Return To Show Notes

Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 203. We are discussing the film Ordinary Love with filmmakers Lisa Barros D’Sa and Glenn Leyburn. Before we get started, I just wanna take a moment and center in the intention of the Empowered Relationship podcast. As I do so, I wanna invite you to just get clear perhaps on your intention of where you’re at as you’re exploring the topic of intimacy and long-term partnership, the quality of your connection with your loved one.

The intention of the Empowered Relationship podcast is for you to feel supported and more prepared as you cultivate your intimacy, your connection with your significant other. The topics, the suggestions, the interviews – all are in support of you considering and contemplating the terrain of long-lasting intimacy, knowing we may be challenged at times both in expanding our capacity for love, joy, happiness, and also in hardship, in pain, difficulty, sometimes threat, and then security.

The interesting thing here is that as we nurture our connection with our significant other, the same connection, the same relationship and bond also can provide comfort, soothing and reassurance to us as we are individually facing challenges… And we’re gonna talk about that a little bit more today.

If you would like access to today’s show notes, you can find that on DrJessicaHiggins.com. Click on Podcast and you can find all the episodes listed there. Again, today’s episode is 203.

Today’s episode is different than the episodes I normally offer, and as their team reached out, I thought it would be a good way to explore some of the topics that we discuss on this show as it’s represented in film. We’re gonna talk about that in a moment with Lisa and Glenn.

Bleecker Street’s Ordinary Love, starring Academy Award® nominees Lesley Manville and Liam Neeson had a critically-acclaimed debut at TIFF, which is a film festival. It hit the theaters on February 14th, and it’s a story that follows an everyday couple with a remarkable love.

The film is directed by Irish filmmaking duo Lisa Barros D’Sa and Glenn Leyburn, who also made the films Good Vibrations and Cherrybomb. The screenplay is from an award-winning playwright, Owen McCafferty. Let’s get started in today’s interview.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: So can you tell us a little bit about the film?

Lisa Barros D’Sa: Sure. Ordinary Love is a love story about the small moments and the big challenges that go to make up the journey of a long-term relationship. It stars Liam Neeson and Lesley Manville as a couple who have gone through a million ordinary days and some big challenges together as well. We meet them at a point where they’re about to face one of the biggest challenges of their lives, when Joan is diagnosed with breast cancer.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. When I was watching the film, I recalled so many incidences where couples will tell me (or people will tell me) before something tragic happens, or some trauma, that it’s like any other ordinary day… So that just struck me – the contrast there

What drew you to making this film and drew you to this screenplay?

Lisa Barros D’Sa: I think one of the things that we really loved about this was that it was a really fresh take on a love story. It felt really unique, in a way that explores the kind of relationship that we don’t always see on the screen. It’s not about the beginning of a romance, or the end of it, but what really happens in the heart of it. Moreover, it’s a middle-aged love story; it’s about a couple who have got to this state in their lives, they’re not bored of each other, it’s not a power struggle… They’re really equal. They’re really different, but they’re equal… And they still really enjoy being with each other. They make each other laugh, they fancy each other, they have a really vibrant relationship. That felt so interesting, because that’s the sort of thing that we might see in our life often, but we don’t tend to see it on the screen too much. So it felt like there were some great sentimental insights into that kind of relationship.

We got involved with the story at a very early stage, and it’s a very personal story to the writer Owen McCafferty. It’s based on what happened to him and his wife, Peggy, when she had a similar diagnosis. So it’s got very authentic roots, and we wanted to stay true to just being very human about the way we tell the story.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, I felt the richness of the subtleties and how they play with each other, reach to each other, encourage each other, and I think it’s such an important display. I agree with you, we often don’t get to see that. Glenn, do you want to add anything here?

Glenn Leyburn: Yes, I mean… As Lisa said, we were just struck by how unusual it was. It seems strange to say that this is unusual, to be celebrating the ordinary things in life. So often these things are sensationalized, or made overly sentimental… And that was one of the things that appealed to us, and it was one of the things that we really were firm on, that we wouldn’t allow the story to be pulled in a direction where it’d then become overly melodramatic… And that we would focus on those everyday moments; the poetry of the everyday was something that we wanted to find within the piece… And then celebrate it, celebrate for all the magnificence of the everyday.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that. And you’re probably speaking to this next question, but if there’s anything else that you wanna add in the way of what you’re hoping people will experience in watching the film.

Lisa Barros D’Sa: I think what we want the audience to experience is what we feel about this, which is that it’s a really — it’s got a tough subject matter in it, but it always felt to us like a really uplifting story. Just the way it celebrates the power of this sort of connection, to keep these two people afloat… And cinema is so good at looking at the tiny details of life, and literally magnifying them and revealing them in their own magnificence.

We really wanted with this film to celebrate those details and to say that they are really worthy of being honored on the biggest screens.

Glenn Leyburn: And certainly one of the things that connected with us with the material was the warmth and the humor that was within it as well. I think maybe on the outside you could look at the stories being bleak, but we felt that it was extremely far from that. It did celebrate some of the wonderful things about relationships, and it really did showcase [unintelligible 00:08:54.02] many of us bring to our everyday life, and how we coped with some of the more challenging things in life.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I couldn’t agree more. I  do think when things are stripped down a little bit more, sometimes it helps us access depth that maybe we’re not otherwise connected with, with – like you said – all the sensationalized, in-your-face cinematography… And also, I think this is really beautiful too, because as you were saying, it’s not the beginning, and so often I think we have the representation of the struggle of even landing in relationship, but we don’t always get a greater look at a really established relationship, that’s stable and secure, and the nuances in that. So it’s really beautiful.

Lisa Barros D’Sa: Thank you, yes…

Glenn Leyburn: It’s interesting you mentioned about stripping things back, because that’s certainly something we’ve felt all along, and certainly through pre-production, production and post-production, it was one of those things that actually it felt that the more we [unintelligible 00:10:02.26] the film and the more we brought it to its essential elements, we felt that it gave the film more power… Which is kind of a little bit counter-intuitive, but…

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right.

Glenn Leyburn: …but it actually did.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. I was completely moved by the level of intimacy, not only between the couple, but also the interpersonal, and the views that you guys were able to capture, particularly with Joan looking in the mirror, or the medical scenes where you hear the practitioner or the doctor speaking to her, and just how much that evoked her emotion… And then also the angle that you guys captured with her — I might it might have been the skin… But you had this really beautiful angle from below the machine, and her face, and what she was contemplating… It’s really the intimacy both in the self, and also between the couple. Brilliant job.

Lisa Barros D’Sa: Thank you so much. Actually, that really goes to the heart of what the piece is about, because this is a story about a couple who, as much as they want to go through this journey together, it starts with something that’s happening only in Joan’s body… So she is ultimately on a journey that only she can go on, which is inside herself, because she’s aware of this thing happening inside her… And it’s almost like being connected to a [unintelligible 00:11:28.13] connected to the world of what’s  going on inside your own body… So I think when you’ve got an actor as extraordinary as Lesley Manville, you can tell that story; her face tells you a lot of that story about that journey that’s she’s on, that’s necessarily to an extent a solitary one.

Then, of course, you have these moments where the structure of the story separates them, and brings them back together… And we wanted the audience to feel that joy and relief that the character isn’t real, and we find them together again, and we experience that life force that flows between the two of them. Liam and Lesley were just able to bring that  to life so beautifully, that humor and that spark.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, and I think it’s just one of the things we’re up against in relationship, that we have such a unique, individual journey, however we are sharing it; in some respects, our partner is along the journey with us, but perhaps not in such a most intimate way.

So how about anything that might have surprised you, or something that you saw new in the production and the creation of this film that maybe was unexpected, or you didn’t anticipate?

Lisa Barros D’Sa: I think we have a lot of learning to do during the course of the film about what that journey is really like for somebody. I think just even at the research stage, we talked to people, we talked to Peggy, Owen McCafferty’s wife, about her journey through this year when she was diagnosed. And I think because so many people unfortunately have to go through that kind of journey, we get used to hearing that people are going to chemo… And I think the details of that, and the day-by-day difficulties of that were revelatory to me, certainly… And this sort of respect that one feels for how tough that is to go through… And a lot of people just — I think this is what this story is about, how people just incorporate those things into their everyday normality, and still carry on living kind of rich, happy lives, but with this other element within them… And it just felt like a real testament to how courageous people can be.

I think one of the things that we got to do in this film, which we haven’t got to just because of the subject matter and themes of previous films, was just to really be with these two actors every day, and really work on building their story, their emotional story in-depth. That was a real joy, just to sort of change the pace and to change the way that we worked, and bring it all into focus. For me, that was a real pleasure [unintelligible 00:14:32.15]

Dr. Jessica Higgins: The question comes from just knowing that when I anticipate something or have a vision, and then when I’m in the creative process, some things get revealed that I wouldn’t have known, or are more beautiful than I expected… And then I guess another angle on that is just thinking about Owen and what it was like for him to see this in its final form, because it can be so therapeutic to see our story being acted out… It can be really powerful.

Lisa Barros D’Sa: Sure. You’re absolutely right about the creative process. In film, there are always parameters that you’re up against in terms of time scale, and finances, and with the things that you anticipated being able to create, you might have to do a swift turn-on at the last minute… And sometimes from those moments great things come, as you say.

We had a lovely moment of serendipity, for example, when we found the house that we ended up shooting the film, and we realized that we needed a space that was much bigger than the kind of house these characters would have lived in… And we wanted somewhere that would kind of tell a story about the warmth of their relationship; that it was held in a time that they found hard to leave behind, and would also offer us the opportunity to shoot it through lots of different angles, and create a flow… But we just happened to chance upon this house that felt very different to any house that we had seen previously… And I think we were really so delighted by the way that it became like a character in the film, and it really sort of spoke so much more than we could have hoped about that relationship, and its warmth, and where those characters are at the start of the journey.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I know even the end scene, of the table being set, and the contrast to what had been… Like you said, kind of stuck in this — not necessarily stuck, but representing something that maybe they weren’t ready to move on from… So much there. Glenn, anything you wanna add in this?

Glenn Leyburn: Yeah, I mean… As Lisa said, the house became an important aspect of the storytelling for us. We needed a house that had all those natural materials – the wood, the stone… All that felt warm and welcoming, and it felt like a house that there was love in, and had been love in. It felt like there was enough space — the house was maybe a tiny bit too big for Tom and Joan. And we talked about Debbie, their daughter, and her presence within the house, or even her absence within the house… We talked about how we filmed the house, and how that would almost be at times a spectral point of view, that we were looking at Tom and Joan from a distance at times…

All those things were important, because if you consider how the house looks, and then the journey – that it has become their cocoon, that in a way they’ve taken themselves to the edges of society and they have become everything to each other in a way, and how they emerge from that… And the hospitals, the juxtaposition between those natural materials and the more sparse and spare and cooler palette of the hospitals.

Lisa Barros D’Sa: Talking about new ideas as well, I think it’s really important to mention that these great actors that we were working with, who brought some wonderful texture and detail and great ideas to the scenes… One moment of many is during the scene in the hotel bedroom, where the characters have this very intimate scene, and Liam had this lovely idea that he would add this piece of action which was unwrapping the headscarf from Lesley’s head… That detailed [unintelligible 00:18:48.05] because it was about Tom wanting to just look really intimately at the real person who Joan was in that moment… It was something about that acceptance of where they are now, and the honesty of that long-term relationship that was really made very vivid and beautiful by such moments. Those kind of discoveries and ideas on the set are pretty magical.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: No kidding. And I imagine perhaps even have impact on you… Was there anything that you felt you saw in a new way, or had a new understanding, that impacted you personally around relationship?

Lisa Barros D’Sa: I think so many things, really, during the course of making the film… And I think some of the choices that we came to, that the actors came to about approaching — the sort of [unintelligible 00:19:46.18] certain moments with this really gallant humor that I think Leslie and Liam brought to their characters, for example in the haircutting scene… That felt really vivid. There’s a decision about how they go through life.

Another really beautiful insight in the script and in the story – about how we deal with each other in relationships; that so much of the way the story moved forward is about the things that these characters, even because of (or despite) how intimate they are, rather than sharing everything, they’re trying to protect each other… And in some ways that can isolate them in a way that they wouldn’t feel so  isolated if they were less close at certain moments.

And then also, it’s very true – I think about how if you are so comfortable with somebody and so close to them, that at moments where you should be kind, you can often be hard on that person because of your fear of losing them. That’s something we’ve seen in a couple of scenes… And there was great honesty in that, that felt really — that contains some really interesting insights.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, agreed. Glenn, anything you wanna add?

Glenn Leyburn: I guess one of the things that’s  a real joy for us as filmmakers is the collaboration. That starts with Lisa and I, first of all, and then we bring cast and crew and all those people in together… Collaboration is really important to us, and in a way we look on that as kind of expanding our own family. Those people – we all come together to try and… We have a goal that we’re all pushing towards achieving, and that can be one of the great joys of what we do.

Actual fact – I  think sometimes in a way the making of a film can be just as joyous as actually seeing the end product… And those relationships that you form along the way can be really rewarding and really precious. And actually, lots of people who we have worked with over the years have become incredibly close friends, and people that we practically consider family.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Wow, that’s beautiful… Because it’s also relationship, and how it’s being created and produced, and it can be more synergistic, and the relationships and the bonds that get formed…

Glenn Leyburn: Yes. I actually also partly feel that — and look, different filmmakers have different methods, and some people… I’m sure we’ve all heard about the hostility that there can be on film sets, and how people create a hostile atmosphere… And do you know what? Sometimes those films turn out to be really good films, and are some of the most famous films that have ever been made… But it’s not the way we choose to make films.

I personally believe that what happens behind that camera ends up in front of the camera. Those relationships that we have with the people that we work with, we hope that mutual trust and respect makes a good film.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love it. So in closing —  I think you guys already spoke to this, but is there anything that you’re hoping people will walk away with?

Lisa Barros D’Sa: I think what we really want people to feel when they watch the film is what we feel about it, which is that it is this uplifting story about the power of connection between two people to keep each other afloat. That’s really something that we wanted to celebrate in this, and we hope that’s something that people feel. It’s a complex journey that these characters go through, and I think we also wanna recognize in the storytelling that this kind of journey has different outcomes for different people… But this is the stuff to celebrate in life, that this kind of connection can arise and be maintained even through the toughest of times.

Glenn Leyburn: I agree with what Lisa has to say. That’s exactly what I would hope that people would come away with… See that it’s a celebration of the connections that we have with each other.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, I couldn’t agree more, and in my line of work – just recognizing it’s such a beautiful example of how we can actually make each other stronger, be that source of comfort, refuge and encouragement, even in the toughest of times.

Thank you so much for making the time to share with us your experience in creating this beautiful film, Ordinary Love. I look forward to inviting people to go watch it.

Lisa Barros D’Sa: Thank you so much, Jessica.

Glenn Leyburn: Thank you so much.

Lisa Barros D’Sa: Thanks for having us.

Glenn Leyburn: It was lovely talking to you.

I hope you have enjoyed today’s interview, as we’re taking a different look at relationship and the components of how we weather storms together. I hope you’ll check out the film, and I would love to know what you think about this episode as we’re taking a different spin in accessing  some of these principles.

Again, the filmmakers Lisa and Glenn really highlight the celebration of love and connection and collaboration, as well as the grace and the courage and the intimacy of facing some of these huge life challenges.

Perhaps you may be facing a major life challenge yourself, or know someone that is, and I just wanna  encourage you to reach out for support. Perhaps your network, your community, a support person… As again, one of the big takeaways for me is just how important relationship is and how connection can help us feel reassured, comforted and encouraged as we face huge life challenges.

If you are wanting some extra support in the way of relationship, please visit DrJessicaHiggins.com. There you can find lots of podcasts, articles, and ways to get extra support. Until next time, I hope you take great care.

Return To Show Notes