Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 194, “How to alchemize your triggers into insights”, an interview with Tobin Zivon.
I am so appreciative of those of you that have taken the time to write a rating and review. I read all of them, and sometimes I actually come across a different platform and find reviews that I haven’t seen, and it’s so, so helpful for me, and I really appreciate it, and it does help the show grow. So if you are finding value in this podcast and what you’ve learned or listened to, I would so appreciate you taking a little time to write a rating and review on whatever platform you’re using… Because my goal, as you hear me talk about on most podcasts in the beginning, my intention is really, truly to help you feel more skillful, more understanding of what’s at play in relationship, and feel more prepared that you have more tools and resources for you to utilize and become more conscious of when you are navigating long-term intimacy.
I also share with you that I am on this path, and as I was talking about in the previous episodes, just the emails that I will put out oftentimes will share my own understanding and experience with some of the things that are talked about on the podcast… So I am on this path with you, deeply committed and devoted to the principles and practices. And when you reach out to me, I so love hearing how they’re working for you, and the impact that they’re having on you and your relationship and your families… So thank you. Thank you for being a listener and thank you for making a difference in your life and your relationships. It truly does have a profound impact at large.
Let’s get started in today’s interview… Again, 194, “How to alchemize your triggers into insights”, an interview with Tobin Zivon.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I really enjoyed meeting with Tobin as he has such a poetic and articulate way of naming some of what’s at play when we are feeling triggered and challenges in relationship… And he just helps us really get in touch with this process, and he has such a beautiful way of describing it.
Tobin Zivon has been a love, intimacy and sacred sexuality coach for over two and a half decades. The author of The Art of Mindful Living, Tobin helps groups, couples and individuals blossom to their highest potential.
His brilliance shines most brightly when working with men, women and couples in the realms of love, intimacy and sacred sexuality. Tobin has been lovingly nicknamed the “couples whisperer” and has worked with thousands of individuals and couples to break through into a new, more fulfilling and connected love life.
Tobin, welcome to this show!
Tobin Zivon: Thank you, Jessica. It’s so great to be here. It’s so good to meet you. First time, and I’m already just feeling thrilled to dive into these topics with you.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I know, likewise. Reading your bio, and who you’ve studied with, I’m just really feeling like you have so much to offer, and such a synergy with some of the topics that are discussed on this show, and have your voice be represented here.
Tobin Zivon: Thank you for doing what you do… It’s such a gift, truly.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Thank you. Well, for people that are just getting to know you today, or have had a little exposure to you, I guess I would love to have you share what got you interested in relationship?
Tobin Zivon: Honestly, I didn’t start off thinking “Oh, I really wanna become a relationship expert, and help people in relationship.” I was full devotional — I wanted to know the truth of my being, and I wanted to be free from all the conditioning that I was watching start to take me over, that reminded me a lot of my dad… I was like “I’m gonna go the other way, and I’m gonna use whatever tools…”
So I started books about zen, and I came across this sacred spiritual school in the California Bay Area called the Diamond Heart Program, which I think is still to this day the best stuff I’ve ever come across… And just diving in, diving in, to liberate my existence and wake up to the potentials that I know are possible for us as human beings, and just going for it in that realm… But you know, in my actual living of that, my life, I’m bumping into things in relationship. And just the compelling power of being one minute on a retreat in meditation, feeling the oneness and bliss of my nature, and totally in harmony with the entire fabric of the universe and beyond, and awake to the love that is, and feeling the ocean of bliss that everything exists as, and all of it… And then coming off and then bumping into these challenging, challenging dances with my partner.
So then that became a new area of like “Okay, what is going on here? What do we need to do really, deeply, authentically, to liberate the power of these forces and optimize the goodness that I know is possible here?”
I just had this intuition, and I think most of us do have this intuition that love and relationship and intimacy can be the most fulfilling, amazing thing in our lives, and yet we keep bumping into it being, for a lot of us, the most frustrating and challenging place in our lives… Or maybe a back and forth dance, depending on our karma and depending on what we’re living out in this lifetime. But for most, most people, we are bumping in… And I was definitely one of those people, like “Oh, my God…” I think the Universe in my soul — it was like, even though I wasn’t conscious of it, I was here to really look at, and understand, and live through, and alchemize, mostly in the area of love and intimacy, so that I could then kind of like live it and serve others in the living of that. So that just revealed itself to be my genius, or my dharma, or whatever word you wanna call it.
Then at a certain point in that journey – and I’ve been working with individuals and couples for a long time, but as I really deepened into the heart of the matter, and the depth of what it goes, and just really getting “Oh, this is how love optimizes… This is what we’ve gotta work with to really free ourselves from the power of those old, sticky things…” And at some point, my capacity to be able to help others in that became really kind of magic, and producing really big shifts really efficiently for people, especially when I work with couples. I came into this kind of modality and it just kind of revealed itself to be what I’m here to be and do.
This sort of the backdoor of my conscious awareness, that relationship, intimacy, love, even sacred sexuality pieces – they really became like a fountain of teachings and understandings that now come through me around all this.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. What you’re describing seems also common; not common like in commonplace, but just when people are accessing greater consciousness and spiritual connection in what exists, and how you were describing the love that is, and the articulation of that, and how we put that into human practice sometimes – sometimes we get challenges around the application, and I think relationship often will be such a mirror to our humanity… So oftentimes we have to embody that and really do the spiritual work to live it, and that’s a different thing, right?
Tobin Zivon: Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that you are doing that, and have done that. Well, I know one of the things we were gonna be talking about today was power struggles and frustrating patterns, but I’m so intrigued – you’re also speaking at heart of it, in optimizing love. Is there anything you wanna speak to around what you’re up to in that regard?
Tobin Zivon: Yeah, so to me it’s always this two-step dance; I call it the two-step dance of embodying our true potential in the areas of love and intimacy… And the one step is kind of aligning ourselves with these ways of being, these energetics… You could call them even tools or techniques; in the beginning they might need to be tools or techniques, but they start to just be ways of being, ways of existing… That as we show up according to those ways of being, it does optimize, it just brings out more of what’s possible in the experience of love, and what I consider kind of like true, and abiding, and deepening love, as opposed to that kind of romantic, euphoric, honeymoon type of love in the beginning. Anyone can have that. That doesn’t take much.
In fact, a lot of what fuels that first rush of what we call, falling in love, is not what I’m talking about when I say “optimizing love.” Because to me, in the beginning it’s actually even a little — like, you’ve gotta be suspect of it, because what fuels that kind of romantic first rush of love is a part of our psychology that is intuiting that this person over there is gonna replay my wounding, and they perfectly hit a projection of what is gonna be really hard to work with soon… But right now I’m intuiting that this is a place where I could repeat and/or heal that stuff, so it feels really good to our whole system; we get rush of euphoria that feels so good…
But be very careful, because in the concoction of that romantic love can be deep soul camaraderie and meant-to-be things, and beautiful soulmate type of [unintelligible 00:11:42.11] but it can also just be our wounding reminding us “Oh, here’s a place to either replay and/or heal some of our deepest conditioning, our deepest wounding.”
But when it comes to optimizing love, I’m talking about truly ways of being that get us in that harmonic where love builds over time, intimacy deepens over time… So a simple one of those is like a flavor of healthy — I call it energetic generosity. When we’re in this spirit, we exude a quality of — it’s very simple, and any couple that’s together and is thriving over a long time, you find that the two people in that relationship have energetic generosity. It’s nothing [unintelligible 00:12:38.25] it’s nothing spiritual necessarily… But if you don’t have it, you will find that over time the relationship kind of suffers and tightens, and we get pitted against each other instead of being on the same team. So that’s just one of the ingredients. There’s others that if we can tap in and bring those ways of being in line, things really do optimize over time.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that.
Tobin Zivon: And I have a bunch of tools. I’ve just recently put all my favorite tools into one spot. It’s a video series where it’s just like “Here’s those tools that really get that cooking”, and I’m happy to talk more about them, but I’m also aware that I’m talking a lot already, so I wanna hear your questions and specific guidance on where you wanna go with this.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay, so just to make sure I didn’t miss — so when you said “two steps”, it’s one of the…?
Tobin Zivon: Yes. The first step is optimize the good stuff. Learn to get in alignment with these ways of being that by their very nature will enhance love, intimacy, connection, care, sweetness, all that good stuff.
The second step of the dance that we need, that most people need – there’s very, very few (we call them the lucky lottery winners) who don’t need this second step, which is alchemize, work with and heal skillfully the parts of us that block us from being able to live in healthy ways on the first side. So it’s like our conditioning, our wounding; Eckhart Tolle calls it our pain body. It’s the part of us that gets contracted and locked into repetitive patterns of pain and frustration in our relationships. And those are powerful forces…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Oh, yeah…!
Tobin Zivon: So just to be armed with the skillful means, the tools of how to be with that, work with that, and actually get at the roots of that in ourselves and in the relationship dynamic that we’re in is the second step.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I’m so glad you named that, because when you were talking about the first step, I’m like, even in myself I recognize what I had to work with to heal and acknowledge and do the workaround for me to genuinely get into that authentic generosity. Not that it wasn’t there, but it felt like it was clouded and blocked, like you’re saying, by my fear.
Tobin Zivon: Exactly, Jessica. That’s it. And that’s how it is for every human I know. I mean, there are these few — like, I just did this class in San Diego and there was a bunch of couples, 90% of them in there, and there were these two couples who were just like “Well, we don’t do any of that.” I’m like “Well, just be grateful. You’re the lucky lottery winners, but the rest of us got this thing going on”, and it is cloudy. And you start to get that there’s these two channels of your being. There’s that — I call it the essence channel, what you’ve just said… It’s in there, my generous heart, my empowered, clear, regal sense of self, that kind of knows what my truth is, but still has a capacity to lovingly be with another person in that, and it’s just so beautiful and good…
And then there’s this other weird, cloud, sticky stuff that for some reason kind of just grabs me by the jugular inside and pulls me off of that, and makes it very challenging in moments to stay in that regal, caring, alive, kind, healthy place in myself, that I know would otherwise exist if I weren’t being triggered.
Now, most people are like “Well, if he/she over there would just stop doing *fill in the blank*, I could stay in that clear place all the time.” And of course, that’s true if we lived in a different universe, on a different planet, and everybody was all enlightened; it would make it a lot easier to stay in our essence channel and stay in that loving space. But the way it works – once we get conscious, we start to realize “Wow, the roots of that are in me. I need to take responsibility for my part in this dance, and work on it, and heal it, and alchemize it, and then bring that into the relational dynamic such that things can loosen. The power of those sticky things can loosen, and the power of that good stuff can just take over.
I use this word “optimize” because it doesn’t make it like “perfect”, but it does miraculously and beautifully — kind of the laws of how love and intimacy works is when we are living in this way, then those beautiful potentials are experienced and lived; those potentials, like I said earlier, I think we all intuit, like “Wow, it could be really good, and that love can really deepen over time.” When I see that in a couple I meet, or I see it in a movie, I go “Yeah, that’s what I want.”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: It resonates, and we know the potentiality that’s there, and even — you know, we’re talking about the spiritual experience in being in communities that really facilitate this warmth… But there is the term “spiritual bypass” where it’s like “I’m gonna just go meditate and shift my focus”, and I think there is a value in that for sure, but if we’re bypassing the work that exists in relationship and where we’re getting confronted… And just for me, a lot of it had to do with my felt experience, my lived experience, and having had trauma or having had fear, and loss, and abandonment and all this stuff – that’s in my tissues, that’s in my nervous system, my relational imprint…
So I find that to be true with other — you know, when I work with clients and people, that I have a lot of compassion, because this is like your history, this is your understanding… And even though you have another understanding around what’s possible, we can’t just bypass that. There is healing and growth there.
Tobin Zivon: That’s exactly right. Amen. And that’s a beautiful description of the second step. We lovingly and skillfully start to meet these pockets of — call it whatever you want… But it does boil down to different traumas, and imprints from, at the very least, this childhood, maybe even past lives, the theories are… But it’s deep, and it’s a vulnerable, tender terrain. And learning to be with that, and live into that, and no bypass that, is the path to a true kind of — I often use this word “alchemy”, because we actually are changed, we’re actually transformed from the inside out when we meet these pockets of challenge well… And then we are liberated from the power of it and we have a capacity to show up more in alignment with our essence self, our healthy, whole aspect of our being gets to be in the driver’s seat more and more and more… And round and round it goes, you know? [laughter]
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Great. Thank you, thank you for that… Because I feel like when there’s a certain understanding and commitment to the practice, it can be easy to project (people listening) around like “Oh, that must be nice, you have it all dialed in”, and I tell people “I am on this path with you. When I get afraid, or feel hurt, or whatever it is, my knees shake like everyone else’s; I just have a little more belief that if I do the work — I’ve been around the block enough to know that my old patterns don’t work, and I’m very aware of what results from me leaning in… And it’s incredibly vulnerable, and painful, and terrifying…
But I also love that you’re so passionate and such a voice for having done this work, and the various lineages of knowledge, and theories, and disciplines that you’re integrating to provide the guidance that you’re offering people. But you actually have lived this, and I love that there’s voice…
Tobin Zivon: Yeah, exactly. At this point – and I say this to people – thank God it’s not just theory anymore. I went on the theory because the people who were imparting it to me seemed like they knew what they were talking about, and intuitively it felt right… I didn’t know what else to do. I would kind of go a little crazy if I didn’t work with this stuff deeply, so I just freaking throw myself into that culture, and I’m devoted, willingness to be with and work with it… And it’s kind of like you’re saying, what’s most important is that you – I use this phrase, “You put yourself in the seat.” You put yourself in that committed, devoted, willingness to work well, and get support and find that nuanced, personalized… Because for each person, that’s gonna look a little different what it means to work with this.
There’s some similarities, and maybe we’ll get into the specifics, like practices of how we alchemize this stuff, and work with the dynamics, both in ourselves and in the relational field… But then there’s that living of it, and that’s what I’ve found – you just get committed to that, get devoted to that. Do that to the best of your abilities, and then luckily, apply sincerely enough and well enough, and for a period of time enough, and then you wake up and your life is completely different. I get to be here, humbly saying, that’s what happens, thank God.
The life I live now is just dramatically different in the direction of better than it used to be. I’ve been called a billionaire in love, and I really like that phrase, because my life is sort of [unintelligible 00:22:58.00] in a sea of care, and love, and true allyship, and beauty, and intimacy… It just is miraculously better. So I do love to impart that authentic hope to people, that this is real, this really works, even though yes, the terrain can be a little delicate and tricky, and overwhelmingly daunting for some of us some of the time, and I’ve been one of those guys, like “Whoa, this really does kind of cook you…”
And yeah, there’s just like some overarching beauty and elegance and wisdom to the design of like “Okay, you don’t get to by-pass. Here we are, drawn toward relationships, drawn toward a partner, and building love. And whoops – right there, we bump into these things. And oh, then we feel–” It just becomes this journey through life, that we meet in a certain way, that I hear you describing that – that willingness to meet it like that does luckily blossom us, and blossom our love, and blossom our relationships in ways that we just can’t otherwise do if it’s just spiritual idealism, or theories… It’s like, “Yeah, [unintelligible 00:24:11.24]”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: My mom – she loves Gospel, and she will always say something and she wants me to say “Amen goes right there!”
Tobin Zivon: [laughs] That’s me, I do that a lot, actually. Amen! Hallelujah! [laughs]
Dr. Jessica Higgins: “Amen goes right there!” If nobody’s saying anything, she’s like “Amen goes right there! That’s where you say amen!”
Tobin Zivon: I love it. [laughs]
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, it’s fun. Okay, so you mentioned just some practical tools… What about a couple that is running this repetitive, frustrating pattern, or the power struggle? Let’s start there.
Tobin Zivon: Yeah, so when the rubber hits the road, we’re in a challenging — so there’s levels and levels of challenging moments. You could be in a relationship where overall you feel good, but you keep just having this little trigger, and on a Richter scale, we’ll call that trigger a one or a two on the Richter scale. And then there’s other couples who are just more entrenched, and they’re just having really nasty fights, and really just caught… And the same rules apply, but in different dosages of prescription.
The bottom line across the board that I would just highlight first and foremost is something you alluded to, which is the willingness to be with this charge in your body, and to point the arrows in. No matter how compelling it is to be like “If he/she/that other person would just *fill in the blank* I would feel better.” That’s what the mind does. That’s what our conditioning does. That’s what the contraction in us does when we get triggered and frustrated. It just hurts, and we go in and there’s a contraction. And the mind just basically very quickly is like “He/she/the other, if they would just do it differently, I could feel better.” And that’s the arrows out thing.
At some level, we have to be willing, first and foremost, to just go “Oh, my trigger in my body. What if that was a button? Even though that person seems to be pushing that button, what if that button was in me before I even met this person?” And we take that courageous, heroic moment of pausing, breathing and feeling, into our own – like you were describing, in our soul mind, our being; in your chest, your belly, your face, your arms, there’s a tightness, a heat… And if you have the capacity to first and foremost meet that with loving awareness, a willingness to feel, we’re starting to drive a wedge into, and actually in that moment, in any moment, any millisecond that we are feeling, as opposed to letting it run the show or stuffing it down and pretending it doesn’t exist – then we are actually doing that alchemy, we’re actually healing a part of our being that was imprinted from before this person who’s in front of us, who we can just be 100% convinced it’s all their fault… Well, maybe. Maybe they’re playing their part perfectly to reconnect this to something in us, that we are here to heal through loving, skillful awareness.
So that becomes foundational in that second step alchemy dance – feel, feel, be with… I call it eating a red, hot coal, because it’s really the hardest prescription in the world. This isn’t the fun part, diving into the more challenging part… But that’s a fundamental starting point – feel it in the body, breathe, take those deep breaths, and at the very least, have that be a circuit breaker from the automatic reflex of what our conditioning body does, which is you stuff it down and push it away and get hard… Or act out of it, fully-identified with belief that it’s all the other person’s fault and they need to change, and that kind of fixated, crystallized, outward focus. Those will just keep us entrenched and stuck.
And as much as it seems like that’s what we need to do to get this dynamic to shift, it’s kind of like — I use this analogy of the Chinese finger handcuffs; you know those things you stick your fingers in, and the more you try to pull out in a very quick, knee-jerk way, the more stuck you are in those things… And that’s kind of how relationship dynamics are – the more we do our part, no matter how justified it feels, if we’re doing it from that contracted, automatic reaction place inside, then we are keeping ourselves stuck in that Chinese handcuff, and in fact we’re drawing out of the other person more… It’s just the way the laws of our psyches work; more of what we don’t want them to be doing. It just kind of tends to work that way.
So to be able to feel, to breathe, to pause, to soften, to work lovingly with that charge in the body – I call it the conditioned channel of our being… Eckhart Tolle, again, calls it the pain body. It’s just react, identify, believe, try to fix, or stuff down in some really hardened way.
Instead, we have this capacity and this courageous willingness to feel, feel the burn, feel the reaction in our body, breathe in that direction… I then encourage people to look for what I call the tender underbelly in that reaction. Underneath every tide, or aggressive, or angry, frustrated moment is a tender, vulnerable, scared or hurting part of us, that if we in that moment of willingness to feel, breathe, pause and go this way, instead of automatic, pain body reaction, we’re going to breathe, feel, pause, aim for the tender underbelly… Actually listen for it. “What does my tender underbelly feel like? What would it say if it were in the driver’s seat?” Then we are more than halfway home in terms of both healing our inner imprinting, and finding a more skillful response, and a more healthy way of then engaging in the interaction with the other person.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Tobin, I’m listening to you and I’m like “Yes, this is such a great articulation!” I really am appreciating your language… And I also just am thinking about what you initially said about the romance phase, and how to perhaps not get sucked into that or be tempted to think that that’s the deep, authentic love… And I’m even thinking with this trigger that you’re describing – to not be tempted to follow the arrow… I’m getting this blinking arrow, like “That way, that way, that way…!”
Tobin Zivon: Yeah…! [laughs]
Dr. Jessica Higgins: So the impulse is that reactive, just automatic (like you’re saying) impulse… And really the invitation here is to not get sucked into that unconscious patterning and to pause. The other thing I love is just this deepening and this really warmth, but listening for (again) that deeper underbelly. I love that. Because so often I think “Okay, yes, that’s secondary, that’s surface. What’s underneath that?” And when I journal, and I’m like… Even me, I’ve been practicing this stuff for so long, and I feel really good about where my husband and I are at and the love, but there’s times where I’ll get triggered and I’m like — if I journal, I’m like “He this, he that! This, that…!” And I finally get to “Oh, I’m scared” or “Oh, this…”
Tobin Zivon: That’s it, that’s it…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: So just that knowing and that listening for… It’s almost as if to not get sucked into — I don’t know how to articulate this… But not to get sucked into that temptation… But it’s almost like we have to have this other part of us that believes there’s a deeper truth, or there’s a deeper understanding. That can be hard, because you said we get over-identified…
Tobin Zivon: Yeah.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Can you speak about how you guide people to–
Tobin Zivon: It is the hardest thing in the world, let’s just start there… This is the hardest stuff in the world. And in both direction. Like you’re saying, in that euphoric, romantic honeymoon moment, that force that has taken over your psyche is truly like — you know, I’ve talked to people who are just like “This is my soulmate. We’re gonna get married, even though we’ve only known each other two months…” It’s like 100%, they’re convinced the end-all-be-all of existence has been found… And in the same way, when you’re triggered, especially past a two or three on that Richter scale, what takes over your mind, your brain, your eyeballs, your vocal cords – every bit of you is just consumed with an experience of “I know what’s true, which is that person’s wrong, and they should be different than they are, and then it would all be better.” It’s a very, very compelling force in our system. It’s like being taken over by an entity, a hypnotic force from within that is so powerful and compelling… And I like what you’re saying, we do have to have at least some part of us, some little foot, and hopefully more and more of us gets established in a place where we get that there’s a deeper true impulse that we wanna be looking for and aligning ourselves with, and living from, than those reactive forces.
Now, it takes kind of like a devotion, like a bloodhound who sniffs out the different vibrations. I like that you brought in the word “impulse.” This reactive impulse, this triggered impulse, or this very euphoric impulse, the in-love impulse. You watch people int the beginning of relationships – you do things you would never otherwise do. Now, some of those are very worth doing; I’m not saying “Don’t enjoy the honeymoon.” I’m just saying have some bit of you that’s like “Hey, I’m gonna anchor down in to hit this deeper listening, this commitment to feeling for, looking for, listening for, and actually doing my best to live according to a deeper impulse, a place inside that is grounded, healthy, mature”, whatever word you wanna use.
The words are secondary to a feeling tone of like “Whoa, there’s that healthy part of me. There’s that clear, deep, healthy aspect of my being.” I call it my regal essence self. It’s deep, and it has a different vibration than those other two impulses, that are conditioned impulses. They’re quick, they’re intense, they’re justified, they’re usually a little bit like “Push all reason aside, because i know for sure” and there’s a vibration of tightness, and intensity and push, and force. And we start to get suspect of that; usually, it takes a lot of living to get to this point where you’re like “Those are suspect. Those do keep delivering me into something that doesn’t feel so good later.” So now I have that deep foot of commitment established, and a willingness to at the very least do this work of pause, feel, listen for a deeper, more healthy impulse, and do my absolute best to live from that. That’s our job, every step of the way.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. When you were talking, the word that was coming up for me is “instinctual.” My flex response, or [unintelligible 00:36:55.09] I was just listening to Susan Johnson’s Love Sense, and she was talking about a research exercise or project for this… And I can’t remember actually the name, but this researcher was trying to stand in front of a very solid glass case, where a big python or some major snake was gonna — and he would lock eyes with the snake, and the snake would lash out and try to attack… And he was trying to make him — as much as he prepared himself, he couldn’t make himself not reflex, or not flinch… So when you’re talking about this, it’s almost like, no thinking, just instinctual, when we’re in that triggered place.
Tobin Zivon: Reactive, exactly. And it is that powerful. And yet, something in us – I call it our essence, or our wholeness, or our soul, our true self, or whatever you wanna call it – is even stronger than that stuff. And it can start to build a stronger, in-the-driver’s-seat – I use the word devotion – to at the very least not letting that quick, reactive, just habitual stuff… As compelling as it is, it’s in your whole nervous system, it’s in your mind; you just feel this like “Of course, I have to do the same thing, again and again.” And something in you starts to go “Whoa, let’s–” I call it “reining in the hundred horses” in my book. It’s like this pit-bull, you put a steak in front of it. You have to actually be like “Nope, not going for the steak. No, a hundred horses. We’re just holding you in here, and we’re feeling, and feeling and feeling.” And then that’s the switching of the channels.
From that reactive, conditioned, pain body channel, which is so compelling – it does take massive amounts of courage, willingness, and a kind of awareness, like “That’s not working. That’s not serving my life anymore, so I’m gonna try this other thing. As difficult as it is, I’m gonna go for it with all I have.” So you breathe it in, you just don’t let the reaction — and again, this isn’t stuffing it down, this isn’t by-passing, this isn’t pretending you don’t have those. It’s instead sitting there like — I use this analogy of like James Bond on a mission; when he’s going for a mission, he might get electrocuted 50 times, or a car might hit him, or whatever, but he’s just like “Ugh… Okay, I feel it, I feel it, I feel it.”
And again, this is a sweet spot. We’re not looking to be James Bond in some shut-down way, but it’s like being a superhero of your own life journey, so that you’re being willing to feel the power of this stuff and switch channels into that place that has the capacity to be resilient with that, feel it, go to the vulnerable underbelly and start acting in more skillful ways.
And you don’t have to throw out the baby with the bath water. If that person over there is doing things that really aren’t healthy for you, then you really do need to communicate and invite them into a better dance with you, or whatever it is. You still get to be healthy in that interaction with that person. You still get to, at some point, once you’re more sourced, connected to the deeper beingness and the part of you that has the capacity to be more actually healthy, loving and empowered, and skillful, then you enter into a connection “Hey, when this happens, I’m shutting down. I don’t know if I can be here and keep doing A, B and C. I really, really, from the depth of my heart, am asking you to look at that and change that, or else I might not be able to open my heart in this connection anymore. I’m gonna need to do A, B or C. Or can we get some support for this? Because we keep going around it, and I’m aware that when I do my contraction thing, that triggers yours, and I’m just ready for that whole thing to stop.
So you can, after you’ve done step one of the alchemy, which is pause, feel, just not let that reactive, habitual, instinctual thing that you’re describing take over, because you just know that’s just keeping me in those Chinese finger handcuffs. And in fact, the more I try to pull out in that same way, or try to get this thing to change from that reaction, it’s like razorblades start growing on the inside of those things… And it hurts me, and it hurts this person. I’ve just gotta stop. Okay, I do that… And then you get willing to eat that red, hot coal, and alchemize the imprint, and you start to have at least some big meta-awareness. “Wow, that was in me before I even met this person.” That’s a big, awakened, conscious, but it’s always true.
Literally, 100% of the time, if you’re that triggered and you’re not just walking away from somebody doing something that you don’t like, you have a button in you that was there before you met that person. And that person is in your field as a — you know, one of the teachers I worked with, he would call it a messenger; he’s there to help you reaccess that place inside, so you can feel it to heal it, and then you become a more empowered, healthy version of yourself, and a more evolved version, a more empowered, healthy version of yourself.
So you just start to, at the very least, hold that meta-awareness and try this as an experiment… And then of course, the second part of that is you do show up in a healthy, empowered way. It doesn’t mean you become a doormat who just always eats your red, hot coal, and let everybody do whatever they do. You still have to “Hey, honey, this — let’s try something new. This is what my heart feels. Can you tell me what your heart feels?” And this is the stuff that I then get into, and those tools, and I get into it when I work with couples, is “How do I really, in a more and more masterful way start doing these dance steps?”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. So let’s pause there really quickly, because there’s something you’re staying in the step two – the James Bond, it’s being that committed to uncovering or even connecting with that deeper underbelly… And I also love that you’re really commenting on this inner place of love that exists with all of us, and that the more we can connect with that, the more — and I work with clients around what it feels like. Like you’re talking, a lot about what the imprint of the pain body or the reactive pattern, what that feels like… And when we start getting enough experience around connecting with that deep underbelly – that’s a different sensation. And once we can start to recognize the difference, we can be in service of that.
I know our time is limited, so I wanna give people an opportunity to have a story, if you will, or an example around — because you also said, which I really think is true, when we are in this reactive state, it actually escalates, it encourages almost our partner to get defensive, or attack back… So that does lend to these really frustrating, repetitive patterns or power struggles. But what you’re really speaking to is if we can eat that red, hot coal, and where we can come from is such a different vibration, that we’re in a much better position to practice and come from a different place… Because I’ve seen people try to white-knuckle these tools, but if they’re not actually doing the work internally, they’re still almost defended, and are almost like half there… Like “I’m gonna walk it…”, but energetically, the vibration – I haven’t actually come into my heart and come into my being, so I can be with you. It’s more like “I’m gonna go through that exercise of doing this…”
Tobin Zivon: Yes, Jessica…! Thank you for highlighting that. It is such a key thing! And I just had a big debate on Facebook around this, because I said — a lot of the people I know who are doing non-violent communication, or learn these tools, they’re doing just that; they’re doing the right formula, they’re white-knuckling it, they say the right words, but the tension patterns in their being are still one of defense, of rightness, of imposing something on the other, as opposed to letting their truth come out… Like a healthy, vulnerable mist that they allow into the space between them and the other, and it’s coming from a place of more soft wholeness, that is at the very same time holding like “This is my deepest, vulnerable truth, and I really would love such and such to occur, and I might even need it to occur if I’m gonna stay here in a way that stays open with you…” But it’s coming from a vibration of like “I’m looking for love, I’m looking for the way forward that is based in love, and based in a kind of true surrender”, as opposed to an inflicting of that truth on the other. And it really boils down to that vibration that you’re talking about.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, the alchemy – it’s such a different approach around how we’re being with ourselves and what we’re revealing. I think this is how Brené Brown’s contribution in vulnerability is so powerful for her research around where people lean in, and the connection around accessing this deep underbelly, and being able to reveal that – that’s the alchemy that I think we’re so terrified of often in that pain body place…
Tobin Zivon: That’s right, and that’s where the magic can happen, and that’s what everything in our personality is wire up to avoid at all cost, literally. I mean, every problem on planet Earth that has to do with humans boils down to this. And there’s a reason we don’t wanna go there; it does feel vulnerable. And in our conditioning, when we were children, that vulnerability actually meant that we thought we were gonna die a miserable death, and/or kill the people we love. It’s deep in there, so it’s understandable that we keep going around and around in these old, powerful, compelling patterns…
But at some point we get all that, and we get devoted, and we just go in that direction, and we’re like “Oh, there it is…”, and I’m just taking the time, and doing the practices… And we do this in our own solo time, in meditation, we do it in the heat of the moment, to the best of our ability. And we won’t do it perfectly, but you start to build a pathway toward that which is a different vibration. That old one will take over a thousand times, and our job is to catch it, be with it, release it, find our way over into the other vibration a thousand and one times, or probably a million and one before now and when we die… But you start to build this pathway, and as you do that, the relationship around you starts to optimize. It does. It’s kind of magic. And it will bring out whatever is possible for the other person to become, if you really do this well, and show up in this more soft, vulnerable, but paradoxically empowered way.
I’m not saying — again, it’s not doormat, like “I won’t speak my truths, or my needs…” I call them thresholds, or my bottom line truths; I’m still sharing that, but from a place of like — no longer from this mentality of like “I need you to shift to feel better, and I have every right to inflict that on you.” That’s kind of the underlying belief system in that conditioned self. It’s a child self that somehow got pushed down when we were kids, but is coming up now when we’re in a love relationship… And we start to work with it really lovingly and skillfully and diligently, and we find our way into that shifting of vibrations. That’s what I meant by shifting channels; it’s literally like a vibration.
So then that tool you’re using is coming from [unintelligible 00:49:42.12] At some point it just feels like “Ohh… Release…” And then “Hey, here’s my truth. I would love it if such-and-such” or “When you do that, my heart really just gets very scared, and I guess I want to be in this relationship, but my fear is so strong when that happens, that I start to shut down, and the only reason I’m even trying to do that is because I care about us so much. If we could *fill in the blank* then I think we could have a new shot. I’m gonna try this, and I’d love it if you tried that. How does that feel to you?” And then that’s this more like inviting thoughts skillful, [unintelligible 00:50:29.10] if the person really feels that, if they feel your softer, tender underbelly, it actually invites them to soften and be willing to show up in their healthier self.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, yes, yes. Well, before we turn to you and how people can get in touch with you, is there any story that comes to mind, that exemplifies this?
Tobin Zivon: So many, so many. I’m on the frontlines of this all the time with the couples I’m working with… And I think we were alluding to this earlier, it goes round and round, so there’s like a deeper layer, and then you bump into something in your relational dance… But the story that comes to mind for me is I think when I hit — I hit what I call my relationship rock bottom. I was with a person who we did this – I called it the pain body stand-off; my grip and her grip were so perfectly designed… It was like a divine design. Just divinely orchestrated how perfect it was.
And the more I would go into that tight place, the more it would bring out that in her… And no matter what, I couldn’t get her to shift by going into that. And yet my brain, I was just like “I’m being pretty damn awesome. I’m already being conscious. And if she could just *fill in the blank*, it would all get better”, but it was so insidious in my brain, until I finally was just like “Okay, what’s my part in this?”
And I’m actually gonna bring up two, because in this relationship I went in and I did this work, and I became that healthier version of myself, and I just would watch the subtle tendency for that contraction to take over, and the belief system behind it that “She should change. And if she would, then it would all get better, and if she doesn’t, something’s wrong, and I have to force it that way”, instead of like “Stay, stay, stay in myself, stay in my truth.”
In that case, the relationship just — I just found out, she wasn’t willing or able to ever meet me in that, and it was just clear, we’re not aligned. We’re just not aligned. And we both got that “Oh, we’re just trying to get each other to change in ways that we fundamentally aren’t meant to and can’t.” So no matter how strong our love, and how good our sex is, we were meant to release… And we lovingly, and in a mature way, did that. Thank God, you know?
And then in other relationships I’ve seen that same thing occur, and then what it does is it brings out a softening, and like “Oh, we are aligned, and that’s what we’ve been looking for. And in fact, the frustration you had in my direction – the kernel in there was actually something I needed to be listening to.”
In one dance I had, the frustration a person had in my direction was that I was selfish etc. But they were coming at me in a way that was really mean, and righteous, and intense, so I wasn’t able to hear the healthy invitation in there, which was like “Hey, if we’re gonna be in this, I need you to really step it up, and bring your generosity more.” I was like “Oh… Actually, when I look at that, you’re right.” And conversely, the thing I was saying to her, which was “The intensity with which you tell me that is actually not okay. That’s your shadow.”
And then when I could say that in a way that wasn’t just like “Get that off of me!”, and me shutting down and going way to try and get away and defend from that – when I finally was able to just convey, like “Hey, that thing you do when you want me to be different than I am, when it comes with that much venom and intensity, that’s really unhealthy and not okay.” And she could go “Oh, you’re right. And I really need to tell you my truth.” “Beautiful, tell me your truth.”
So we each got this divine — it was like a key in a lock, in the frustration, that helped us both up-level and start to have a much better loving dance from that point forward. So it’s just so beautiful, right?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yaay! Thank you for that. So, so powerful. Okay, so tell us how we can get in touch with what you’re up to and what you’re offering, and this video series of tools…
Tobin Zivon: Thank you, Jessica. You’re so sweet. So the tools, I’m super-excited about. I’ve just put all my best stuff into a video series; it’s got some interviews with other relationship experts, it’s got a workbook… It’s just like “Here. Here’s the stuff I wish I had”, to kind of get me in this dance in the best, on both the optimizing stuff and the working with the tricky stufff. That’s called Relationship Mastery Secrets, and it’s — I’m assuming you put links maybe on the show notes… But it’s Relationship-Mastery-Secrets.com. That has all that stuff, and I just love it. I just want everybody to have this.
So if you’re listening and you’re at all interested, even if the enrollment period is done, because I don’t know when this podcast is gonna come out, but right now it’s open through November… But if you’re listening and you want that stuff, if you’re interested, just reach out to me. You can find me on Facebook under Tobin Zivon; that’s a good place, where I have a whole community of people who are committed to this kind of stuff… And also my website is TobinZivon.com, and those are good channels to start with.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Excellent. I’ll make sure to have all of those links on today’s show notes.
Tobin Zivon: Thank you, Jessica. Really, such a pleasure to talk. We could probably go for hours and hours, and in nuances, and like “But how do we REALLY do it?” Because that’s a real million-dollar question, “How do we really do this? How do we really live it?” And then start to actually feel those massive breakthroughs and those shifts, and where we just bathe in a different experience, where love is just the — it truly does become kind of like… You know, you take these tools far enough — it’s not just like “Oh, we got a little better, and we got through the hard stuff…”
It gets really, really good. It really starts to take things into a deeper and deeper connection with the divine qualities of our spirit and our heart, where love is just more pervasive, and our experience and our lives in general, in every facet of our existence – our friendships, and our work, and all of that… We start to bathe more and more in love. So I just really wanna highlight those potentials and possibilities and why this is so worth doing, you know?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. Excellent. Well, thank you for being a guest on today’s show, and everything you’re offering – it’s such a gift.
Tobin Zivon: Thank you, Jessica. And you too, such a gift. To me this is the cutting edge of all of our lives on planet Earth. No matter how spiritual or not you are, when it comes to relationship, this is the cutting edge, and it’s where the most transformation can occur, it’s where the most shifts can occur, in our personal life, but then in the world at large. Once we learn this stuff, it affects everything; it affects how we are with our kids, and how they grow up, and how things are societally and politically, if we could learn this, all of it… So I just love that you’re really focusing on these dimensions of our lives and how important and fruitful they are.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Thank you.
Tobin Zivon: Beautiful. Thank you.
I hope you have enjoyed today’s episode. Again, 194, “How to alchemize your triggers into insight”, an interview with Tobin Zivon. If you’d like access to today’s show notes, again, you can find them on DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast, and you can find all the episodes there.
Until next time, I hope you take great care.
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