Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 204, “Lessons learned from Renew Breakup Bootcamp”, an interview with Amy Chan.
Before we get started, I wanna take a moment and pause to center into the intention. As you’re listening, I just want to invite you to connect with perhaps something that is on your mind, or in your heart, that you’re perhaps looking for support around, or guidance in, and just to give space for that, and recognition for that.
I am setting the intention for the Empowered Relationship podcast, and that is that the conversations that happen on this show are in support of you feeling supported, guided in improving the quality of your relationship. This can range from a number of topics, offering skills, exercises, tools and resources for you to consider as you contemplate the journey of developing, cultivating long-lasting intimacy.
If you would like access to today’s show notes, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com click on Podcast, and find all of the episodes listed there. Let’s get started in today’s interview.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Amy Chan is the Founder of Renew Breakup Bootcamp, a retreat that takes a scientific and spiritual approach to healing the heart. She is also the Editor-in-Chief of JustMyType.ca – an online magazine that focuses on the psychology behind love, lust and desire. Marie Claire calls her “A relationship expert whose work is like that of a scientific Carrie Bradshaw” and her company has been featured across national media, including Good Morning America, Vogue, Glamour, Nightline and the front page of The New York Times.
Welcome, Amy. It’s so great to have you on the show today!
Amy Chan: Thanks for having me, Jessica. I’m super-excited!
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, and I am looking forward to hearing your perspective, and that you’re providing such great support for people who are healing from a breakup… But since you have that vantage point and you’re helping people heal from a breakup, but also really learn the skills and the tools and the principles that you’re teaching, to help them have successful relationship. That’s what we’re wanting to get your perspective on today.
Amy Chan: Awesome.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: So if you can just give us a chance to get to know a little bit about your story around what got your interested in this topic…
Amy Chan: Sure. I’ve been writing about relationships for 12 years, and it started off when I was 25 years old, and I was dating a guy who was an artist, and he one day came home after I bought us an apartment and he said “I don’t feel butterflies anymore. I’m not excited. And I love you, but I’m not in love.” My entire idea of what love and commitment meant was completely blown apart.
That was when I decided to start studying relationships, because I noticed that in the other areas of my life, whether it was during school time, excelling with my grades, and then finally climbing the corporate ladder or building a community, I was okay on that. But the one area that I didn’t seem to have any success with was my relationships…
So I started writing and researching about love, and the psychology of lust and attraction because of a break-up. And several years later I started my company, Renew Breakup Bootcamp, because of another breakup, where again, I put so much of my identity into him and a relationship, that when that relationship fell apart, I fell apart… And I decided that I needed to do something with all the pain I was going through and all the lessons that I learned, and put it all together so I could help other people who were going through a similar experience.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that you’re speaking from such authenticity in your own journey, and recognizing so many people struggle with this very thing… My story is similar, and just what got me — coming even from a psychology background, and being confronted with this hardship and conflict in relationship… So – it’s such a gift that you’re bringing your learnings and really packaging it in an experience for people to really begin to do this deeper dive.
So when you’re looking at breakup and what’s involved in that, what are you typically seeing? Because I imagine not all breakups are the same. Can you help us around where you’re coming from?
Amy Chan: Yeah. I guess I’ll pull some examples of what I see a lot with the people who come to Renew Breakup Bootcamp. It’s a mixed bag of people. Some people are there because they’ve just gotten out of a breakup. Some might have been divorced for many years and just want to understand what’s happening with the relationship patterns, and some are actually still in a relationship and they don’t know if it’s healthy or unhealthy, or they keep breaking up and getting back together.
Often what I hear people saying “I feel crazy. I feel like the rug was ripped out from underneath me. I didn’t see this coming.” And then when we do some further exploration, we realize that there were always signs. There were always signs that were ignored, or that gut feeling that you just kind of set aside because you wanted something else.
So there’s many different ways that people get to the point where it breaks up, but really it’s a disconnection; it’s not seeing reality for what it is, not addressing the reality and having open communication. And what happens is over time, that chronic tension turns into something else. So it turns into infidelity, it turns into this crazy breakup where a three-year relationship ends up via a text message, it turns into a 15-year old marriage that eventually just loses all of its passion, and they grow apart from each other. So it’s never coming from leftfield.
What I really encourage the people who come either to Renew Breakup Bootcamp, or when I’m talking to people – whether they’re in relationship or they are single – is it’s never just about the other person. The common denominator is you. And it’s not you as in you should shame yourself or you should blame yourself, but it’s often in your programming and your subconscious beliefs and wounds. And if you don’t address that, the same emotional experience is going to just keep popping up and reappearing with different people or different situations.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Hm. Well, there’s two directions there that I’m intrigued by. One is the signs – and if you can speak to that a little bit – and then I would love to talk more about “It’s never just about the other person” and where you’re coming from around that. So can you speak to the signs, and what the invitation there is, if you’re helping people become more aware and awake, and giving that attention?
Amy Chan: Sure. I think one of the issues people struggle with in relationships is an uneven power dynamic. When someone gets into a relationship, it’s not as if it’s black and white, where they suddenly go from having a really fulfilled life, where they have hobbies, and a community, and a great network, and they exercise and do self-care, and then the next day they’re in a relationship and suddenly that’s all gone, and they’re just there to be submissive to their partner. It happens very, very gradually.
What I see often is people who started off feeling pretty empowered as an individual, and then what happens is they get into a relationship and suddenly that Saturday that they used to devote to having a dinner with their friends, and then the Sunday that they used to devote to volunteering in the morning becomes “You know what, this Saturday I’m not gonna do that. Volunteering can wait.” And then another weekend comes by where you’re like “Oh, I’ll just push off my brunch with my friends this time. That’s okay.” “Oh, I’ll just stop doing this art class, because it’s going to interfere with our schedule, and I know that my partner [unintelligible 00:09:48.24]” So it happens really gradually, until they get to a point where they’re like “Whoa, I don’t even recognize myself anymore.”
When they get to that point where “I don’t recognize myself anymore” usually there’s some story about a blow-out, whether it’s a huge fight or whether it’s a breakup… Something shakes it up, because the power dynamic keeps becoming more and more imbalanced, until it kind of explodes.
So my invitation there is — there’s always going to be a little bit of a power imbalance in a relationship. I think that’s normal. It’s gonna go up and down, and that’s just the flow of a relationship. I think it’s extremely important to look at yourself as an individual and look at yourself in a relationship, and to not lose the very first part. The very first part which is why your partner was drawn to you in the first place, and why you were drawn to your partner.
Look at those things that you do when you stop pursuing your passions, when you start cultivating your community and your friendships, and reassess, and do a check-in with yourself and see “Are you ignoring the signs where you’re losing yourself?”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I’m so appreciating your voice around this, because I think there’s a lot of messaging that we get – both men and women – around giving to our partner; if we love them, then there’s a sacrifice, or this consideration, and this giving, and that it often is very counter-intuitive to develop that healthy, reciprocal relationship. There is that connection with the self, and even knowing what you want, and so often when we’re getting lost, or perhaps losing our sense of self…
Amy Chan: Yeah, I think you make a really great point on this concept of giving and sacrifice. We’re almost trained to equate love with giving and sacrifice. And that doesn’t necessarily mean giving and sacrifice is not a good thing. I think what’s important is to look at the root of the giving and sacrifice… Because I admit, I used to be so proud that I was a giver. If you asked me “So describe yourself”, I would say “I’m a giver”, proudly.
And when I actually started to look into this a little bit deeper, what I realized was I wasn’t giving because I was altruistic, I wasn’t giving because it was rooted in a place of love; it actually stemmed from my childhood, where I didn’t receive attention and love from my father, who was a busy entrepreneur… So I learned as a protective mechanism and a coping strategy that the only way I could get his love and attention was to get good grades, and then get promotions… And I created this belief that I had to earn love. This translated into my relationships, and I have to say, both romantic, professional, and my platonic relationships. All across the board.
I would over-give, I would over-sacrifice, because to me that was the only way I could get love. And that actually was not giving, it was taking. And I’m sure you might be able to resonate with this, and I’m sure the people listening can… Have you ever received something from someone, whether it’s a gift, or a favor, and for some reason it just doesn’t feel right. Something feels a bit off. And that is really your subconscious is picking it up. That person isn’t giving to you, they’re taking, because the root of why they’re giving is from the wrong place, it’s from a dark place; it’s not from light and love.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah. Or like you said, the protective strategy or the coping tendency there, that there’s some belief or some operating system in us, that if we give, that that’s gonna increase the chances of getting what we want, whether or not it’s security and feeling wanted, or whether or not it’s attention and approval, or… There could be many things that we get from that, but I love the recognition of bringing awareness to that; that energetic or that vibration difference, that the giving has a lot of strings attached.
Amy Chan: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love this. So how do we connect that with the signs? How does somebody recognize that — is it just recognizing “I lost myself” or “I’m not doing what I used to do”, or I’ve even heard people say “I don’ recognize myself. I’m doing and saying things that I normally wouldn’t…” Is that what you mean?
Amy Chan: Yeah, I think there’s a few different things to look at in terms of signs… I think maybe one of those things is looking at balance, and doing a check-in with yourself, of “How balanced is this relationship?” Whether you’re in a relationship, or you’re starting one, ask yourself “Is this really me sacrificing my schedule on a constant, consistent basis, so that I can spend quality time? Is this me bending who I am in order for this relationship to work?” And if you find that you are doing this, kind of changing yourself and bending and editing yourself in order for the relationship to work, or to feel like you’ll be accepted by your partner, I think that is a sign to actually pause, do some reflection, and then communicate what’s going on.
I don’t think that if there’s an imbalance you suddenly go “Okay, this person’s just taking from me too much. I’ve gotta go, I’m not gonna do this anymore” because you also have to take responsibility of “How did you get there?” And again, it goes back into yourself, what is the root of your behavior, what is the root of your patterns? And when you notice that imbalance, when you notice that you’re starting to change who you are as a person, that is a great time to have an open, honest, vulnerable communication with your partner, and kind of just do a check-in.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. One client of mine in his earlier relationship — I love that he has the space with me to have this dialogue, and this wondering, because he definitely is pondering “Am I doing it because I know that’s what she wants me to do, or am I doing it because I really want to?” And just the dance there. And even as I think about my own marriage – I’ve been with my husband for 13+ years – there’s a subtlety… I mean, we can look on the spectrum of really extreme versions of this, that are really easier to identify sometimes, and then there’s even the subtleties of habit, or just getting into just the subtle differences that — staying connected is this process; I don’t know what you would say, but I don’t feel that it’s ever arriving; it’s staying in dialogue with the health of my center, and then also the dance of our relationship. It’s a forever unfolding process that there’s a tension and consciousness around.
Amy Chan: Yeah, I think you make such a great point, because it’s not a destination. And I think if we think we just kind of get there because we have the label of girlfriend/boyfriend, husband/wife, whatever that is (relationship stage) and we’re like “Okay, well I can just kind of coast now” – that is the beginning of a negative spiral. And I think you made a really great point – checking in with yourself, checking in with your partner and having a proactive invention of continuously maintaining and furthering connection. I think that’s such a brilliant point.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, and because there’s times/seasons where perhaps I’m feeling more clear, and articulate, or have a sense of where I’m at and can hold that space in a strong way, so in some ways I feel like I have more power… And then other times it feels like my husband is really clear, and perhaps I’m learning from him, and he’s giving me input and feedback, and perhaps I’m in process a little bit more… So I think that there is a lot of room around the topic of balance… But I just love that you’re pointing people to even an awareness about it… Because so often – I think what I was trying to say earlier is just the messaging and the modeling that we get culturally doesn’t support this voice very often, I don’t believe.
Amy Chan: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay, great. Well, let’s pivot towards what you’re seeing as far as the inner game, if you will, or the attention to the personal growth as it relates to relationship… Because you’re saying so often it’s not about our significant other.
Amy Chan: Yeah. Have you ever touched on attachment theory…?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes.
Amy Chan: Yeah, okay. I think attachment theory — do I need to repeat or summarize it at all?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I mean, I think you can, for people that might be just tuning in, but people who have listened definitely have a lay of the land… But I think it could be helpful.
Amy Chan: Yeah. I’ll do a quick summary of attachment theory, because I think that this definitely plays a big role in relationship dynamics, whether you’re single or you’re a couple. Just to give a refresher, attachment theory is basically the idea that by the age of 2-3 years old we develop an attachment system, which will pretty much determine how we relate romantically as adults… And there’s three main types of attachment styles, half of the population being securely attached, meaning they’re not afraid of intimacy, and they’re also not co-dependent…
The next group would be the avoidantly attached. These are people who, while they may be in relationships, they have a tendency to subconsciously suppress their attachment system, and they do this with what they call deactivation strategies, where they keep an emotional distance with their partner.
And the third kind, which is what I used to fall into, is an anxious attachment style. Often this comes from inconsistent caregiving as a child, and growing up to have this underlying fear of abandonment and rejection. And when that nervous system is triggered, because you either didn’t hear back from your partner, or your partner is not initiating enough romantic dates, the alarm bells go off and you feel like your connection is threatened and you get a lot of anxiety… And you can’t seem to calm down until you reestablish that your connection with your partner is safe.
And so the whole work on attachment theory is — the goal is to become more secure in your own attachment. This is definitely possible, and I’m an example of that, and I’m what’s called an “earned secure”. But it took me a lot of intention, because I realized – this was probably about four years ago, where my attachment style was really sabotaging my relationships… Because what would happens is I would get into a relationship with someone, and things would be great in the beginning, and then the minute I got triggered because they were inconsistent with their communication, or they didn’t initiate a date, I would completely freak out and usually have a meltdown, blame them, attack them, and I would do something that would sabotage the connection.
This just kept happening, so I realized “I need to work on this, and I’m gonna dedicate all of my focus into doing so.” I’m really proud that I am now an earned secure… And of course, some of my anxious tendencies can still get sparked, but I think understanding what is your attachment style and what is the attachment style of your partner could be incredibly helpful in navigating relationships and connection… Because if you are dating someone who is extreme on the avoidant side and you’re extreme on the anxious side, you might find that there’s a lot of polarity and chemistry, but that there’s also a lot of explosion… And the avoidant type might just have a different wiring and lower needs for constant communication. The person who is more on the anxious side might need communication every day, on a very consistent basis, in order to feel safe.
I think when you’re first aware of your own style and your partner’s style, then you can have a very open and honest dialogue.
In my relationship, I just pretty much in the beginning put it out there, like “Hey, these are the things that trigger me. This isn’t your fault, nor is it your responsibility, but they’re things I’m really working through. This is what might be really helpful, so that I can continue to heal these wounds around abandonment and rejection.”
Just having that conversation, and then understanding what are their needs for communication and quality time has just been able to help both of us become more secure.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that. Would you be willing to share a more specific example around what that looks like in practice?
Amy Chan: Yeah, here’s an example. My partner skews a little bit more avoidant. He’s secure, but has avoidant tendencies. And he needs a lot more downtime than I do, and time alone. Whereas me, a formerly anxious, I can merge and be with my partner 24 hours a day and have a great [unintelligible 00:24:21.14]. So if you just look at that, our wiring is very different.
I can be with someone all day long, my partner being with someone all day long. Does that matter how much they love me? It’s going to trigger this feeling of supplication. So understanding that we have different needs, we actually set a schedule.
We currently don’t live together, and we’re gonna have to have another conversation once we move in together… But we have set days where every week – those are our days apart. And we know, so I can go and schedule all of my social things during those times. He’s not as social as I am, and then he can have his time to listen to his podcasts, and do all those things that he likes to do alone. And ever since we implemented this, it’s just been so much healthier for our relationship; when we come back together, we’re so much more excited, because we allow some space and time for that desire to build back up.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, and there’s a real permission to support the deeper needs… And usually, for the anxiously attached, or having those tendencies, to have the security and the framing of what that means; it doesn’t mean I’m turning away from you because I don’t love you or I’m rejecting you, or that it’s some threat, but the frame is “This is healthy for me, and then we’ll rejoin, and we’re good, and everything’s great.”
Your partner, in his case – that really affords him the opportunity to turn inwards and really get his refueling time without feeling that pressure of not being good enough, or not letting you down with that old pattern of the pursuer/distancer tendencies.
So what does that look like when you’re triggered? What were you working on, perhaps live, when you would get triggered? Because I love that you’re speaking to how you can actually structure this, to have the foresight and the system to support both needs… And there’s also live triggering that can’t be anticipated sometimes. Are you open to speaking to that?
Amy Chan: For sure, yeah. Yes, there’s so much you can do on a proactive level when you’re in a non-activated state. You can create a little strategy, “When I get triggered, don’t do this.” And then what happens is life happens, and your partner doesn’t text you back for eight hours, and suddenly you’re like “Aaaah!”
I actually have a really great tool that has worked for me, and would happen is — this is especially a couple years ago, when my anxiety was really high… Whenever I got triggered, I would start to almost get into like a mini panic attack, and I would start breathing really shallow… We know that the lifecycle of an emotion is about 90-120 seconds, and what elongates that is the stories and assumptions and interpretations… That’s when we keep adding to it, that takes this small trigger and blows it up into this monster of a feeling and emotional rollercoaster.
So what I did that helped was whenever I felt that beginning surge of panic to happen, I would do a state change. I do this to this very day, whenever I feel the beginning of anxiety come through. I’ll actually just go — and I’ll even do this if I’m in an office, or something; I’ll go to the bathroom and I will set my timer for two minutes and I will shake. I will either shake or I’ll do jumping jacks. And really, I’m just letting all that excess cortisol and adrenaline that’s been pumping through my body because it’s in the survival state, to be able to move through and out of my body.
Once I do that, I find that I’m a lot more calmer. And then I practice deep breathing, and really just get myself back to center, back to grounded. And if I have the time and I’m not in an office or something – if I’m at my home – I’ll actually do a meditation where I will do a visualization… I was given this practice by a hypnotherapist many years ago, when I was working on my anxious attachment…
Basically, I imagine myself as a child… For me, I’m around five years old, and I imagine myself in a field; there’s nature around me… And then what I imagine is I see my family and the people that I love, people who I feel very safe and seen with. They form a circle around me. I’m in the middle, doing my thing. I might be painting, I might be dancing… And they’re just around me, sending me love.
While they’re doing that, I’m just imagining feeling all of that love and all that support, and I start repeating to myself in my head, “I’m safe, I am loved, I have all the resources that I need.” This is kind of like a three-part punch – I do the state change, I do the deep breathing, and then I do this visualization exercise of refeeling that love and support of people that I trust. That has really helped me.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: So great. Just the physiological entry point of accessing the movement, the getting in the body to discharge some of that… And then the mediation and being able to focus the brain. Does that help with the impulse to go down story lane and make up assumptions, without even realizing — does that helps suspend that judgment?
Amy Chan: Totally. Because when you’re in this survival state, that your connection is threatened, you’re not logical. So anything you’re going to do during that state is probably not a really healthy choice for your future. So you wanna get back to calm and center. And before you do anything, before you send that text or make that call, or break up, you want to be able to get back into a high vibe… And that might take more than just that exercise. It might take a day, it might take two days, but I think the most important thing is to practice learning the skill of how to pause.
That works whether you’re anxious or you’re avoidant, or just a human being who gets triggered from time to time… Because we are so uncomfortable with sitting through the emotion, and we think that emotion is going to last forever… And we make a decision based on how we feel at that moment, instead of just pausing and knowing that “This emotion is a wave, and it’s going to pass, and I don’t need to take this personally.” I think when you practice this, it doesn’t work right away. You don’t go from anxious to “Oh, I’m totally secure.” But when you keep practicing, you start strengthening your neural pathways, and to not take everything so personally, and that every fight is this fatal blow-out.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, and it sounds like based on these practices that you’re describing – I’m sure there’s more that you access – it allows you to recalibrate, regulate, and then have some perspective that you have more access to other possibilities, and can approach your partner from a little more equanimity… Is that right?
Amy Chan: Yeah, for sure.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay. So what does it look like when you’re actually with him? Do you step out of the relating and the interaction to do these practices, or do you give him some cue around “Hey, I’m triggered”, or give him vulnerability when you do recognize where you’re at…? What does it look like in relationship?
Amy Chan: Yeah, great question. Learning how to fight, I think, is one of the most beautiful things in a relationship. Whenever I look at a relationship, and if I think it’s a healthy or an unhealthy one, I don’t look at all the good times. It’s easy to have good times, especially in the beginning of a relationship. It is “How do you fight and how do you come back together?” That’s going to be different and custom to each person. So for me, I know that when I’m triggered I’m highly reactive, and I turn into a wounded child. And my wounded child goes into a “Screw you” mentality, “I’m superior. I’m out of here” and I wanna withdraw, I wanna isolate myself, and I wanna actually physically remove myself. I know that this is unhealthy, and it can be traumatizing for my partner…
What I do now is — and I don’t do this every time. There have definitely been times when I’ve just blown up, and that has not worked out well…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: [laughs] Right. Just in case I needed a refresher around how that doesn’t work.
Amy Chan: [laughs] I will actually say “Hey, I’m feeling really this right now, and I wanna get back to center, so I’m gonna go and I’m gonna do a meditation, and when I’m ready to talk about it, I’ll come to you.” And I actually have a few guided meditations that I go to, and I’ll just kind of sit down, or I’ll lay down, I’ll pop it on and I’ll do the guided meditation. When it’s over, I’ll kind of do a check-in – “Am I still feeling this massive, intense emotion?” If I do, I go back in.
There was one point when I had to — I was doing a 20-minute one. I did it four times in a row, because I was so anxious… But every single time I was like “Oh, it’s getting a little bit smaller.” And then finally, by the fourth time I went “Oh, this big anxiety ball just kind of minimized and minimized”, and then I could feel that my logic, rational brain was back online. And in that state, I’m much more equipped to have an honest, adult conversation with someone where we can create harmony. Because otherwise, you’re just getting into a boxing ring with your fists up, and you’re gonna fight.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Totally. I love that commitment, and that devotion and dedication to those practices… Because it is not easy. The impulse is to definitely wanna just go into that knee-jerk reaction.
Do you share, do you offer up the underbelly, if you will, of some of this pain when you are more regulated, and do you have those more intimate conversations about the pain?
Amy Chan: Yes, I definitely share. A way that I help myself structure my thoughts and my feelings, and not just fill it with projection, is I’ll journal first. Of course, this can’t happen every single time, but there have been times where something big was bothering me, and I just journaled about it. And I used the non-violent communication method, where the first step was identifying the facts, the reality of the situation versus my interpretations and my biases and my assumptions.
Then I would recognize how I was feeling, and then I would recognize what is the unmet need… Because it’s never just about the dishes, right? It’s never just about the flowers. There is an unmet need, and if you’re not getting to the root of the issue, you’re just troubleshooting the wrong thing.
Yeah, they can wash the dishes more, yeah, they’ll buy you more flowers, and then you’re like “Oh, but I’m still pissed of. Then now there’s this thing. Now fix this symptom.” And then I’ll be surprised, I was like “Oh, the actual need here of why I’m feeling sad is connection.” That’s often why I get triggered, it’s because the need of connection isn’t there. Then I’ll offer — and again, this is written down first, so I can just kind of work through my thoughts and feelings.
Then I’ll look at like “Okay, what are some possible solutions?”, instead of just hashing out the problem, the details, and then “You said this, and then you didn’t do this.” I’m like “Okay, what would be a great negotiation, where my partner isn’t guilted or forced into something, but we can both create a happy medium and move through and move forward from this?”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: So great. I love that you systematized a lot of these practices to really adopt them in a way that does give transformation and help you have the healing and have earned secure attachment… So it’s really great to hear your experience and your examples.
Let’s pivot towards what you’re hoping to help people with in the Renew Breakup Bootcamp.
Amy Chan: Yeah. You know, I’m called an expert in relationships, but I’m really a student, and I will be a student forever. It is one area that I just struggled with so much… And to this day, and hopefully for the rest of my life I will continue learning and being a student of love. My hope is that I can help people have healthier relationships with themselves, so that they can in turn have healthier relationships with other people… Because it starts with yourself. If you take care of yourself, if you have a foundation of high self-worth, self-respect, communication skills and these tools in your arsenal, you’re so much better equipped to create a conscious, healthy relationship with another person… So that is my hope.
I think that the second part, which is having a healthy relationship with another person, will just come as a ripple effect when you actually work on yourself and learn these tools, and start rewiring those old patterns and that programming that’s no longer serving you.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that. And how can people learn more about the Renew Breakup Bootcamp, if they’re interested?
Amy Chan: So you can go check out my website, RenewBreakupBootcamp.com. I also blog about love on my website, called justmytype.ca. And I have a book coming out that’s being published by HarperCollins. It’s coming out in September of 2020. If you pre-order it now, you can find it on my website, RenewBreakupBootcamp.com, you’ll get a free Rewire Your Heart Kit, with some of these meditations I talked about, and some other tools. If you’re on Instagram, find me at @missamychan.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Lovely. I love that you have these offerings for people to engage with. Is there anything else that you wanna say before we wrap up today?
Amy Chan: I would love to leave with one really practical tool to help people, whether you’re anxious, or avoidant, or secure… But really just to help you whenever you feel that you are not being present. Maybe you feel anxiety about the future, or you’re worrying about the past. It’s an exercise that has really helped the people I’ve worked with at Breakup Bootcamp, and it’s called the Stop Sign Exercise.
So the moment that you start getting those thoughts, and you’re about to go on a rumination rollercoaster, or your anxiety is about to spiral, this exercise is really quick and very helpful. What you do is you first close your eyes, you imagine a red Stop sign, and then you open your eyes and you actually say out loud the word “Stop!” And then what you do is you look around you and you start looking for things that you’re grateful for, and you just keep listing them off.
If you’re going for a walk and you’re walking down the street, you might notice the trees, and you’re grateful for the trees, because they provide oxygen. And you’re grateful for these cafes, because you love coffee. If you’re at home, you’ll just notice “Oh, I’m grateful for this apartment that I get to live in.” You start listing and listing, and maybe even add reasons why… And what then happens is eventually your brain forgets the original thought that you’re about to ruminate.
It’s such a beautiful practice that has really helped me and other people, and it’s a muscle that you build. The first few times you might go “Oh, this isn’t working. I’m still ruminating, I’m still having this anxious thought”, but if you keep doing it, you’ll find that it’ll distract you from going into a rumination rollercoaster.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, and really being able to access the present moment and the mindfulness – it’s such a powerful tool, and I so appreciate you’re distilling in such an easy exercise for people to experiment with… And just the encouragement there that if you don’t feel that dramatic shift initially, that it is a learning curve and that you can really strengthen this exercise to have this more change effect.
Amy Chan: Yeah. I think you just put it so eloquently, Jessica. In personal growth and evolution you don’t go from 0 to 100 overnight. Just focus on going from 0 to 1, and then 1 to 2, and taking these small steps. And taking these small steps on a regular, frequent basis, and eventually the steps add up. And even if you fall back — like I said, I study relationships and attachment theory, and just a few weeks ago I had a huge blow-out, because I was angry… It doesn’t delete all the other steps that I’ve taken because I’ve fallen back a few times. So for anyone and everyone out there, I hope you are all students in love, and we just look at that next one step that we could do to improve ourselves and how we relate, and we just keep going from there.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes… And Amy, I would just even say – and I don’t know if this resonates for you – when we do have these bigger things that we’re confronted with, oftentimes I see that as a deepening in the practice, that we’re being challenged in a greater way to deepen that healing… So I just am so grateful and appreciative that you’re in the world, teaching and guiding others, and also continuing your student in learning this topic… So it’s so nice to know that you’re assisting people on this journey.
Amy Chan: Thank you so much!
I hope you have enjoyed today’s interview, again, with Amy Chan. I particularly found her candor and ability to access these principles that she’s integrated in her life through example and story, and also providing real concrete exercises for you to consider to implement in your practice.
Her voice is such a good compliment to the Empowered Relationship podcast, because the principles are in resonance, and I love that she’s being able to offer a different way of articulating them.
If you are interested in getting more acquainted with Amy’s teachings and her offerings, please feel free to visit today’s show notes to find easy access to the links that she’s mentioned. Again, you can find that on my website, which is DrJessicaHiggins.com. Click on Podcast and you can find all of the episodes there. You’ll also be able to find other tools and resources, perhaps a free guide on increasing the quality of your communication, or shifting criticism into connected communication… There’s lots of different offerings to support you, again, in cultivating long-lasting intimacy. Again, you can find that all over at DrJessicaHiggins.com.
Until next time, I hope you take great care.
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