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Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 207, “How to get out of financial debt when working together as a couple”, an interview with Ericka Young.

Before we get started, I wanna take a moment and join with you in setting the intention. As I set the intention for the empowered relationship podcast, I wanna invite you to just check in with you, around your intention, tuning in for today’s conversation, perhaps recognizing where you’re at in relationship, and what you’re seeking.

Perhaps you’re looking for tools, input, inspiration, guidance, as you contemplate next steps and how you interact with your significant other. My intention for the Empowered Relationship Podcast is that I’m providing you with research, education, experience and understandings, and principles for you to contemplate, again, as you’re negotiating the landscape of long-term intimacy, all with the goal of improving the quality of that connection, so that you’re feeling more intimacy, more happiness, more authenticity, that represents you more fully and also allows you to, again, deepen in that connection with your significant other.

Many of the topics we discuss on this show are talking about difficult spots where we might get threatened, or feel challenges, or be surprised by. Oftentimes people expect love and intimacy to be joyous, and loving, and positive… And yes, we all want those things.

Sometimes we might have things come up, all in the interest of healing that, and growing that. Sometimes we’re attracted to a partner that has developed parts of themselves that we don’t have developed, or perhaps there’s some attraction to patterns that you experience with them because it’s familiar to you from your childhood or upbringing… So relationship can be one of our greatest teachers.

I am on this journey with you as I am committed to my personal growth, and also my relational intimacy, that as I turn towards some of what feels challenging – again, I deepen in my growth and deepen the intimacy with my significant other, my husband. So thank you for joining me in these conversations. I feel like as we endeavor in this pursuit, we’re healing ourselves, we’re healing our relationship, and offering healing to others in the world.

As we gain more health and positivity, that begins to be more of a model and shining a light in our marriage, in our partnership, in our family, in our community and extended network.

If you would like access to today’s show notes, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast and you can find all the episodes there. Again, today’s episode is 207, “How to get out of financial debt when working together as a couple”, an interview with Ericka Young. Let’s get started.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Ericka Young is the president and founder of Tailor Made Budgets, which she opened in 2005, after she and her husband Chris climbed their way out of nearly $100,000 in debt. She became a certified financial coach by Dave Ramsey’s Lampo group in 2006, and she combines her passion for helping people with creative debt reduction strategies, so everyone can have a path to financial freedom.

Ericka, thank you for joining us today!

Ericka Young: Thank you so much for having me!

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, I am excited to talk about debt today, because I think it’s a  topic that perhaps people have a lot of shame around, or just have difficulty even talking about. Before we pivot to that though, I just know you offer a lot of support in the realm of finances, and to couples. I’m just hoping you can help us get to know what got you interested in this topic, and helping people with money and their relationship with money.

Ericka Young: Absolutely. Well, first of all, I’m a recovering debtor myself… So I got involved in this work because I myself needed somebody like me, and there wasn’t anyone who would coach you through the process of managing  a budget, getting out of debt, figuring it out, you know, biting my husband’s my head off when we didn’t agree… So I really wanted to make certain that I was able to fill that need.

I was curious about money. When my husband and I got married, I was curious, because I didn’t have any real good money teachers; I didn’t have the kind of people in my life that would teach me how to manage money, how to make it grow, how to stay out of debt… So I just was curious; when I started working, I realized “Wow, there’s so much I don’t know. There’s so much more to this than just paying the bills.” And I read books, and I went to events, and I took all the classes my company offered on financial health, and my 401K… I just became a student of money, so that I can understand how it applied to me.

I realized – my  husband and I both actually realized we had some mess in front of us. We got married with over 65,000 in debt, with student loans, car notes and credit cards. Then we had kids, and that debt grew, because each time we had a kid, we thought we needed another car. So that adds to the debt load, and… I think that we were just  honestly very normal; a lot of people see debt as normal… And I really wanted to not have these payments chasing me around.

When I was taking both of my kids to childcare, I realized that my mortgage payment equaled my debt load per month, equaled childcare. [laughs] And I could not quit working if I wanted to when my kids were little because of our debt. It was a struggle for me to realize that there was just so much that we didn’t know.

My husband actually found Dave Ramsey on the radio, and he said “You need to listen to this guy.” I was annoyed… [laughter] But I listened, and I realized that we had some work to do. So my husband and I embarked on a journey to get out of debt, and as a result of getting out of nearly $100,000 in debt over the course of five years, I wanted to help other people have that same experience of freedom… So I became one of Dave Ramsey’s coaches, I’ve studied coaching and helping people… Not really counseling, but sort of that in-between, where I help people with their money management, and also help couples get on the same page with their finances. So that’s the work that I do today.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Thank you. I’m curious, was there a point for you when you felt like “I need to change this”, or how did you know that the debt was something you needed to really focus on? Because some people carry a lot of debt, and it’s just — like me, I have student loans, and they are enormous… And I have a payment, and I just pay it every month, and that’s kind of what I do. When I look at it sometimes, the amortization of it all, I’m like “Aaarghhh!” But it’s something I do; I look at it, and I don’t actually know that there is [unintelligible 00:09:18.01] I pay extra payments, and there’s definitely years when I’m on point with that… But for a lot of Americans who carry a lot of debt, I’m just curious, where was it that you were at that moment, like “This needs to change”? Or was it your husband that was like “Let’s listen to this guy and see if we can improve the way we do things?

Ericka Young: That’s a really good question, because just listening to the radio program didn’t make me change my mind. It was when I had a brand new baby, and my husband went to work, and I could not go anywhere because our car died. It needed a new engine for about $1,000, and we did not have $1,000 to fix that car. And so I was stuck at home with an infant… And sometimes that’s not really the best place to be. If that baby needs something and you don’t have a means to get around, that can kind of be tricky.

So that was the time when I said “We’re not prepared. Something’s missing in our financial program when we can’t get our car fixed.” And honestly, we went two months without that car being repaired. So we were just hoping and praying that there was no real issue… I mean, there were times when I took him to work in order for me to be able to have the vehicle that we had… So that was a real life moment when  said “I don’t think we’re supposed to live like this. Something’s gotta change.” I’m an engineer, making pretty good money, and I don’t have a thousand dollars.

What that meant was not only did we not have the money in savings, but also didn’t have room on a credit card to be able to use… And we didn’t have family members from whom we could borrow money. Not that I recommend that, but it’s just that our options were very limited. And being on maternity leave meant that my pay was reduced from what would have been normal.

So clearly we were living paycheck to paycheck… And that’s when I personally had my wake-up call. Because my hands were tied, and I was a new mother. So I think people have their own wake-up moment, when the light bulb goes on and they’re like “Oh my gosh, I can’t live like this anymore”, and that was mine. And I had to find a way out of this. It required some diligence and some persistence, especially in those first six months when we had to figure out what were we gonna do and how were we gonna do it.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right… Because you’re talking about a really pivotal moment of saying  “This is enough. I’m not gonna run this pattern anymore.” Also, you’re talking about having a spouse, and getting on the same page… You’re talking about believing that another way is possible, and then finding that path. And it sounds like you guys were really diligent, and self-studying, and had a lot of motivation. Were you guys pretty much on point, in the same perspective around money, and paradigm? Or did you guys have to do any work there to get aligned?

Ericka Young: I think everybody’s gotta do some work. I think even now — we’ve been out of debt now for… Wow, I think it’s been 16 years, and we still have times where money conversations can be heated. And part of this is having good communication and thinking the best of one another, and really being committed to the future that you guys desire together. So that part helps us through when we’re disagreeing about something, or we’ve misunderstood.

Early on, honestly, one of the things that we absolutely agreed on was that we wanted to change our family tree. Both of us came from single-parent households; we saw what bankruptcy can do to a person and your stamina around finances… We saw what it looks like to not have enough, both of us, in our own ways. And I think that we just did not want our kids to have to witness that. So what would it mean for us to change our family tree, do something different so that we could get a different result?

So we were more committed to the outcome of that, than we were committed to all of the things that come along with having immediate gratification. When we disagreed on the methods, or on the timing, or on how we managed some of the smaller things, it really came down to the real goal was to change our family tree.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, it’s hard to justify whatever — if it’s getting your nails done, or a beverage, or some workout thing… Whatever it is that people wanna spend, that might at the end of the day pale. [unintelligible 00:14:18.25] talk about changing a family tree; that value, that vision that you have together – I love the positivity there, because then it’s less about trying to control each other, or who’s right, or nitpicking one another… It really does bring the focus back.

Ericka Young: Right. And I think the one thing that I think people need to also know is that it is totally fine to enjoy the journey. One of the main reasons why it took my husband and I five years to get out  of that debt was because we did enjoy the journey. We drove to Disneyland, and we took our kids when my youngest was young enough to get in for free… And we left the park, sat in the car, ate our food that we brought with us, got back into the park.

So we wanted to make certain that we could still live life, but on a cash basis. We did not wanna go on a vacation and come back with debt lingering because we didn’t plan appropriately. We also did not want to go through life without our kids enjoying along the way. I think that there also needs to be balance, because deprivation is a word that I hate. [laughs] So it’s really about “What is the return on investment?” There are so many things that we would have potentially regretted not participating in if we had said no… So we said yes, and we’ve found a way to say yes that felt right to us in the moment, that we could sleep at night having made that decision.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice. I like that there’s a process here. It’s not always smooth and not always easy, but there’s some guiding principles that help you get to that outcome that you guys were looking for.

Ericka Young: Right.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: So in my mind I’m like how that’s impressive and incredible that it didn’t feel like there was any room – when you’re talking about this moment, having the car break down and not having any options… How do you go from that? Was it just strictly the numbers and getting educated and having a budget? Because I know when you talk about restriction or depravation, a lot of people associate a budget to be more constrictive… But can you talk a little bit about how you did that with a vision, but also how you actually went from being strapped (pretty much) to having freedom?

Ericka Young: Yeah, the practical side has a lot of layers. I would say for about six months there wasn’t a whole lot of extra room for anything. Once we made the decision to say “Okay, you know what – this can’t happen anymore.” When I went back to work, and my income increased, we lived like we did for those three months when I was on maternity leave. So that little bit of extra then could go towards that. And we were intentional, of course, with the budget. I think the budget is simply a plan. It gets a negative connotation because it didn’t work for someone. I think we don’t like budget because we think it’s restricting, but when  you put in the movie nights, or the date night, or a little bit of dining out – not an excessive amount of dining out – you still can live, and like I said, enjoy the journey.

So we have those things in there, and then when you  have a pay increase, all of that begins to go towards debt, because you’re used to living on this income, you just don’t wanna expand it when more money comes in. So every extra $100 or $200 then can now go towards debt repayment. Whenever my husband would get a bonus of some type, we would also (like I said, with the balance) enjoy a little — get a new outfit, put the rest on debt.

So we were very intentional about not depriving ourselves, and also celebrating the wins. Honestly, I think it’s very important when you pay off a credit card, or pay off a vehicle, that you celebrate, you do a happy dance… Make certain that you do something that’s fun, and give yourself permission, because that is motivating. And then also think  about what the next celebration will be. I teach my clients all the time, what will make it worth it at that particular finish line – what is that goal? Maybe that’s when they decide to take a vacation; maybe that’s when you decide to do something that requires a little extra… Because it’s totally fine to celebrate, and I think it’s important.

There’s no way we would have gone five years without dining out. There’s no way we would have gone five years without a vacation. So how do you still fit those things in, while (like I said) still being intentional. And there were times when we did a staycation; we stayed at a hotel that was 30 minutes away, in a beautiful place, overnight, or for two nights. And because it wasn’t far, the travel costs were basically non-existent, comparatively speaking… And we still got to hang out in the pool. We’ve done that before… And eating someplace different. And that’s vastly different than getting on a plane and having to rent a vehicle and all that kind of stuff.

So just being creative, I think, is also a part of the process. When you’re limited on funds, you think about how can you do it differently, and then you get excited about trying that new thing.

Sometimes being in debt can help you exercise some parts of your brain that you probably wouldn’t have otherwise, because I think it’s very easy to spend money, but it’s a little bit more challenging and it takes some creativity to not spend.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I know, the resourcefulness.

Ericka Young: Yes…

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I really appreciate that you’re inviting sustainability and something that feels really doable, because if it doesn’t work and we can’t do it, it’s not gonna actually have the effect that we’re looking for.

Ericka Young: Right.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I have a question… So when you talk about emotional spending, or for you and your husband, having this plan, getting more educated – was it pretty much that, or did you recognize “Oh, I have a relationship with money that I wasn’t aware of” or “I have feelings or emotions that I wasn’t aware of” and then had to work with that?

Ericka Young: That’s a really good question. Originally, initially for us it was all about the logistics; this is the hand that we were dealt – we both were born in two families that did not know how to manage and handle money. So it was just inherited, and frankly, in our modern education system, even my kids now who’ve been through — one in high school, one in college, and they tell me that it’s non-existent. They don’t talk about how to handle money, and if they do, it’s really not what they need to know.

So the divide between what they need to know and what they’re learning in this area is not there, in terms of our primary education, high school… And then when you get to college and you get a degree, unless you’re in finance – literally, unless you’re in the business school – there’s a lot of stuff you won’t know either. So you come out of college and no one has taught you this stuff.

So we inherited a deck of cards that didn’t help our journey, and then no one taught us along the way even professionally in our schooling… So that’s what we dealt with at first. It wasn’t until later when I really started working with people that I started to realize “This is a whole lot more emotional than I expected.” And I’m an engineer by trade, so I’m pretty practical and numbers-oriented anyway, so I think it’s natural for me to not have thought about the emotion behind it. But I’ve been in business now for 15 years, and it wasn’t until about 5-7 years ago when I started having conversations with my husband about why he is the way he is and why I am the way that I am around money, and you know, learning why people are hoarders, for instance, around money… Or why people are particularly stingy, or what are some of the things that your parents taught you indirectly about money that you’re still doing.

I start asking my clients these questions and started realizing how uniquely-tied and linked it is to how they behave today with money, and why they perpetuate a lot of the same things that they saw, even if no one actually taught them. So there’s a lot to the emotional side of it, and I’ve started incorporating that in the work that I do, with some assessments and questionnaires and things like that, so I  can understand a little bit more background and history to where people are today with their finances and how they relate to it.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Do you have a common emotional challenge that people have with money that you could give us a story around with your clients?

Ericka Young: People are very much so embarrassed about their finances. I think when people come to me — it’s like when a woman is having a baby, she has no shame. She’s like “Just get this thing out of me!” [laughter] But prior to that, she’s like “Um, nope. I don’t know how this is gonna go.” But as soon as she starts feeling those labor pains, it’s like “I don’t care. Any doctor can come, any nurse can come. Help me out.”

So I think people get to me when it’s kind of that last resort, like “Oh my gosh, somebody’s gotta help me, and I’m just gonna tell it all. This is everything. This is where I’ve been, and it stinks, and I hate it.” Shame and embarrassment keep people from facing their money. Shame and embarrassment keep people from looking at their credit report. Shame and embarrassment — I actually talk to people a lot, and I ask them how much debt they have, and they say “I don’t know. I don’t wanna look at that number. I have never totaled it. Do you want me to do that right now?” That’s a common question.

They’re so afraid that looking at the number is gonna mean that the house is gonna fall down around them. And my take on this is first of all you’re not alone, this is why I’m here. I’ve been there, so I understand that this is difficult. You can do hard things though. And if you don’t face it, you can’t change it. So if you’re overweight and you don’t look at the scale, you have no idea how far  you have to go. If you’ve got a health issue and  you don’t go to the doctor, you don’t know what is possible to get you back healthy again

And the same goes with your debt. If you don’t ever see the total, then you never know what it’s gonna take in order for you to get free. So I think facing it is definitely hard. There’s a lot of shame and embarrassment and remorse and guilt… But I also think that we are capable of hard things, and I also think that people need to know — I talk about this GPS Lady, and I’m telling you, I wish I knew her name…

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I’m like “GPS Lady… Who’s that?”

Ericka Young: The GPS Lady – we plug it into our phone, we plug in the address where we wanna go, and the GPS Lady shows us how to get there. She talks us through it. But guess what, if you don’t have a GPS on your phone or in your car, she can’t help you get anywhere. So you have to know where you are, and that just means facing your reality. So I just think that sometimes you need a loving, kind hand… And the fact that I’ve seen so many different cases – most of the time, I’m not surprised; sometimes people wanna know where they fit, where do they stand with all of the people that I’ve talked to…

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Oh… “Am I normal?”

Ericka Young: “Am I normal?  Oh my gosh, am I the worst you’ve ever seen?” And no, very rarely do people ever reach what I might consider the worst I’ve seen… And the worst I’ve seen actually has nothing to do with the dollar amount and everything to do with the headspace around “Do you believe you can get there?” That’s the big difference. So that is huge. If you really don’t think it’s possible, then it won’t be.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, and I’m just imagining someone like yourself can be that safe, non-judgmental, supportive space to look and do that really painful, scary risk of looking, and then having the support and the GPS around how to start finding a path.

And then I’m sure some of your clients might have more to unpack around maybe what they weren’t taught, or what they were taught that they have to maybe repattern… But just that initial fear of confronting it, and perhaps feeling so overwhelmed and uncertain around what to do about it… But with someone like yourself, I’m sure it could be really helpful.

Ericka Young: Well, the cool thing about this work is that I’ve seen my clients do far better than I myself. I have a client who came to me – it was a couple, and at that time they were in their fifties, and they came to me and they were pretty embarrassed, like I said… They showed me their debt amounts, and they had, between their cars and their credit cards  – only  those two debts – they had over $100,000 in debt. Because they were in their fifties, they didn’t have student loan debt; they just had credit cards and car debt. It was over $100,000.

In addition to that thought, they had refinanced their home… So they had paid a home off — like I said, they were in their fifties, their home had been paid off, and they refinanced the home to cover credit card debts. So their true debt load  was over $200,000, and they made a portion of that look pretty by refinancing their home again. And let’s be clear, they have since paid off $200,000. These people have really committed themselves, and been able to see a difference. They’re out of debt, and they’re retired. Both of them are now retired. I said “You guys have done an excellent job. You’re at a place where you have your emergency fund, you’ve paid off your debt, you’re retired, you don’t need all of the income…”

The wife was able to retire just in December, and I’m happy to do maintenance coaching, reduce our sessions down, and our husband said “No, no. You got us here, you’re gonna keep us here.” [laughter]

So I see that my clients are able to do so much more with just knowing that they have somebody that holds them accountable to what they say they want. That’s the beauty of it.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: No kidding… Okay, and just one lat question here… So what do you see with couples that perhaps they’re not always in the same place, at the same time on their journey? Where one person might be like “I wanna get this thing, and I feel so strongly about it.” Maybe like “I wanna go back to school, and do this program, and here’s what it means to me…” and then the other person is like “This does not fit in our plan…” What do you tell couples around how to negotiate when maybe one person’s off on a different track?

Ericka Young: Yeah, that’s tough. I’m not gonna say that’s easy. But I will say that it is very common for couples to have two values systems, or to have two different career goals that might clash in terms of timing… So I think it’s good for them to first of all see the big picture, where it is they’re really trying to go as a team, and then find some shared goals and what can they work on in this moment that they’re in agreement on.

Sometimes it takes breaking it down. What are the steps to get to where this one part of the couple, one spouse/partner is ready to go to school? What is it gonna take to get there? How can I support you in that, and is now the time? So we have to break this down a little bit granular… Because sometimes we’re saying “Oh yeah, I wanna go to school”, but really, there’s nine more months before that actually happens. So what needs to happen prior to that being possible, or is there a job shift or a career change or something?

I think sometimes we’re just afraid to look at it and say “Now is not the time… But when is the right time, so that we can be in a place we’re supporting one another and feeling good about it.” Having money conversations doesn’t change when you don’t have any debt.

I myself, with my husband, we’re just kind of going through this similar thing where I’m realizing that there’s right now some decisions around timing, and I’m like “Now is not the time for this thing that I want… But how can I get myself prepared, so that when the time is right, I am ready?” And that’s what I’m working on.

I can’t jump in and say yes right now, but I can say “What can I do to be ready? And, for that matter, how can the rest of my family be ready? What needs to happen so that I can help all of us be in a place where the timing is right?”

So don’t say no. Say “If not now, when?” I think that’s always a really good question to ask whenever we’re talking about money. Don’t ever say no. Let’s talk about “If not now, when? Or how much and how often does this need to occur?” And then you’ll start to get closer to the real underlying root of what needs to change, or shift, and how you can get on the same page with it.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice. I love it. So I’m recognizing we could probably spend so much more time talking with you, but I know you have a lot of resources and offerings… How can people get in touch with what you’re up to?

Ericka Young: That’s a great question, too. First of all, for couples I do have a book, and it’s on Amazon. It’s called “Naked and Unashamed: Ten Money Conversations Every Couple Must Have.” You can find that on Amazon, get that right to your door. I also have a free 7-day money challenge. Every day, for one week, you’ll get an email in your inbox, and there’s a video (4-5 minutes) about small little shifts you can make with your finances, so that you’re able to get in a healthier place with your finances.

And on my website, tailormadebudgets.com, is where you can find me. I offer a 30-minute session free of charge to understand where you are and how I can help you, in what ways that make sense. So that’s also something that people can take advantage of as well.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Wonderful. Well, thank you, Ericka. It’s been so fun to talk with you, and I can hear your expertise and your integration of all of these practices and principles, and just your desire to be continually learning in this field… So thank you for what you’re doing.

Ericka Young: Thank you for having me. This was awesome.

I hope you have enjoyed today’s episode with Ericka Young. I’ve found her insight and wisdom to be very grounded and integrated, and I find that when people have done their work, it shows in the way that they are able to share their story, as well as how they assist others in navigating these principles.

I really like the title of her book. I have not yet read it, I hope to read it – Naked and Unashamed: 10 Money Conversations Every Couple Must Have. I really liked that title, Naked and Unashamed, because as you heard in today’s interview, I do feel so many people have judgment and shame that perhaps they’re carrying around their financial position… And then when we come into relationship, sometimes we struggle to create a safe, non-judgmental, supportive environment.

Often, money can be such a difficult topic… It is so closely tied to our sense of security, our sense of identity, and worth, and when we have inadequacies or we’re not feeling good about our financial standing, it can connect to much deeper threads. So I really wanna invite a sense of sensitivity here. And if you recognize when you’ve attempted to have these conversations, that it starts to turn a corner into negative patterns, perhaps even criticism or defensiveness, and maybe even escalating towards arguments… To perhaps just slow down, and maybe bring more intention into the vulnerability of this space.

Perhaps if you notice criticism being a pattern that exists beyond just the money conversation, I wanna invite you to download a free guide, “Shifting Criticism Into Connected Communication. That’s gonna give you some real concrete languaging of how to shift criticism into a request… Because when we communicate with our significant other using criticism, the likely response is gonna be defensiveness, and they miss your request entirely.

So for us to have more connection in our communication, it does require getting a little more clear on our need or our request, which can feel vulnerable.

Again, if you would like access to any of the links mentioned today, or to get in contact with Ericka Young and with all that she has to offer, please visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast, and you can find today’s episode – episode 207, “How to get out of financial debt when working together as a couple”, an interview with Ericka Young. There you’ll find her website, a link to her book, as well as her social media links.

Until next time, I hope you take great care.

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