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Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 197, “How to engage in more conscious communication” with Robert MacNaughton. Before we get started, I just wanna appreciate you for making a difference in the world of conscious relationship, becoming more aware and mindful of you and how you’re interacting. And as we increase our awareness and our mindfulness and our skillfulness, we improve the quality of our relationships…

Most notably, what we focus on in the Empowered Relationship Podcast is the intimate relationship of long-term partnership, and that we know as we get more connected and more intimacy and more love and more happiness, and be able to navigate and weather the storms more skillfully and get back to repair and healing more quickly, that we actually become a positive change-maker in the world, whether or not we have children, or extended family, community, that we benefit from these more enriched relationships… So thank you for being on this path, and devoting and investing in this endeavor.

If you would like access to today’s show notes, you can find that on my website, which is DrJessicaHiggins.com click on Podcast, and you can find all the episodes there. The most recent episodes are at the top. Today’s episode is 197, “How to engage in more conscious communication, with Robert MacNaughton. Let’s get started in today’s episode.

Robert MacNaughton is an executive leadership coach and facilitator who teaches about how to skillfully reconcile seemingly contradictory world-views in relationships, organization, and culture. Robert is an authority in the fields of integral business, behavioral development, and experiential education. Robert focuses on supporting leaders with execution strategies, designing work culture, and navigating interpersonal conflict, both personally and professionally.

Robert founded The Integral Center in Boulder, Colorado in association with renowned philosopher Ken Wilber. As its CEO, Robert managed five profit centers and supervised over 100 contractors, teachers, facilitators, and community leaders in over 25 cities globally.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Robert, thank you for joining us today. It’s such a pleasure to have you.

Robert MacNaughton: Yeah, thank you, Jessica. It’s a pleasure to be able to speak with you, and to speak to your listeners.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, and I am excited personally to  have you on the show, because as I have talked to the audience before, listeners know that I used to live in Boulder. I know you ran the Integral Center in Boulder, and have been on your list, and know that you talk a lot about helping people understand conscious relationship, and ways of relating… But I also know you’re up to leading high-level conversations in the way of business, and leadership… So I’m personally excited to have you on the show, and engage in this conversation, but also just excited to share you with listeners.

Is there anything you can say that helps people orient to where you’re at in the world, and kind of where you’re coming from, and your perspective?

Robert MacNaughton: Sure, yeah. I’ll do my best to give a succinct background of where I’ve been. I was raised in Atlanta, Georgia; you know, Southern, traditional, conservative, East Coast, very much like a meritocratic prep school… Lots of traditional values going on back there, which in retrospect was awesome. At the time it was really painful. And as soon as I got out of high school, I hightailed it to Boulder, Colorado, where things were not so traditional… And have been here for the past 20 years, looking for gold. I heard the gold rush was happening  out there, so I’ve been kind of looking for those veins of gold ever since… And found lots of fool’s gold, but I’ve certainly found some real strands of some real goodness, truth and beauty out there.

In that process of coming across amazing teachers, amazing communities, amazing transformational practices and relationships, I eventually stumbled upon this opportunity to open the Integral Center, which is this conscious community center, a secular adult education center, a place where it was primarily a leadership development training company, where we would teach facilitators, and therapists, and coaches how to facilitate a relational space with some new modalities that were very attractive, and that made us very popular… And that allowed us to then have a big community center that had conscious nightlife, and meditation, and a yoga studio, and a venue for emerging teachers to meet the community with.

So as the captain/pastor/patriarchal arrow in the back receiver, I got to learn a lot about what it’s like being in the leadership of a progressive community.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: That’s exciting. That just piques my interest, because in a nutshell even, I was like “Oh, what was that like…?” But I also know that most people who are listening to this podcast are really interested in navigating relationship more skillfully… And one of the things that’s talked about on this show is being more relational, so I’m wondering how you can help listeners understand the perspective you’re coming from in that regard.

Robert MacNaughton: Yeah, for sure. So that was where we really got to help people the most, in my work over the years – it’s very simple, it’s like “How to be a decent human being, how to be civilized”, but also how to not just do the typical small talk; it’s like “Okay, this is how we’re socialized to be. This is what we’re supposed to talk about now, and this is the formula”, and bring much more of the mindfulness that we have access to, and that people are practicing these days… And like “How can how we meet each other as human beings be a place where our mindfulness practice gets to latch in and become radically transformative?” Because when we bring our attention to what’s happening now, and what is it like talking to you here, or on the phone, having this conversation, there’s people that are gonna listen to this recording… And I noticed that even putting my attention on just the basics of what’s happening this moment allows — all of a sudden I’m feeling my body more, I’m aware more of the ways that I’m on autopilot… I have more spaciousness around myself, and I’m naturally now becoming more curious of you, and like what are the listeners thinking right now…

So that’s really the practice that we cultivated and we’re helping facilitators cultivate as well – how can the latent evolutionary potential that’s here in every moment serve how we meet each other every day… And whether that’s in just meeting strangers on the street, or particularly in the higher stake relationships like our professional relationships with our boss, our direct reports, or obviously our personal relationships – where it gets real.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Our significant other… Yes. Well, one of the orienting pieces I too realize I missed the part about integral – I think I have had a couple episodes where I’ve talked about integral theory, but I’m thinking there’s people that maybe don’t even know what that means… Could you round that out? And then I’ll come back to what you’re talking about around the relational space.

Robert MacNaughton: Yes. Integral theory, in a nutshell, is really just a meaning-making system. A map of how to understand what’s going on in the world. What we like to say is that it’s a meta-map, meaning it’s a map of maps. So really, it’s like — the philosopher Ken Wilber, who I got the benefit to work with over the past decade and beyond, did this work of analyzing all of the world’s wisdom traditions: pre-modern, modern, post-modern, around the world… And he really put it all in one table to see what actually makes sense, what actually works, and distilling from that what’s most practical in our lives.

So integral theory is really a toolkit that says “Okay, here’s how people have made it work throughout history, and here’s what’s available to you, whether you knew if was on the menu or not.”

Now, the most notable thing that that integral theory brings to the table that’s different from what you see that’s out there most of the time these days is what developmental psychology has brought to the table, meaning that — we know that as kids we go through stages of development; a two-year-old is very different from a five-year-old, and so on. But what most people don’t know is that we continue to develop even as adults, and that we go through predictable stages of development… Most notably, how we see the world.

I think where most people could see this is that there’s a lot of people in the world who are very much entrenched in a traditional mindset, that seems kind of black and white, and us-versus-them, and fundamentalist in many ways; it’s oftentimes very religious, but anchored in tradition in a way that has a lot of virtue in and of itself… Where lots of other people in the world are more entrenched in the modern worldview, that values scientific insight, that values merit and how becoming better versions of ourselves we can achieve more; that achievement mentality, and that it’s good to build ourselves up to become better, that a lot of people really center their lives around that.

And then in response to that we have the post-modern world, where things are much more defined in “How do we create equity in the world? How do we create equal opportunities and have a more diverse, inclusive world, so that not only can we benefit from the diverse perspectives that are out there, but that the marginalized people in the world can benefit from our evolution as well.”

So all of these three worldviews that I just laid out here – they all have their virtues, their dignities (as I like to say) that they bring to the table, but they also have their disasters, they have their unhealthy expressions… So as integralists, it’s our job to see how these line up in ourselves, how do each of these perspectives show up in our own interpersonal development, but even more importantly, how do we relate to others in this? Is there one area that we’re saying is wrong, and the other being the better one? And ideally, how do we broker between then and benefit from the virtues of all of them. I know I just threw a whole lot out there, but hopefully that landed some…

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, I think it’s really well said, and greatly encapsulated. That’s why I’m so grateful to have you on the show, and just your development, and being able to articulate this so clearly… So for people that are listening, maybe newly exposed to the idea of developmental stages and consciousness, how might you describe in the intra-personal, or inter-personal, or both — because what we’re talking about here is relationship, so how might they be able to identify it in themselves? Or a practical example around how to identify these virtues, and then the disasters, and how it fits in relating with someone that might be having a different orientation or perspective?

Robert MacNaughton: Yeah, of course. One of the places I see that this is most easy to access is if you think about your relationship with your parents… And to the degree that you have an active relationship with your parents these days or not, I always encourage people that study with me to go there as much as you possibly can… Whether that’s even just considering your parents, or going and visiting them, and working that relationship with them. Because even if you fail over and over again, which oftentimes you will, it’s always gonna be an educational experience that’s gonna teach you more about yourself, because this is where you were forged, this is where your psyche first got its shape, so to speak.

And this is incredibly informative of how we relate with ourselves, because there’s always gonna be that mom or dad culture or voice inside of our head, that we’re in various degrees of conscious relationship with. So the more that we can put attention on it, the more it’s conscious, the more we’re aware that “Oh yeah, that’s where I come from. That’s that part of me that I used to rebel against when I first went to college, but now I actually value and hold sweetness in.” Because the more than we’re aware and mindful of how those different parts of us interact in ourselves, the more we’re gonna be able to meet those when we meet people outside of us who represent them.

When your intimate partner is expressing something that shows up as the way your mom, or your dad, or that guy in high school, or however it goes, instead of that being in shadow, unconscious, where you just react [unintelligible 00:14:22.14] you can actually make decisions in that place and see what’s going on there.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: As you’re talking, Robert, I’m so aware that this affects every aspect of our lives. I’ve had some experts on the show recently talking about finances, and this can relate to our financial world, as well as how we relate to our emotions, and pretty much every aspect… Yes?

Robert MacNaughton: Of course, totally. How we do everything in our lives – you can look at it kind of like a line of development. We work with multiple intelligences, and how good of a cook you are is definitely gonna link into how that showed up in your life early on, and how much time and energy you’re putting into it today.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. So a real practical example could even be — I had a psychiatrist as a guest on the show, and she was really breaking down how she helps people get in touch with their emotional world, and be able to name that, and then to be able to articulate that with their significant other… And a little bit ago, Robert, you were talking about the continual process of coming into contact with how we were raised, and — you know, I met my husband at a Ph.D. transpersonal psychology program, and he’s not a psychologist, but we’ve been at this and we’ve been together for like 14 years or something…

So it’s amazing to me what continuing to be curious, and how we are influenced by some of these early experiences, and just continuing to understand the depth of that… And we were both talking about when either one of us are upset, and the value of just even naming it with each other helps create safety. Both of us had the experience where one parent wasn’t particularly great at that… So that’s just one practical example that comes to mind.

If I look at how anger was expressed in my family of origin, or my husband’s family of origin, the way we deal with upset is very different, him and I, but our experience growing up informs how we relate to ourselves and how we relate to each other… And bringing awareness to that has been so helpful, but it’s just an ever-evolving process. I’m trying to bring a practical example of how this might look, and it also (I imagine) ties into what you were starting to talk about, which is helping people have a safe space to inquire about these types of things, and how we relate, and being really present and mindful.

Can you talk a little bit more about that, when maybe somebody — I’m referencing an example where my husband and I were able to talk about it and learn something, but there was a conflict initially… Just to name that – he traditionally will turn away and wanna really go inward, which to some extent some could argue that’s a very traditional, masculine, kind of go-in-the-cave type of thing… But he’s also an introvert, and there’s some things that might inform the benefit of him really processing and turning away, where for me, my inclination is a little more of that wanting to process in relationship.

So that’s been a conflict, and we’ve worked it, and I’m grateful for the place that we’ve arrived… But it continues to kind of show an aspect, so I would love for you to talk about just what people might be faced with when they are coming from a different perspective, and the natural human nature of being at odds and what’s involved in that, and then how you’re helping people navigate these conflicts.

Robert MacNaughton: Yeah, thanks, Jessica. Speaking about what you and your husband navigated there – I think a lot of people can relate with that… And it brings up a really important point, because as we become more aware of how we are as human beings and how we interact with others, there’s often a stage of like “Great, let’s talk about it! Let’s get into it, and we can process all the time!” And then you might find yourself — it’s like “Wow, we haven’t slept at all, because we’ve been processing so much.” And there might be something that’s not even so healthy about that.

I definitely went through that, because I was raised in a place where we didn’t talk about emotions that much. We were totally good at fighting; there was healthy anger, and things like that, that was allowed in my household, but we never got into processing. Nobody was interested in psychology or anything like that where I came from.

So when I came out to Boulder and I landed at [unintelligible 00:19:16.17] and I had the opportunity to become more aware of things, I was all about learning how I tick, and then creating relationships where we could talk about the relationship while we were in the relationship, and that was an incredibly liberating experience for me… Until I hit the kind of natural swing of the pendulum in that direction, where all of a sudden it was like “Oh my god, if we have to go into this again… Like, literally, I know the meaning of ad nauseam now. This is not sustainable.” And certainly, running a community where we were teaching these techniques, I really saw the unhealthy sides of just like — it starts to become an addiction and to chew in on each other.

Of course, we have to acknowledge that there’s the attachment styles as well… One side might be more anxious, one side might be more avoidant, and that has to be figured into the user manual for me, so to speak. And it’s like, we go through relationships and we can start getting data, so that when we go into a new relationship we don’t have to start over.

But I think it’s important to recognize that as a relationship matures, it doesn’t always have to go in and analyze so much. But you start to be — that’s a tool in our toolbox, that when we need to work through a problem, that we have access to that. But we’re not just like still learning it and excited about it; we know that it’s here for a reason, we use it and we know how to put the tool back in the toolbox.

And just to wrap this up, one of my colleagues came up with a really elegant model that we taught at the center for a while. There’s three stages of relationship, the first being just kind of the…

Dr. Jessica Higgins: The honeymoon, the romance…

Robert MacNaughton: Yeah, there’s that, there’s the falling in love, but there’s just the models that we hold each other in. There’s just the roles that are just inherent. It’s just kind of like “You’re my girlfriend, I’m your boyfriend, and this is how we interact with each other based on how society expects us to interact.” In a certain sense, a better example is the bus driver. It’s like, “The bus driver is the role in my life — I get on the bus, I hand him the money, and I go sit down to get me where I need to go.” That’s it.

But a second stage of relationship is where we actually start to bring more mindfulness in and realize that things are more mutable, that we can actually change the relationship; we can actually realize that “Oh, I’m wanting more, and all of a sudden — maybe I wanna ask the bus driver out on a date, and change the definition of this relationship.” That’s where talking about things and being clear about our desires, and making requests, and sharing if something isn’t working for us, and maybe an implicit boundary has been cross – that’s the stage where these things are really relevant.

But then there’s the third stage we graduate into – maybe now I’ve married the bus driver, we’re 20 years forward in our relationship, and that’s where we’re more in a synergistic relationship, where we don’t actually have to process things. Where there’s more of like “I know you so well that I don’t have to check in with you before doing something. I know how to love you, because I know what you want.” So it’s more like passing the basketball behind the back; we just have such a flow in our relationship that it has a natural elegance to it that we’re not getting in and messing with it too much… Just when there’s a bump in a road, we just see that as another season.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that. And I wanna go back and underscore something you’re saying that I think is so, so powerful, because I  do think a lot of people that would be even listening to this podcast do tend to wanna engage more in process… And one of the things I’m also really a support of is just different ways of processing, and even masculine/feminine… And as you’re talking too, there’s a difference between anxiously seeking resolution, when really maybe processing isn’t the best idea at that time, or the best tool to be using… Or perhaps, like you’re describing, there could be this space that could get created if we enter into a little bit more mindful presencing, pause, and I can tell you there’s so much that comes from — and my husband has taught me this, because of his style, and our evolution… There’s so much wisdom in some of that space. Or even not engaging, and what can come from that…

So can you talk a little bit more about how if somebody does have the inclination, or even the opinion or the judgment that engaging and process is the best style? Because the other thing you’re showing in this developmental process too, I imagine, is there’s a level of security and co-creation that comes from developing, and that there’s some things that we can cultivate that don’t have that same need of process.

Robert MacNaughton: That’s right. One of the principles that I hold very highly in my life, Jessica, is impeccability, and that we’re always on a course of development, and that it’s my choice that I want to become better at the things that I do in my life, and especially to the degree that I’m impacting others.

So when it comes towards relationship practices, and how we meet each other in these tender places where we’ve been traumatized in the past, and all these things, it’s get as good as we can about how we show up in those places, and be clean about it.

How I work on this with people that are maybe getting stuck in processing loops, or blaming each other for either processing too much, or not enough, or things like that… This is what happens in communities where you teach people how to talk.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Exactly… [laughs]

Robert MacNaughton: It’s like, set context for these things. I love the concept of the date night, in that there’s all the romantic practices that could go along the date night, but there’s also the house cleaning that can happen on something like a date night… Where it’s like, we know once a week this is the time where we load up our agenda list with this stuff where you kind of lost some points in my eyes, and I need to check in with you on this… Or I need to make a request that’s a little more uncomfortable, and I  frankly don’t wanna have to be sitting on a discomfort about making a request while I’m going through my week… There’s actually a good space for that.

I would be coaching my executive clients who are dealing with the high-paced startup world in the same way – there’s gotta be a context in the schedule where you can do the dirty cleaning, and take care of that business… And it has a beginning, a middle and an end. You know how it starts, and you know it’s gonna come to an end. If it’s an untrusted system where at any given moment the conversation could steer — you know, we were watching Netflix and all of a sudden  I feel the energy coming in, and then we’re trapped in this thing, and I’m not gonna sleep tonight, and all of that. It’s like, that’s not gonna work. So it’s like, bring the cleanliness of integrity, of having a context that we can trust, that we can have a tool in our toolbox, so we don’t err too much on one side or the other.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I like that. And how do you typically help people create this context? …because I know there’s a lot of different systems, but I’m just curious where you come from in this regard.

Robert MacNaughton: Yeah, so the main thing we teach in our trainings is the art and science of setting context. That means if anything is worth doing, it’s worth doing right – that’s what one of my teachers taught me.

I teach facilitators a lot, and the main thing I teach facilitators is you need to spend an ample amount of time saying what you’re gonna do, how you’re gonna do it, why you’re doing it. Make sure you get that buy-in, and make sure it’s clear and transparent, so that way you can facilitate in relationship to that and then complete it. And that makes for clean facilitation, so that we’re not doing more damage to people in our lives, we’re actually being above board.

Similarly, if I find that I’m in an unconscious pattern or something is trending towards more conscious of a pattern in my intimate relationship, ideally I want to recognize that and then speak to it first. It’s like, “Okay, so it seems like I’ve got that thing going on that we’ve talked before, where I feel like I’m judging you right now, and I want you to be different. So can you put up with me for the next 30 minutes while I talk about this thing? And then after 30 minutes we’ll be done with it.” That would be like a nascent version of just having the courage to speak what’s going on, asking for consent, and then taking responsibility for wrapping it up.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I like that, because you’re really even acknowledging there are going to be times where you’re in process, and perhaps you don’t have a clear intention or result that you’re looking for… Whereas in your earlier example  you might have something you wanna clear, and you have a real clear intention around like “I’d like to be able to have a time where we talk about our financial standing”, and there’s like  a real clear request, like you’re saying, or a boundary… And then sometimes it’s just “I would love 20-30 minutes to just talk about what’s going on for me, and then I will put a limit on that, and can you say yes to being present to that?”

Robert MacNaughton: Right. I often say, “Be on the lookout for your canaries in the coal mine.” Back with the coal miners, they had to have a canary down there, so that if the air was getting unhealthy, the bird would die first, and that was the signal to get out of there. So in our lives, it’s like if we have — whether it’s our anger tendency, or our avoidance tendency, our aloofness, whatever our shtick is when we start to become our version of an asshole… It’s like, be on the lookout for what’s the early signs of how that’s showing up. It’s like, “I’m noticing the tone of my voice… I’m starting to do the thing.”

So then you can program in, “How do I wanna be when that’s coming on?” That’s when I wanna take a step back, take a breath, and then maybe set context in that space… Or choose, like “No, we’re not gonna go here. We’re with your family for the holidays, so I’m not gonna do that thing right now. I’m gonna take care of it over here in a different way.” And work with my coach or my therapist and find new solutions for how to manage these ways, so they’re not disrupting the secure attachment of our relationship.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay, so you’re saying some good things here… So in the sense of being aware of tendencies, being aware of maybe even when one is being conscious, or maybe not being very conscious, and knowing some indicators for that… And then also, are you saying that there could be a buffet of options of context around — you know, there could be a clear intention, or a clear request, or a boundary, or even just process time… But there’s an understanding of the context – is that how you’re describing it?

Robert MacNaughton: Yeah, definitely. Whenever something isn’t working, then it’s kind of asking to be broken open and taken a look at, and look at the constituent parts and see how we can address these things… And in a lot of cases – I definitely see this a lot in communities like ours, where people are studying these ways of being, are becoming a professional coach or a therapist in various ways, and it’s really slippery that that’s gonna get into your relationship… And that can be really great, to have a mindful relationship, but all of a sudden if you’re relying on your partner for your therapy, you can start to see the unhealthy externalities of that… Like, “Yeah, I’m not getting enough sleep”, or “I’m relying on you in a co-dependent way to assuage this thing that happens to me, where instead I might have my close bros in my life, who I go to and have my thing with once every other week, and vent, so that I don’t have to do that to you.” And similarly, having a professional relationship.

So it’s just a healthy compartmentalization, that is a natural part of just what we do as evolving adults. We get better and more elegant at these things. We just have to know when it’s time to put more energy, and take care and clean up an area of our life to make it more impeccable.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that that, the impeccability and the self-awareness, because [unintelligible 00:32:07.19] there’s the impulse, and the reaction, and just launching right into it without even understanding what’s going on, or why, or anything about my own experience… So I love that call.

Robert MacNaughton: It’s just like addiction, just like any other thing. People might let alcohol or something just take up more space in their life than they should, and then they have to reel that in. It can be the same thing in unhealthy, co-dependent patterns. Everybody has gone through versions of this, where you just kind of naturally slide into this behavioral dynamic with your partner, and then all of a sudden you’re like “I don’t think we’re a good relationship anymore.” It’s like, “Well, first you might just wanna see if you change up some of your patterns first”, which isn’t always easy; it definitely takes work… But that’s where it’s like “Okay, if I’m gonna be in a relationship in this life, and if I’m gonna bring family into the world, and I wanna make a contribution to the world in that way”, then it’s worth bringing our best to, and looking at the ways that we’re undermining that in the process.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And so many people talk about in conflicts where it might even be a power struggle, the inclination is always (or often) in the earlier stages to project, or blame, or criticize, and say “If you would be X, Y and Z, we wouldn’t have this problem”, and largely what you’re mentioning here is this integrity and self-impeccability of really looking at oneself, and the self-awareness to recognize what my tendency is and how I might be participating in this?

Robert MacNaughton: For sure. One of the things we like to teach about is called 200% responsibility in a relationship. It’s because there’s always gonna be times when one of us is less resourced than the other. And those are those times where we get entrenched into an argument, and we’re both on our guns and we’re not gonna let down… And really, the person who wins the argument is the person who loses first, who chooses to lose, and just say “You’re right.” And that’s really the high road, because when we’re under-resourced, we don’t have actually enough extra energy to take on the other perspective. And sometimes we just need a win, you know? We just need to be right. “Can’t you just say that I’m right, even if I’m wrong?” So that’s an incredibly loving thing, that people that have been in relationships for a really long time know – you have to just give it to them sometimes.

And beyond that, taking 200% responsibility in a relationship is really like looking beyond my own needs right now, and saying “What does my partner need in this space? Where are they coming from? How can I speak in a way that allows them to feel grounded and resourced in this? And actually, it’s not that hard for me just to put down my guns and to take care of business… And I’ll take out the trash, too.”

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, I like that. Well, I recognize we could talk for extended periods of time, but I’m wondering if there’s anything else you wanna reference as far as relationship, relating, and some of the place that we’ve talked about today.

Robert MacNaughton: Yeah, I I mean… It’s like diet – everybody has an opinion on it, and no one’s totally right or wrong. So I’m reticent to be too prescriptive, and certainly I have my own challenges… But I just think it’s a courageous path to be a human being in the world, especially in relationship with others. So to the degree that you’re getting out of bed in the morning, you’re getting out of the house and even engaging with other people, it’s like, you’re courageous. And if you’re actually willing to open yourself to the point of letting a person in to see the flawed, beautiful human being you are, then that’s one of the most courageous things I think I can possibly imagine that’s out there… So bravo! And don’t take on any one model more than it needs to be taken on. Just know that you’re going for it and that’s beautiful; get all the help that you can get and be really clear why you’re doing it. And I wish you the best.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Awesome. Well, thank you. And for people that wanna get to know what you’re up to and engage with your teachings and work, what would you recommend?

Robert MacNaughton: Yeah, so I’m hiding out a little bit. I’m kind of recovering from my days of leading the Integral Center, but I still am interacting with the world some, and I do my flagship weekend intensive workshop. It’s called Alethia, and it’s what we call Integral Circling intensive, for people who really want an upgrade in their relational intelligence, and just really see their tick in connection with others. We have this powerful modality that’s very simple and profound.

I’ve been doing that periodically in Boulder and in a  few other cities this year… So if you go to my website, which is IntegralCentered.com, then there’s information on that. And my primary work these days – I’m an executive leadership development coach for fast-growth executives… So if you work for a company, you’re an executive and you’re looking to level up, and you see that people management problems are gonna hold  you back from going where you wanna go, you can contact me that way. I work for a firm called Neuberg, Gore & Associates. We’ve been doing this for about a decade, so it shouldn’t be hard to find contact information on that from my website as well.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Oh, so the executive coaching can be accessed from your IntegralCentered.com website as well?

Robert MacNaughton: Yes, for sure.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay. And then the retreat/workshop as well.

Robert MacNaughton: Yes.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay.

Robert MacNaughton: I have other online courses and things that [unintelligible 00:38:16.13] but it should all be able to be found there.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Wonderful. Well, I definitely know there’s a lot of listeners that will be interested in at least one, or maybe even both of those, and I just know that anybody — even all the clients that I have, that are in high-level positions, and how to manage people that they’re working with… It’s definitely a lot that they’re negotiating, so I think being really skilled in this way is such a huge asset, and I can’t even state that enough.

I’m grateful for what you’re doing in the world, and helping really elevate people. So much of how we’re interacting with each other creates not only our communities, but our culture at large… And I just really appreciate the impact you’re having.

Robert MacNaughton: Thanks so much, Jessica. This has been a pleasure to talk with you and to get to express what I’ve learned and share what I’ve got… So thank you for your work, of putting these things out there to help people have more courage along the way.

I hope you have enjoyed today’s interview. Again, we got to have a conversation with Robert, and his perspective, and being able to help lead people in developing more conscious communication skills. I hope that you’ve been able to recognize maybe a couple steps that you might be able to integrate into your life and your practice.

If you’re interested in accessing today’s show notes and some of the links that have been mentioned, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast, and then you can locate today’s episode, 197, “How to engage in more conscious communication, with Robert MacNaughton.”

On that website you can also find other resources, one of which I have had a lot of people reach out to get support around, and that’s in the way of criticism. I just released a new version of the guide and I’m really happy with how it turned out. It provides a lot of languaging and a lot of support around how to shift out of that critical orientation, and into a more constructive way of relating, again, in the theme of conscious communication. So if you like that resource, I encourage you to visit DrJessicaHiggins.com and you can find more about that there. You can simply search “criticism” and you will find articles, podcasts on the topic of criticism, shifting criticism, and you will find an opportunity to access that guide, titled “Shifting criticism for connected communication.”

Until next time, I hope you take great care.

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