from one or the other – a therapist as it relates to our money issues, of perhaps we seek guidance from a financial advisor, or a specialist or consultant, but maybe they don’t have the therapeutic background to support some of the deeper, core beliefs that are operating and challenging us in relationship… So she’s got a beautiful blend of both.
Lindsay is a financial therapist dedicated to bringing couples the knowledge they need about personal finances to deepen their relationships. She’s passionate about helping couples feel at peace with their money. It’s her mission to open up a dialogue with her clients to talk about their money beyond the dollars and cents so they can feel darn good about how their money is working for them.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Welcome to the show, Lindsay.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Thank you, Jessica. I’m so excited to be here.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, we’re so lucky to have you speaking on finances, and the financial anxiety and the struggles that couples face when they’re negotiating perhaps differences around money. Before we dive into our topic today, just for people that are getting to know you, is there anything you can share, like what got you interested in this topic, and a little bit about you?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Absolutely. I come from a clinical social work background, so I had primarily been working in the depression and anxiety space professionally for some years, and personally, I’d always had an interest in personal finances, but I never felt the calling to really go down that road in terms of being a CFP, or something more in the numbers space… So I just thought I’ll do the mental health thing, because that’s where I feel comfortable.
What I’ve found as time went, as no surprise to anybody who works with anybody, money issues come up all the time, and often in our training we aren’t given a lot of tools to help clients process the baggage that can come with money. So what I wanted to do was to be able to provide a space for my clients who were already feeling comfortable in the office with me to be able to explore that a little bit more thoroughly. So I went on to get my certificate in financial social work, and I’m a member of the Financial Therapy Association… And it helps to kind of bridge the gap between financial literacy and education, and the psychological, emotional and cultural baggage that money has.
I’ve shifted into couples as I’ve been in this space because what I’ve found happening was that a lot of my clients were coming in individually, but they were in partnerships, and really quickly it became clear that I needed both people in the room in order to do really good work… Because people would come in thinking “Oh, it’s just my issue, or it’s just their issue, but we can kind of keep them separated.” At first I honored that, and then pretty quickly I went “Okay, well if we’re gonna go anywhere, you both need to be in the room”, and that’s how I shifted into this space for working primarily with couples. The financial industry calls them HENRYs, so they’re the High Earners, Not Yet Rich clientele. It’s often people in their 30’s and 40’s who have good jobs, and yet are still struggling with the range of emotions that money can bring up, whether it’s feeling like you don’t have enough, or you don’t deserve the money that you have, and fill in the blank from there. So that is how I got into this particular niche.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love it, and I honestly have to just say I never even knew that there was this beautiful blend between the actual finances and the therapeutic world, and that there’s an association, and it’s a whole field. That just shows me that there’s a lot for me to learn here, too.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: It’s relatively new. I would say the Financial Therapy Association is probably about ten years old, and they’ve just rolled out their certification process this fall. So my guess is that this field will start to pick up some steam as it gets more popular, and as the credentials start to roll out… But you’re not alone in not knowing that it’s a thing.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice. Well, I’m so grateful for you to be able to share your insight and understanding to listeners who are in relationship or have had relationship challenges and really wanna improve their skillfulness. Let’s just kind of name the territory then, so that someone who’s listening to this show could identify what are the challenges that people typically face. I know it seems really obvious, but let’s just name some.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Yeah, so it really runs the gamut, but essentially the big themes that I find come up again and again are just shame and guilt, and that shame and guilt and anxiety I guess are the things that tend to show up, whether you feel like it’s a lack of money, or too much money, which – I know some people “Too much money? How is that a problem?”, but you would be surprised (or not surprised) to know that that is a real issue for people who have money.
But when it comes to couple work, what I tend to find happen is that the odds that both people in a partnership are 110% on the exact same page about how they want to manage their finances is rare. In fact, I don’t think I’ve met anybody who’s like “Oh yeah, we just blended our finances and we never had to discuss it, and everything worked out beautifully.” Even for the couples who are closely aligned, there’s still some work that has to be done to make sure that the financial intimacy is there, and that’s what I preach a lot – financial intimacy and financial empowerment.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that. So you’re giving some general themes around what you see, and it sounds like there’s perhaps quite a bit of conflict, where couples may approach their financial management and planning really differently, and that poses opportunity to feel more empowered.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Yes.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And then on the same note, I’m just even reflecting when my husband and I got support for our financial management – it was less about our actual financial standing, but more around a process that we both feel good about. I think I’ve been a little more intuitive in how I do my finances, and he has been a little more structured, and very practical… And I remember – you’re speaking to shame, and so listeners have heard me talk about, I do have quite a bit of student loan debt that I’m paying off every month, and have been paying off for ten years, and it’s just daunting… Because I have two graduate degrees and an undergrad. And I didn’t come out of undergrad with a lot, but it was my two graduate degrees.
So I remember I just started crying… And he knows about my student loan debt, so it wasn’t anything new to him, but just the shame – I wish I didn’t have this. And as a couple, I wish I didn’t have — and I hold my own responsibility for that student loan, I don’t want him to pay for it, but I just remember I was really surprised at the emotion that came up for me… So I do agree with you, there’s a lot that maybe we’re not even aware of.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Yeah, and you spoke to something that is so, so common and problematic – the personal finance space tends to operate in a way in which they believe everybody should manage their money in the exact same way, and a lot of the messaging that we get from the world of personal finance is that debt is bad. If you are a person who has heard Dave Ramsey before, you will know that he says things like “People with debt are stupid.”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Oh, my god… [laughs]
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: And will say it again and again… The problem with that type of language is that of course it’s gonna make you feel like garbage if you’re trying to take control of your personal finances, and you check out a handful of books from the library and they’re all from these people who are telling you that if you have debt, you’re a bad person, you’re not smart, you’re not managing things well, you can’t live your life while you have debt… There’s so much negative energy and negative language that is pushed out by that community, that then can certainly turn off a person, and then have them go “Well, then I guess I just won’t be good with money. I must be stupid. I’m just going to avoid.”
From personal experience, I personally have been in recovery from an eating disorder in my early twenties, and that was also around the time that I started getting entrusted in personal finance… And what spoke to me about what was missing in this space of personal finance was that compassion and that acceptance, and — I’ll tie these together, don’t worry… But what I’ve found when I was recovering from my eating disorder is that so much of it was related to shame and guilt, and good things and bad things, and I heard the same type of messaging in the personal finance space, of “You should have shame if you’re not managing your money properly. You’re bad if you break your budget.” And I didn’t want yet another thing in my life to be dictated by shame and guilt and negativity, which is why I do the best that I can to shout from the rooftops that you can have debt and be a good person, and certainly most of us, I would imagine, have some sort of debt, or don’t have that eight-month emergency fund, or aren’t fully funding our retirements, and we’re still good people.
So yeah, I hear that sentiment a lot, Jessica, of feeling just shame around having this debt. And in your case, like a lot of people who take out student loan debt, the debt wasn’t for nothing. I’m sure you’ve already worked through a lot of this on your own, but certainly you wouldn’t be where you are today if you hadn’t gone through that experience and that additional training and education. It was afforded to you by the debt that you took on.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, there’s times definitely when I make my student loan payments and I’m so grateful for the position that I am in, having been able to develop my career in the way that I have, and the education… So there is a lot of gratitude.
When you’re talking about the compassion and the understanding, it sounds like that’s a critical piece in being able to create a safe space for people to approach these topics, that might have a lot of underlying emotion. Is that right?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Absolutely, absolutely. And a lot of that inner child work, or sensory-motor work, can certainly be applicable when you are addressing your money stories and your money beliefs… Because like so many things, our beliefs about money are shaped when we’re young. So to go back and look at your elementary age school self and be kind and compassionate to the messaging they were absorbing about money can be really helpful as you start to dig into the financial work.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Can you give us a story of someone who worked with their younger self around the messages that they received around money?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Yeah, absolutely. There’s so many different ones, but one that comes to mind is a message that a lot of us would probably go “Oh, that’s great. That’s an abundance mindset message. What a great lesson to have internalized as a child”, and one is of a person who growing up had an extended family member – I can’t remember if it was an aunt or uncle, but somebody in their extended family who was incredibly generous with gifts on holidays, and birthdays, and big celebrations, and would cut this person a big check. The lesson that that person learned as a child was that there will always be more money. And what a gift to give your child that message, except that when it came to this person becoming an adult and being in their early twenties, struggling to then manage their finances when they were independent, because they were used to having those checks show up 3, 4, 5, 6 times per year… And then struggling with that internalized message of “Oh, money will just always be here”, which then unfortunately ended up leading this particular person to manage their money really poorly, to the point where they ended up having to declare bankruptcy.
So those are the messages that we can absorb, and some of the work we’ve done together is looking at that through the lens of compassion and understanding… And of course it makes sense that you looked at your money as though there would always be more, and we have to include that messaging with some tangible financial management skills so that that can be really productive for you as an adult.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: It sounds like there is some exploratory work around what are the messages, what are the early beliefs and mindsets around money, and then unpacking that, identifying it, and then there’s a way to perhaps repattern it, or complement it with something else that makes it a little more well-rounded… Is that what I’m hearing you say?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Yeah, definitely. And for each couple, for each person, what particular therapeutic modality works for them is going to be different. For some of them it might just be sitting with it and exploring it with curiosity and being really compassionate, and for other people bringing more of that behavioral activation approach. “Okay, this was the messaging that I learned, but what do I do now to prevent that messaging from getting into a really sticky situation again?” and that might be more of the financial literacy route that we take in our work together.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I like it. It’s such a two-pronged approach, and you’re really using the practical tools from the finance world, but you’re also looking at the deeper layers from the therapeutic standpoint. You can’t just do one, is that right?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I would say that is the biggest problem – people think that money is one-dimensional. It’s just a budget, it’s a spreadsheet, it’s simple math, and there’s a lot of truth in that. I do think the math is pretty simple. But the problem is that when you try to approach money from that one-dimensional approach of “Oh, it’s just a math problem”, you’re discounting all of the other things that come into play with our relationships with money. So you have to kind of do this little dance of financial literacy, and then shift back into some mindset work… It’s always fun and keeps me on my toes, but yeah, I like how you said that; it’s a multi-pronged approach.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, for people that are listening I just wanna help give some practical steps here… So what would you recommend for people that maybe recognize there is some tension around money, or perhaps they and their partner are not necessarily plugged into something that works – what would you recommend in just identifying perhaps their money situation?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Yeah. Like a lot of couples work, I think first and foremost it’s just setting a time and space for the two of them to talk about it, as calmly and with as much neutrality as is possible… So letting your partner know “Hey, I’ve been noticing these things, either with the budget, with the spending or with the saving” or “I’ve been noticing that we’ve been behaving in this way more, and it’s impacting our money. Can we set aside some time to talk about it?” And then using that space to explore what’s going on. Is it that we moved into a new neighborhood and now we’re experiencing this lifestyle creep or “In our neighborhood everybody goes out to dinner, and that’s how they socialize”, so now we’re doing that, when that didn’t use to be our thing? Is it “Oh my gosh, one of us lost a job and now we’re super anxious that that will happen again, so we’re kind of hoarding our money?” Setting aside time to talk about it, and using a lot of the tips that we would use in traditional couples therapy – I language, pointing out the behaviors that might be problematic and enquiring about what might be going on there…
One example that I use often is that for so many of our couples – they do have similar values, but the behaviors that they use to meet those values might be different. So let’s say a couple really values security, and one partner, for them financial security means having a lot of liquid cash, a lot of cash accessible to them in their checking account. And for another partner, financial security means owning a lot of real estate. How do you together decide what feels best for us? How can we both feel secure in our partnership and in our relationship with money, while honoring each person’s belief that security is money in the bank, or is money tied up into a real estate investment?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I like it. So there’s a general need, but it might get fulfilled in different ways…
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Lindsay, what would you say — because I’m listening to you, and yes, it sounds so simple, but also…
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: [laughs] Yeah, I guess I am making it sound really simple.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: No, I mean, I’m listening to you, and it is. But it also, for some, maybe isn’t. They recognize avoidance, or you speak a lot about financial anxiety… So help us with people that are having a hard time even landing having this conversation. What might be going on that’s blocking just even the conversation?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Yeah, I think the block can come from so many places. I’ll just speak from a cultural perspective of some of the messages that the bulk of us get about money, and how that might play into feeling really uncomfortable saying “money.” For example, I had one client who couldn’t even say “money.” We had to come up with a different code word, because it was so triggering, because it just felt for them dirty and gross and slimy. So we have our things.
But anyway, the messaging that we tend to get in our country, aside from the debt piece, is also that you’re allowed to have a certain type of relationship with money in certain scenarios. Let me explain… When we think of a person who is rich or who is wealthy, we tend to demonize that person, unless their story followed a very specific trajectory. And that trajectory was that this person grew up poor, or middle class, and they worked very hard and jumped through all the capitalist hoops, and they were able to then be in a space where they were able to earn a higher income, and then were able to be “wealthy.” That is a person who we cheer on, we say “Yes, they pulled themselves up from their bootstraps. What an amazing feat!” and we’re allowed to cheer them on. But pretty much them and only them.
Anybody else who has higher income or who is perceived as rich or wealthy who doesn’t come from that same trajectory often gets met with a bit of vinegar, let’s say. Let’s say that same person had children, and paid for their children to go to school, and put a down payment for them on a house, and etc. etc. We might say about those adult children “Oh my gosh, they were fed with a silver spoon. They had it so easy. They’ve never had to work hard in their life.”
So we have this very specific idea of who is and who isn’t allowed to have money, and very few people fit into that trajectory, and most of us don’t fit in that story anywhere. Some of us may never have a lot of money, some of us may be born into money and stay in that space, some of us may go up the financial ladder, some of us may go down that financial ladder… So for so many of us, if we don’t fit with that narrow, narrow story, it feels so weird to talk about money. So how do we even have a conversation about money when there really aren’t additional narratives or additional spaces that we can see how it’s how up for us?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And what do you recommend for someone that’s battling that story and feeling like they don’t fit, and having a lot of emotion about it?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: I would first and foremost say that they are not alone. Money work is hard, and it takes a really long time. And going back to the parallel with the eating disorders – a research shows that the traditional path of recovery from an eating disorder is about seven years long. It’s one of the hardest disorders to be in full recovery from. And I would argue that with money it’s similar, because money, just like food, we have to interact with every day, in some way and in some capacity… So it’s really hard to say “Oh, we’ll just set your money worries aside and we’ll come back to them when you’re feeling better”, because you have to interact with that all the time.
So first and foremost I would just say to a person who’s feeling anxious — I would just normalize that you aren’t alone. It makes sense that you feel uncomfortable, it makes sense that you’re confused about some of these things, and then kind of shifting into “What would feel like a good next step for you?”, kind of pulling from that [unintelligible 00:24:38.29] behavioral therapy triangle. Would it feel best to work on the sensations in your body when money comes up? Would it be best to go from an educational and behavioral activation side by looking at how the money is actually working in your life? Would it be best to tackle some of those anxious thoughts? What would feel like the next best step? And then kind of walking with them through whichever step they choose, and helping them expose themselves to those things that make them uncomfortable and anxious and work with them in that way.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And when we’re talking about relationship, do you feel that sometimes one partner has more anxiety?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Oh yeah, it’s all over the map… [laughter] It’s tough to say what different people feel, but I will say it’s not uncommon for different people — the one partnership I hear all the time is like “Oh, I’m a saver and she’s a spender”, or vice-versa… So from there, you can kind of shake out what’s going on. Because the anxiety could be with either person. They could be spending because they’re anxious, or they could be saving because they’re anxious.
So again, just in those partnerships, being curious about where that anxiety is coming from and how it is manifesting itself.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And what would you say to people, again, with that similar idea that even may be having this conversation is hard, and they avoid it, and it’s somehow working, but it’s not really working as optimal as it could?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Yeah, I would argue that it looks like it’s working, but it probably isn’t. To me avoidance is really, really difficult when it comes to our finances. It’s difficult in a lot of cases, but with avoidance with money, the problem is that if you avoid looking at interacting with, understanding, managing your money, you can actually have some pretty detrimental consequences… Whereas avoidance when you’re working with other types of disorders – it might be not a great coping skill, but it’s not gonna necessarily blow up in their face…
So it’s really important to say “Okay, even though you think it’s working – that’s great; maybe it is working. How can we take steps towards understanding what’s working in your relationship with money or in the way that you’re managing your money, and do it in a way that doesn’t cause you a ton of anxiety?” Being an avoidant person and sticking your head in the sand and going “Oh, money… By just closing my eyes really tight, the money stuff will sort itself out.” That’s also kind of wishful thinking, and we have to be really mindful that the financial anxiety can manifest into real, tangible financial problems if it’s not addressed.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And conversely, I would imagine that there’s so much benefit to being able to work together in a conscious way in a couplehood around money.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Absolutely. I tell my clients all the time, I think money dates are some of the sexiest dates you can have, because you get to dream together, you get to plan together, you get to imagine “What do we want our money to be doing for us in 5, 10, 15 years? What do we want our money to be doing for us in the next month? How cool would it be if we had a vacation home? How amazing would it be if we paid off our student loans early?” and all of those types of things can be so exciting. You also get a window into what is important to your partner in the future… So I also think it can really serve as a great connection piece and connection tool in your relationship.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: It reminds me of a book I read… I don’t even know if I’ve read the entire thing, but there’s a chapter two, “Smart couples finish rich.”
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Oh yeah, David Bach.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And he talks a lot about the values. That if people try to plan from this very structured budgeting, financial planning standpoint, that most people don’t have enough connection or [unintelligible 00:28:50.14] and if they connect with their values, like you’re saying, the sexiness of what we would love and what’s our vision – that’s where people wake up and get interested.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Right, absolutely.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: So many stories are coming up in my head around couples perhaps who have attempted to budget or attempted to have these conversations, that doesn’t really get them the results they’re looking for, or it just kind of runs the same cycle, and it doesn’t feel fruitful… What would you recommend for people that are like “I’ve been there, done that, but it doesn’t work”, or haven’t had the progress that they’re looking for?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: I would encourage them to think about what was the most successful in their attempts and what was the least successful in their attempts, so that they can continue to move forward. Obviously, I’m a proponent of therapy, because I’m a therapist, so I think that if you need to bring in a person who can help you navigate these things in a more neutral setting, in a more compassionate setting, that can be hugely helpful… But I would say don’t give up just yet. Give it another try, try somebody else. Everybody is different. For some couples, they really need to do a lot of work independently, in addition to their work with their partner, and there’s nothing wrong with that, so long as each person is coming back and kind of communicating together.
For some couples what I find is that there is almost naturally going to be one person in the partnership who’s more interested in the day-to-day management of the budget, or in the day-to-day management of the finances, and that’s perfectly fine… And that person who isn’t as interested, instead of just being 100% hands-off, “Oh, you just deal with it”, they should still be continuing to check in.
So having each person take the lead in the areas in which they are strong at, in which they excel and can be really helpful… Maybe the couple is like “We both have to go to our financial planner quarterly. We both have to ask x amount of questions, and we both have to sacrifice this much money from our monthly spending.” Maybe that idea of 50/50 just isn’t working, and you need to shift that balance more and align with each of your partners’ strengths. Maybe one person is really good at thinking forward, and having them take the lead when it comes to investments in retirement. Maybe somebody’s really good at the day-to-day stuff and they can kind of manage the monthly bills, and the groceries, and things like that… So having each person lean into their strengths can also be hugely empowering, for both people to not feel like “Oh, I don’t get money. I’m stupid. My partner does”, and to go “Well, actually, the way that I like to interact with money is in this particular capacity.”
So I would encourage them to not give up, to seek a therapist if needed, to check in with their strengths, what they can and cannot do well with money, and to also check in with their sensations and thoughts as they’re engaging with their money.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice. I know I have one couple coming to mine that’s fitting exactly what you’re describing, where this is his wheelhouse, this is what he does for a living. Not entirely, but it’s one of his strengths… And he really has a lot of investment in that it would fulfill a great amount for them and their lifestyle, so he knows the benefit of it. And for her – she’s much more… I feel like she is much more connected to the lifestyle, and maybe not being so rigid. I feel like when she describes her approach, it’s way more feminine in its qualities, and they’ve really struggled, and we’ve talked about how to have a meeting that supports her style as well. They’ve made a lot of progress, but it definitely has been an area of tension for them.
So what would you recommend for couples that, you know, you’re nudging people into the importance of having these conversations, and people that have gotten stuck in different ways, either individually, or in their couples dynamic…? When would you say it’s about time to get some support from a third-party, either a coach or a therapist?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: I would say when they find themselves– that’s actually really tricky. I was gonna say when they find themselves dreading the conversation, but I actually know plenty of people who dread this conversation that don’t necessarily need a therapist or coach. I would just say when it feels like you have given it your version of the college try and it still feels like you’re stuck, or the needle is moving, but it’s not moving in the direction that you had hoped, or it’s not moving as quickly as you’d hoped… I’m so pro reaching out and getting help that it’s hard for me to say exactly when. I mean, I’m obviously biased… [laughs]
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right. I love the ownership there. I agree that we can all benefit from getting support, every really proactively; even if there’s not really a problem or an issue, but why try to reinvent the wheel? There’s so many great support tools that up-level and help people have a faster, quicker result.
So what does it look like when it goes really well? If you can give us a story or an example of a couple that come in to engage with you but they’re at such odds, or they’ve had such challenges… What are some examples of what it looks like when it’s working really well?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: I guess what I would say is a couple that comes to mind where you could easily on the outside go “Oh my gosh, this is gonna be a real challenge. It probably won’t work.” A lot of couples have this issue when they come to me, which is the issue of financial infidelity. Financial infidelity is a little bit tricky to define; it’s essentially hiding anything financially from your partner, but you can get really nitpicky. Is that hiding the daily latte run from your partner, or is it hiding a property from your partner? I’ve seen all of those things.
But anyway, this couple had come in because one of them had found out about the other raking up nearly six figures in debt unbeknownst to them. And you could totally see how you’d be like “Wow, that was a huge betrayal. How could I ever possibly trust you again? I’m out of here.” Actually, that didn’t happen, and they came in and what we’ve found in working together through this therapeutic process was that the person who had taken on the debt really truly believed that the debt would help them as a couple in the long run. They thought of it as an investment; it was a business investment, so they had thought of it as an investment in their future, and they were hoping that would almost be like a surprise… Like, “Oh my gosh, look at how well my business did. See how beautifully things turned out?” And they really didn’t mean for it to be malicious, they didn’t mean for it to be a big secret… They truly felt like this was going to be a beautiful gift for their partner, and it didn’t shake out that way.
That being said, even if that was a big, beautiful gift for a partner, that’s still financial infidelity, to keep six figures of debt from your partner… Even if it resulted in a 10x return on investment, that’s still a big thing to keep from your partner. So we worked together through sorting out “Okay, how can you gift things to your partner? How can you surprise your partner and engage with them that doesn’t involve this level of secrecy?” And for the other person, “How much do you want to know about the business comings and goings? How much is important for you guys to take on, in a risk way, when it comes to your partner’s business? How, moving forward, will you guys have to interact with money?” That ended up working out really beautifully when you could completely see how it would be easy to say goodbye to that type of relationship.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: What a transformation…
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Yeah, it was really beautiful.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And what do you say some of the tools that people utilize – maybe for this couple in the example, like how frequent people should be…? I know it is so different depending on the couple and what they need, but I imagine from the financial world and couple world that there is some neighborhood that you see tends to be good recommendations around frequency, and budget, and those types of things.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Yeah, I think — so I would say in terms of the maintenance stage, what I recommend to my couples is even if they’re not coming here, they’re checking in with their money at least monthly. When I first start working with couples, I tell them to check on it at least weekly, sometimes daily in the beginning. That is more of kind of on the tangible side. But when it comes to therapeutically how often they should be coming in, what I find tends to work pretty well is actually something like every other week, and it’s because money is so heavy that oftentimes couples just need that time to recover, and to do that homework takes a little bit more time and energy and effort than other styles of therapy.
In terms of treatment length, it really depends, as you alluded to – it depends on the couple. I have worked with couples for as short as five or six sessions, and I’ve worked with couples for well over a year. So that is a little bit more dependent on the couple and what they’re hoping to get, and how much work they’ve also done individually before seeing me.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And what about a couple who is thriving? …that isn’t necessarily engaged; they’ve actually been able to dial in and work through their mindset, and money stories, and get into a more optimal zone, and that they know how to work through some of their triggers that might come up… What does it look like for a thriving couple who is doing money well?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: In terms of inside of the therapy space, or just in general?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: In general.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Oh, yeah. In general, I would say couples who are thriving, they are the ones who have an open dialog, just like with most other things. So I would say my thriving couples tend to look at their money monthly or quarterly. They tend to have mostly pooled accounts, with some wiggle room for money that they can spend with autonomy, and they are very good about checking in with each other about those purchases, about their goals… It’s just another part, another domain of their relationship. It doesn’t necessarily have to be this big sit-down thing; it’s, again, just something that comes up as casually or as easily as other things would, like “How is your family? What did you do at work today? What do you think is going on with our money?” It just is easy and folds into their conversation and into their partnership really beautifully.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I like that. So if a listener is like “Oh, I think of money in this compartment over here”, perhaps that’s a good indicator that there’s some attention to flesh out some of that…
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Yes, yes. If they only think about money as a partnership when taxes come due, my guess is there’s some work there to be done.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay. And then we might have already addressed this, but one of the things you talk about is being careful of doing a budget first, because that could backfire. Is that something you’ve already addressed, or is there anything else you wanna mention about that?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: No, I think we addressed it a little bit when I was talking about the language that comes from the personal finance space… But what I find a lot of people do is they dive head-first into the budget and the spending plan and all of this without knowing a Why behind it. Couples will be like “We’re gonna spend $500/month on groceries, and $100/month on discretionary funds etc.” and then they can’t stick to it when we look at it. It’s because it’s not realistic at all for them. They create these numbers based upon what they think sounds right, or based upon some blogger’s numbers, and they haven’t taken the time to tailor a spending plan truly to them, and to set themselves up for success.
I’ve got a couple who is blowing through 10k-15k a month and they come in and tell me “Well, we tried to live on 2k and it just didn’t work.” Well, duh. There is some stuff we have to take before we get there. So that’s why I say that people should really be cautious about diving first into a budget before they have done the whats and whys behind what’s important for them about having that particular spending plan.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that. So you wrote a book – or it’s coming up – The Financial Anxiety Solution?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: I did, yeah, Jessica. It comes out in winter of 2020. It’s officially available for pre-order today, so that’s very exciting. There are going to be some opportunities for people who pre-order the book. So if you buy two copies of The Financial Anxiety Solution – one for you, one for your partner, your neighbor, your neighbor, your mom, your college graduate, nephew – it doesn’t matter; when you buy two books and then send an email to me with a proof of purchase, I’ll send you a promo code so you can join a live budgeting workshop, where I’ll take you through the numbers side of things.
So yeah, people can pre-order that book, and if they buy two, they can come hang out with me virtually as I take them through a step by step automation plan to getting their money in order.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice. What a great gift. And can you tell us just briefly what are you hoping to accomplish with the book, and how people can utilize it?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Yeah, the book is a workbook style, so it’s very interactive, it’s very experiential. It is pulling from a lot of the things that we talked about today. So it takes financial anxiety and helps people process it using a variety of different therapeutic modalities. We talk about money through that cognitive behavioral therapy lens, we talk about it through the acceptance and commitment therapy lens by talking about our values, we talk about it from a sensory/motor lens of how it feels for you physically coming up… And the book isn’t for couples, it’s actually for individuals, because I think it’s really important for each person to do their own work.
So the bulk of it is really mindset and psychology. There are a couple of sections about the actual dollars and cents, but the book kind of reflects my philosophy about money, where it’s 80%-90% mindset and psychology, and it’s about 10%-20% the numbers.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Gotcha. And I’m thinking, Lindsay, if the opportunity to get two – one for yourself and one for your significant other – perhaps that’s such a great way to identify and do some of the personal work, so you’re prepped to have these more couple dialogues.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Yes, absolutely. That’s the hope – when we strengthen ourselves, we are able to bring it into our relationship and strengthen that as well.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And as you’re speaking too, as some of these principles really are similar in how we might approach other areas of challenge, that when we can have a better sense of self and awareness, and be able to communicate that in a little bit more of a distilled way, it really helps our partner be able to help us, or work with us, because they can understand it a little bit better.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Right, absolutely.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Wonderful. Well, how can people get in touch with what you’re up to and what you’re offering beyond the book?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Well, I have a couple of best ways to reach me. My business is called Mind Money Balance, and all of my stuff is usually updated on my website, MindMoneyBalance.com I am the most active on Instagram and YouTube actually, so you can find me on Instagram at MindMoneyBalance, and on YouTube.com/lindsaybryanpodvin.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Wonderful. I’ll make sure to have all of those links on today’s show notes. And just out of curiosity for people that are looking for a support person, are you doing coaching, so that you can work with people all over the nation and internationally?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: I am, and I am fully booked with the waitlist, so I am actually going to be piloting a group consulting coaching program starting in 2020. That will be my way to try and reach more people, because I’ve learned that there is such a need for this, and as you know being in this space, we can only see so many couples or so many individuals one-on-one, so I’m gonna be expanding my practice into that group coaching space, so that I can see more people and help others get in touch with their financial anxiety and sort it out, so they can feel really good about it.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And they can find that information on MindMoneyBalance.com.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Absolutely.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Wonderful. Well, thank you for being a guest today and sharing your insight and understanding around the world of money and how it shows up in couples.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin: Thank you so much for having me, Jessica. This was so fun!
I hope you have enjoyed today’s episode with Lindsay Bryan-Podvin. I also appreciate her compassion, her understanding and the warmth that she exudes, and the safety that she provides when talking about sometimes these very tender, difficult topics.
If you would like access to today’s show notes, visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast, and you can find all the episodes there. Again, today’s episode is 192, “How to resolve financial anxiety in your relationship”, an interview with Lindsay Bryan-Podvin.
Until next time, I hope you take great care.
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