Return to Show Notes

Welcome to The Empowered Relationship Podcast, helping you turn relationship challenges into opportunities and setting you up for relationship success. Your host, Dr. Jessica Higgins, is a licensed psychologist and relationship coach who shares valuable tips, tools and resources for you to dramatically improve your relationship.

This podcast is 100% ad-free. To support this show, please subscribe and write a review today. Here is your host.

*   *   *

Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 212, “How to manage political differences in relationship”, an interview with Craig and Debbie Lambert. Before we get started, I wanna invite you to take a moment and just settle into the intention. Perhaps what you’re interested in getting support around, or guidance in, or just what draws you to joining the conversation today. Just take a moment and honor that.

As you do that, I just wanna name the intention of the Empowered Relationship podcast, and that is for you to have more resource, more support, guidance, tools resources, tips, strategies, all of it, in how to navigate long-term intimacy more skillfully, more mindfully, more successfully.

As we do this, we recognize that some of the challenges are actually opportunities for growth. Growth for ourselves, and growth for our relationship. And as we say yes to turning towards some of this challenge, perhaps challenge to grow our capacity for more love, more connection, more happiness, or perhaps working with threats and insecurities and fears differently… That we are increasing the quality of health.

I know that this is not an easy task, but as we join in conversations together, my hope is that we are getting support and we’re feeling a sense of connection in this pursuit together. And as I have mentioned on many shows, I am in this with you.

If you would like access to today’s show notes, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com click on Podcast, and you can find all the episodes listed there. Again, today’s episode is 212, “How to manage political differences in relationship” an interview with Craig and Debbie Lambert. Let’s get started in today’s episode.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: The Mindful Couple. Craig has over 30 years of experience dedicated to helping couples rekindle their love, deepen their intimacy and strengthen communication as a couples therapist, and Debbie is a relationship educator and coach. Through Lambert Couples Therapy, they have worked with thousands of couples, helping them understand the often unconscious underpinnings of relationship conflict. They are based in San Diego.

Debbie and Craig, thank you so much for joining us today.

Debbie Lambert: Thanks for having us, we’re excited to be here.

Craig Lambert: Thank you, Jessica.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: So for people that are just getting acquainted with you, or perhaps are not familiar with your work, I’m curious if you guys would be able to share  a little bit about what got you really interested in helping couples.

Craig Lambert: Yeah, my interest started probably when I was in my early teens. I was a disciple or a student of a guy by the name of [unintelligible 00:03:59.26] I was a yoga student at the time, and I remember hearing him say, Jessica, that being relationship was the most difficult yoga of them all. And having been a yoga student for so long, even at that time, I recognized what he was saying – that relationships really are a lot of work, and take a lot of practice. I took that to heart.

Over the years, my journey has always been to understand couplehood, and try to understand what it means and why it is so challenging to be in a relationship. So over the years I continued my spiritual practice and I ended up in a monastery for a while… And I remember asking the head monk at the monastery “Can you speak about relationships, and why it’s so challenging?” We were sitting in a big circle and he brought me up to sit right next to him, and he ended up doing eye-gazing with me; it was for the first time I had ever done it at that time, in front of the group. And that was really interesting. I think the lesson there was “Okay, you need to be present. Fully present. And notice your thoughts and your projections.”

Fast-forward, continuing the journey, and I get married and I decide I really wanna use my own relationship now to really work on what it means to have a really high-level, incredibly beautiful relationship. And I bumped into Harville and Helen Hendricks, who back in the ’80s wrote a best-selling New York Times book called “Getting the Love You Want”, a guide for couples. And we ended up going to one of his workshops, and it was mind-blowing. It was the first time I truly learned what it meant to be fully present in relationship, and to really be able to take my relationship and use it as a vehicle for my own personal growth, and the growth of our relationship.

So I continued my work with Harville and Helen, and over the years — I had already been a therapist, but I decided to specialize in couples therapy… And over the years I’ve studied with Harville and Helen, on many occasions, and I’ve now been able to co-facilitate and work with them on giving their workshops… And they’ve been great mentors to me.

I also ended up evolving my work to bring in emotionally-focused therapy, which is another high-level for of relationship therapy, as well as John Gottman’s work. So over the years I’ve just become more eclectic and bringing in strategies and tools from all of the world-renowed, highly-recognized couples therapy work. So that’s kind of what brought me to where I am today, which is I have a fairly large private practice here in San Diego. How about you, Debbie?

Debbie Lambert: Well, let’s see… My background is a little bit different from Craig’s. I entered into this field through the area of psychology, and then [unintelligible 00:07:04.27] I was working in organizations. But I’ve always been really fascinated, probably like Craig has as well, in what makes humans humans… And even at a very young age I remember I was probably ten, and my sister was dating this guy in high school, and he was taking psychology, and I was just fascinated… The label “Psychology” fascinated me. I said “Kerry, what is psychology all about?” And he really struggled to tell me what it was, and I kept asking him questions and he couldn’t answer them, and finally he looked at a coffee cup and he says “Okay, I’ve got it. See this coffee cup?” and I said “Yeah.” He says “I see a different coffee cup than you do.” And I’m like “Oh, this is weird.” And I said “Kerry, it’s a coffee cup.” And he says “No, it’s different. It’s called vantage point. We have different vantage points based on our experiences.” And I was still perplexed.

Then he gave me the example of “Did you ever go back to the home that you were raised in before you moved here?” And I said “Well, that’s interesting, because I recently went back.” And he says “Well, tell me about it. Was it different?” and I said “You know what, it felt really different. It felt a lot smaller than I remember it.” He says “Exactly. Because your vantage point had changed from the time you moved out to the time you went back and looked at it.” And that made so much sense to me, and had me fascinated about us as human beings, as we go through the world, our own vantage point changes so much… And then we’re interacting with all these other people who have different vantage points… How do we possibly connect? How do we possibly share the same experience?

So it made sense to me, as I moved into organizations and did work there, that the biggest breakdowns in organizations is one of communication. To see the world as another person sees it, to have the same perspective, and to be able to create the connection that’s needed in order to make the organization work.

So when I met Craig and he was doing couples work, I started getting involved in it, and I really got hooked at an early stage… Because the fascinating and really rich part of working with couples is that you have the other person in the room. When you’re working — let’s say when I was working with executives, and they would tell me about their teams, and their employees, and their peers, and their boss, it was just working with that person’s perspective, that person’s vantage point. But when you get another person in the room, with a couple, you’ve got the whole system there. And what can be done with that is really incredible.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. That’s a great segue, because our topic today is how to manage political differences in relationship… And you guys are actually a couple, right?

Debbie Lambert: Yes, yes.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Can you talk to us a little bit about what that looked like in the early stages? Did you recognize early on the differences in your political perspectives?

Craig Lambert: It didn’t really occur to me until the last election in 2016 how Debbie believed, and what she believed, and how she wanted to vote. It wasn’t high on my radar as something we’d discuss in our dating before we got married. So when that occurred, that was kind of the first awareness that I had that we were on the opposite sides of the fence. And that’s where things really started to go a little bit haywire.

We really had to pull out – and we can talk more about that – every tool that I ever had acquired in my work with couples and in psychology to help us get through that. And I know a lot of couples who didn’t get through it.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. And thanks, Craig, for just acknowledging that you are also practicing the principles that you’re teaching. I talk so much about just my own commitment to these principles as well, and how much I — it doesn’t alleviate the difficulty of confronting  a challenge, it just gives me much more faith in working the process… But we’re also on this path as well, so thank you for that.

How about for you, Debbie? Did you recognize anything early on around just those political differences?

Debbie Lambert: Well, I think that I caught on to it being a problem in our relationship past the point that it was a problem for Craig. Craig is much more political, I would say, and involved in that, that I am. So he was triggered by our differences, and I just didn’t think anything of it. And as time went on, it was apparent that there was this huge polarization in the country, and he was getting really involved on his side.

I looked at it and thought “Okay, it’s interesting”, but again, I wasn’t personally triggered by it; I just held a different opinion. And then as time kept going on, then he was coming at me, and with really a lot of triggeredness. A lot of anger. He was really getting ramped up, so it was a bit of a surprise to me when I finally saw it. So yeah, and then we just had to deal with it… But I think it caught me a little bit off-guard, because I couldn’t believe that I was actually in a relationship with somebody that was bringing his political views into the relationship.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, well I just wanna echo what you’re saying, that this is something many families, friends and couples have been negotiating over the last several years. And the polarization that you’re speaking of  — I actually have a dear family member and his significant other, that they have literally a college friend that they have been very close-knit, hanging out all the time since they were in their 20s, and they’re in their mid-late 60s… And they basically are estranged because of this very topic. So I know it can run very deep.

It sounds like for you, Craig — it was really apparent to you initially what that represents, and maybe there was a  little more… I don’t know if you would agree with this, but the political voting, or your decision and your alignment with a particular party per se maybe represents values or beliefs… And for you, Debbie, it was — not that you’re not as engaged politically; it sounds like, to some degree, you’re not as much as Craig, but you didn’t necessarily see it as such a conflict in the relationship. Is that a fair way to describe it?

Debbie Lambert: Yeah. I think that for me it’s always been that diversity of opinion brings richness into the relationship. So the fact that he held a different opinion to me was like “Okay, cool. We’ll have some interesting conversations.” But I think when it gets to the point as it had, and it has, and it continues to, where that gets blown up, and then we make judgments about the other based on their opinions, rather than being really curious about the differences, and accepting those, then that’s kind of where you go off the cliff.

We see it with our couples all the time, not necessarily with political differences, but people get really steeped in being right… And it’s really difficult for them to step into a new arena, which is more curious and more accepting of another perspective; even though they may not agree with it, they accept it and honor it, and see it as unique.

I think at the foundation of extremism is a tendency to band with those that think the same, and reinforce the opinions that you have and make them even bigger. So to have diversity of opinion and thought and accepting of diversity of opinion and thought is really at the core of rich thinking and acceptance.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I agree with you, and I’m also understanding that so many people don’t have that felt experience in relationship, so depending on perhaps your history, I would imagine this is easier to feel safe, to have different perspectives and have this richness of dialogue, because there’s already safety for that… Versus perhaps people that haven’t negotiated vast differences, or maybe the way they have negotiated it is we just don’t go there, or we fight and then just kind of go our separate ways, or we keep fighting about it, but haven’t had that richness that you’re describing.

So how about for you, Craig? It sounds like Debbie’s experiences – she was thinking it was all good, until it wasn’t all good. And then for you, there was a different thing happening.

Craig Lambert: Yeah, I kind of went off the rails emotionally. I got really triggered, and it had to do with this concept of values, of what I valued and what Debbie valued… And it felt like so different at that moment. And then what really turned it around for me – can you imagine I was at a conference with over 200 couples therapists; it was an Imago Relationship conference, and there was a lot of undercurrents about conflict that was going on between the couple therapists. They were lining up on one side or the other, and they were arguing and fighting at the conference. And it was getting pretty bad. So here we are, 200 couples therapists who are really kind of having a meltdown.

What happened was one of the leaders of the conference realized it, and said “We have to show this group how our Imago work, how our relationship couples work can really help, even in a situation like this.

They picked the couple that was really having a lot of conflict and they put it in front of the group, and all the other couples therapists circled around this one couple while one of the master therapists facilitated a conversation using the intentional dialogue, which is one of my major tools. And that’s what happened. I saw how the tools can really be effective, especially when having such high conflict issues like this. When I came home, I felt quite different.

So that was a big turnaround for me. But people were crying, really sobbing, to watch the transformation of this couple… And I got home and Debbie and I started talking, and I also became aware of another concept – maybe you can talk about it, Debbie – which is this concept of confirmation bias, which became really front and center for me.

Debbie Lambert: Yeah, I’m sure you’re familiar with that, Jessica, the notion of confirmation bias – we tend to find evidence of opinions that confirm our existing beliefs. The thing about confirmation bias is that it only gets stronger when the topic is emotionally charged. So the political scene is just a prime venue for deepening our confirmation biases, and it becomes almost impossible to break through, unless people realize what’s going on… And that is because of confirmation bias, they are biased in looking and accepting and believing and letting in those beliefs and opinions that mirror their own.

So I think once we had a conversation about that and we tried to expand, things got better… But I have to be honest with you, Jessica… I mean, even to this day, there are times when we’ll get into a conversation and then we’ll just say “Okay, we’re gonna agree to disagree”, because it does get heated. It’s an ongoing battle, I would say, or struggle to maintain that space that we try and get our couples to, which is really valuing and honoring a different opinion, because it matches yours.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I will unpack this a little bit with you guys, because I think it can be so helpful for people to have a little bit of a breakdown of this. So Debbie, when he came back from the conference and perhaps invited you into more of this intentional dialogue, had you already been recognizing “Oh, there’s some tension here that I didn’t quite realize how significant it was?” Or was this the beginning point of him trying to engage you?

Debbie Lambert: You know, it’s hard to remember back exactly, but I do remember him coming back. I don’t remember exactly where we were in our relationship with it. It was kind of an ever-evolving, ebb and flowing type of situation. But I do remember that that was a significant point, where his resistance had lessened a bit, and he did become more accepting. And he came home and he wanted to do the dialogue around it. That was a break for him, to really settle in and listen to my perspective and validate it as being valid for me, even though he may not agree with it.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: How about for you, Craig? Because I know in myself sometimes — I’m not always even aware of the feelings that  I’m having or how I’m dealing with them… Had you made attempts to try to engage Debbie prior to the conference, or did this just give you that inspiration and that opening that helped you access that intentional dialogue with Debbie?

Craig Lambert: Well, that certainly was a big moment for me to begin to recognize my own biases and my own inability to acknowledge her perspective… Because so much of the dialogue that we do in our couples therapy is about validating someone else’s perspective. And I couldn’t do that. I was really — I could feel the energy of the resistance. It was so strong and powerful. And after that conference I did begin to let down that resistance and I started to be more open.

I think another key point was when Debbie and I were on a Back-Roads trip to Japan. We were sitting at a sushi bar and we were with another couple… And a lot of times when Debbie were out, the couple we were with assumed that we were on the same political page. First, I don’t know why people make that assumption… [laughter]

Debbie Lambert: Because [unintelligible 00:22:37.12]

Craig Lambert: And we were sitting and talking, and they were really laying into the other side in such a strong way. And usually I might just sit and kind of ignore it and try to see where this goes… Debbie and I were looking at each other… So I decided I would say something, and I said something to the other couple. I said “You do realize that Debbie is of that political persuasion…” and they turned white and they said something that really upset me. They said “Wow. We thought that the group had been vetted.” That people like Debbie were vetted out.

And then even with relatives, we had a couple of experiences like that, where they made assumptions about Debbie… And I saw her also actually lose a couple of friends. It was very hard for her. It was very sad, actually.

Debbie Lambert: Yeah, friends and family members. You know, you can’t lose your family, but you can certainly change the dynamics of the relationship. And I come from a very — I’m not a staunch republican, but I voted for Trump, and I come from a family that’s very liberal. So that was shocking for everybody, and unlike Craig, they didn’t wanna listen to it. They couldn’t believe it, and they made a lot of assessments about me as a result… And it really did change the dynamic of the relationship.

Craig Lambert: And we lost a few friends.

Debbie Lambert: Yeah, we definitely lost a few friends. To me it’s a fascinating thing about human beings.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Mm-hm. And I’m also — empathy is coming out for me; we’re giggling about some of these interactions where people make assumptions, but there’s also some really significant impact and loss with having difficulty engaging in these dialogues.

So Craig, if you’re open to sharing — so it sounds like for you, what you were battling with is perhaps having a real difficult time understanding Debbie’s perspective and really validating that, and it sounds like the intentional dialogue helped you soften and meet her, and then have a dialogue that allowed you to understand and have more perspective with her… Is that right?

Craig Lambert: That’s absolutely right. It’s totally true. I wanted to begin to practice what I preach. And like you were saying, Jessica, always we have things come up in our own lives that we have an opportunity to begin to use some of the tools that we teach. And I think we really made a real strong effort at using the tools together. We actually started to have these dialogues… And if you know the dialogue, the first part is mirroring; so you just have to repeat back what you hear the person saying, and that’s often where the breakdown is, because we wanna interrupt or interject our own opinions or thoughts while the person is still speaking, and that’s really hard for a person who’s speaking to be cut off like that… And I was doing that.

So the first part was just to allow myself to listen and mirror back what Debbie was saying, for as long as it took her to say it. It could go on for 20 minutes if necessary. That takes a certain amount of discipline and containment, to be able to sit with that. And then after that, to validate her perspective. It doesn’t mean I agree with her. It just means that I’m actually able to imagine that she could think this way, and understand and validate her perspective, even if it’s diametrically different than my own.

But the hardest part is the last part, which is to have empathy, to be able to actually empathize with her perspective, like how she might feel about it. So using the tools was very helpful, and of course, I had at that time a number of couples coming in with similar problems into therapy. I had a couple of couples who came in with that as the major problem that they were facing in their lives, so I was able to practice with them as well.

And of course, Jessica, you know this comes up along with so many things, not just with political differences, but any kind of difference of opinion can create havoc in a relationship.

Debbie Lambert: Yeah… I remember my daughter was at the time in school in New York at a very liberal university, and she couldn’t believe that I voted for Trump. And when she told her classmates – she’s a journalism major… And when she told her classmates, her classmates couldn’t believe it. Everybody in that whole space is very liberal. So all of a sudden we had – or I had – some of her friends calling me  and wanting to interview me. Like, “How is it possible that you grew up the way you grew up and that you made that decision?”

I remember talking to one girl in particular, and she was talking about being in the protest lines; there was a lot of protesting right after the election. So she was asking me some really good questions, and then she was saying “You know, it’s interesting. When I’m in these protest marches, there is a feeling of resistance and anger that I’m just not comfortable with.” And I said “You know, maybe listen to that, and you could voice your opinion in areas that feel better for you.”

But I think that when we get into a state of resistance and protest, if it feels bad, it’s generally to me it’s going down the wrong path. And that happens in relationships, too. Whenever we resist something — you know, they say what you resist tends to persist. And I think the political differences really brings up a lot of resistance on both sides… But it’s such a beautiful opportunity to see it, and then we can choose to maybe go down a different path with less resistance, on either what we’re doing politically, or just in our relationships.

As I said, Craig and I sometimes get into these arguments that have a lot of resistance; you can just feel it in your body. And then that’s always a choice point. “Okay, this isn’t going so  well. Maybe we need to take a break and come back and try to connect in a more understanding space.” Because I think in the midst of resistance is a desire to connect and to understand. And as Craig pointed, we’ve got all the tools to do that, it’s just sometimes we leave them behind.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. So you’re bringing up some really great points… And I feel like there’s so much here. I wanna just ask if this was your guys’ experience, because Debbie, as you’re talking, I can so understand and relate to when we’re passionate about something and it’s so deeply connected to our values, that we do wanna take action, we do wanna be engaged to advocate and assert for those values.

At the same time, when we’re having these dialogues or we’re speaking about the confirmation bias and we’re not having the diversity conversations and the intentional dialogue, it’s easy to get swept away and have that groupthink, and it starts to take on its own other form, in this aggression and anger and really polarized and really sometimes demonizing the other side.

So I appreciate your courage and just being willing to really just own your perspective, even if it’s not popular in your sphere, and also just to really take a stand for the diversity, and that there’s really health in that.

What I have found is in these intentional dialogue, with the mirroring, the validating, and then the empathy if possible, what I have found is usually people have different things that they’re valuing, which aren’t inherently in conflict. It’s just almost like  they’re different wavelengths. This priority of health is important to me, or this priority of freedom… And sometimes on the surface they can look really conflictual, but at the heart of it they can be collaborative. I just am curious if you guys have anything to say to that.

Debbie Lambert: Yeah, I love that, Jessica, because it’s so true – at the heart of what we’re talking about, we agree. It’s just how we get there we might disagree. So the breakdown comes when we focus on the disagreement, rather than — in neurolinguistic programming (NLP) we talk about the concept of chunking up. So if I care about — like, look at our current health crisis; I may disagree about the distribution of masks, but if I chunk up, we all care about keeping everybody safe. So there’s a failure to chunk up, to find that commonality, and there’s a real focus on where we disagree.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, because if we’re in alignment of our values, then perhaps we’re gonna have different ways that we’re gonna try to get those values met, or support those values… But perhaps it’s not gonna be at the heart of it so contentious.

Debbie Lambert: Exactly. It’s always important to find out where we agree, but it’s just not natural for people. We have a tendency to focus on what’s going wrong. I always say to my couples — I always remind them, but many of them are too young to even remember… But there was this guy, Ken Blanchard, who wrote The One Minute Manager… Do you remember that, Jessica?

Dr. Jessica Higgins: No.

Debbie Lambert: Okay, you’re too young. But anyhow, it was a really popular management book at the time, and it was  a really thin one. The core message of that was “Catch people doing things right, and let them know about it”, versus catching them doing things wrong and yelling at them about it.

I think that’s at the core of these breakdowns – we look for where we disagree, and we expand and accentuate that rather than find areas where we agree. And again, in this current health crisis I see it all over the place. I see people pointing out things that should have been done, that could have been done, that we’re not doing… There’s this real fascination with disagreement, rather than really celebrating the wins that we’re having, and the things that people are doing right. There’s so many amazing, courageous stories that are happening in the midst of this crisis, that don’t get talked about as much as the complaining.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right. I think the negative bias, or even the threat that will happen does trigger a lot of emotion, and I know you guys talk about that, so I’m gonna pivot there in a moment… But Craig, I wanna get your input on this, because you were saying on surface level – and so were you, Debbie – that it’s easy to make assumptions, and part of this intentional dialogue is perhaps slowing down, even when we’re threatened… Because Debbie, like you’re saying, if we’re noticing those negative things and we feel threatened, it’s easy to react to that… And the meaning we’re making around it when perhaps it maybe isn’t as threatening as we first thought… So Craig, can you speak to that at all? Because you were saying initially with Debbie you felt like some of those value — you were maybe worried or threatened that some of your values were really different.

Craig Lambert: Yeah, it’s hard to say what exactly the values were. I think I was falling into this concept of being  a spiritual human being. When I think politically, I think Dalai Lama, the head of Tibet. I think of — what’s his name, from South Africa?

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nelson Mandela.

Craig Lambert: Nelson Mandela. That’s the kind of leadership I prayed for and I think of. So my value is one of a  person that is connected to their soul, to their heart, in a deep way… And actually, it’s visible. You can see it being presented. And that was really just so challenging for me, and I didn’t understand how other people didn’t see that that wasn’t being presented nationally… And it just felt like such a disservice to our country, to me, and it was really painful. Because Obama to me in many ways depicted that – the heart was out there.

So what I started to understand and come to terms with was, like we were saying, Debbie’s perspective was very different. And I have friends who voted for Trump whose perspectives were very different, and I became more curious, and I started to ask more questions, and I started to try to understand what were they thinking and what were the reasons that they felt they could align with that.

It got clearer to me that most of the people — a lot of them who were aligning with president Trump were more connected to policy, and I was more connected to personality. So I could begin to see that, and I started to see that, I started to be more curious about what were those policies. We could have disagreements about the policies (that was easier), but I was not able to have a disagreement about the personality, because that to me was black and white. And of course, I was having so much confirmation bias in terms of my own perspective on president Trump’s mental health. I was diagnosing him, and… It was pretty difficult. I have to say, it’s still pretty difficult… [laughter] But I’ve learned. I’ve learned to respect Debbie’s perspective and to have more compassion and understanding for it, and it’s just gone so far in our relationship. I feel like I’m really able to practice what I preach, and that’s the main thing.

Debbie Lambert: And I have to say, my experience on the receiving end of that – it was quite noticeable, the shift… And I don’t know if it really happened – it seems like it did – at that conference he went to… But there was a noticeable and ever-increasing shift on Craig’s part to become more curious, and ask questions. He struggled with it, and it wasn’t like a switch that went off, but it was a realization that if I’m more curious, I expand myself, and I become richer in my perspective.

I don’t think that either one of us could say that we share the same perspective, but I can say that we’re both curious and more accepting than we were in the beginning. How does a couple get there? I think it really starts with setting an intention. It’s saying that “When I hold tightly to my perspective, I’m shedding out possibility of another perspective, that if I let in, could perhaps enrich/enlighten… It might not change it completely, but it may shed some light on my own perspective.” If I set an intention to become curious and let that in, in as open a way as possible, then I realize that my perspective will enrich. And I think that we both did that.

I think that we both said “Okay, I really wanna listen and understand, and I’m gonna settle down in my own perspective-taking and meaning, so that I can allow understanding.”

Craig Lambert: Yeah, and I think, Jessica, there were two quotes that really were very powerful for me. Actually, three quotes. One was by Friedrich Nietzsche, that there are no facts, only interpretations. That was very helpful to me. The other one was one of my mentors’, his name is Terry Real; he said that there’s no objective reality in relationships. And then my other mentor, Harville Hendricks, said “You can be right, or you can be in relationship.”

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, for sure… So beautiful. I love that you guys were both able to practice these principles, even when it was so activating and challenging. It sounds like a little more for you in this topic, Craig… But also knowing — you know, when a partner feels threatened and is having a difficult time, if one person is not okay, it’s hard to feel that the relationship is okay. So it’s a big impact all around.

Before we wrap up, I know we could probably do a whole episode on this in and of itself, but can you guys give – and maybe Craig, you could start – about when you do feel so triggered, or when you do  feel so threatened, how do you manage those high emotions to then be able to be more curious? How do you navigate that?

Craig Lambert: Yeah, that’s the million-dollar question… [laughter] I laugh, because basically that’s the issue we deal with in couples therapy, day in and day out. Of course, first of all, I think it takes individual effort and taking responsibility for your own being, so that you’re able to understand that your goal in relationship is to be loving, to be kind, to be connected, to create safety. And if you’re able to manage your own emotions around things, you’re gonna have a better shot at that happening.

So it starts with yourself, of course. You have to have strategies and techniques to learn how to calm yourself down when you’re really getting triggered. But within the context of the relationship itself, I think the key is that you have a strategy that allows you to recognize that what we call deep listening, or what my teacher calls intentional dialogue, needs to happen in relationship. We typically listen with the intent to respond or reply, rather than listen with the intent of just deeply listening.

So I think intellectually we need to grapple with the idea of what makes  a connection in a relationship, what makes us feel heard, what makes us feel connected, what makes us feel safe… And oftentimes, it’s the ability to allow two very different perspectives to coexist, and for us to be able to hear the other person’s perspective… And that just simply requires breathing, quieting down, and if possible, mirroring the person, what you hear them saying, try to see if you understand where they’re coming from, validating their perspective. So those are some tools I think every couple needs, and one of my missions is to teach that to every couple I come in contact with.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Lovely. Debbie, do you wanna add anything on that?

Debbie Lambert: Well, I think that your question is a good one, and like Craig said, it’s at the heart of a lot of breakdowns that we see, that we personally witness or we hear about. I have a couple thoughts on it. One is if people get really activated, they already have so much momentum going down the wrong path, the path of resistance. So your question is really “How do I stop that?” Craig’s solution is a good one, if a couple can do it. If they can settle down and — I would say a really skilled couple could probably do it.

But even us – and you could maybe consider us a skilled couple – we can’t always do it. If we’re really activated, there’s just too much momentum. So a couple of things… One is that, you know, we have a real focus on trying to keep it light, and fun, and funny. So if he does something that he’s just going down the wrong path – and it works both ways – I may just stop my foot and say something ridiculous, like “You’re just a nincompoop”. Just to change the energy into a more playful, fun energy. And I’ll stomp my foot like I’m five years old. And then he’ll just laugh. So we’ve broken the pattern of resistance, going down the rabbit hole.

Craig Lambert: The other thing about that I just wanna add is that childhood wounds play a big role in this, and Debbie knows my childhood wounds very well. Childhood wounds are those unmet needs in childhood that get triggered when we get into an argument… And since Debbie is so familiar with mine, she’s able to play on the edges of that.

For example, when I get pretty opinionated and pretty strong, she knows that’s a part of my father coming out, and she’ll call me by his first name, Jack. And it kind of stops me–

Debbie Lambert: I’ll say “Jack has entered the building.”

Craig Lambert: And it kind of stops me in my tracks, which is great.

Debbie Lambert: Yeah. But I try to do it in a playful way.

Craig Lambert: In a playful, loving way. So I think being aware of each other’s wounds and triggers is a really key part of this.

Debbie Lambert: But the other part, Jessica, I think is — you  know, again, because you build momentum in the wrong direction, and sometimes it’s just impossible to stop it. So the question is how do you exit the conversation with respect and with maintaining as much connection as possible. And what we tell our couples is — you know, a lot of times I’ll ask “What do you do when this happens, when you’re in such conflict?”, and the guy will say “Well, I just leave.” I say “Well, tell me how you leave.” “Well, I just walk out and slam the door.” It’s like, “Okay, let’s talk about leaving.” That will maintain the connection.

So the important part if you’re gonna leave, which I think sometimes is the best thing, is to say to your partner “Listen, this isn’t working. I need to calm down, but I really wanna have this conversation with you when I’m in a better place. So can I leave, and can we do this in about a couple of hours or tomorrow? But I really care about listening to you.”

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Beautiful. I love that. It’s attending to, perhaps like  you’re saying, Craig, some of those even attachment tendencies or wounds, of like “You’re leaving… You’re not coming back… What does that mean?!” Or even what you’re describing with the stomping the foot, it’s like — you know, Gottman talks about the bids, and kind of shifting that connection… So I love what you guys are offering.

How can people get in touch with what you’re up to and what you’re offering? I know you have a book that you guys wrote, “The Mindful Couple.” Can you tell people how they could get that, and get in touch with you?

Craig Lambert: Yeah, the book is great, because it gives exercises; actually, practical exercises. We came up with 52, one  a week, but you don’t have to do them in order. You can open up the book and there’s a whole table of contents with all kinds of issues and concerns that couples have. Go right to that particular one, and there’s a wonderful exercise you can practice together. So it’s kind of like having your own therapist in your house. So you can get that book on Amazon, and–

Debbie Lambert: I would say it’s — it’s “The Mindful Couple: 52 Tips to Real Love and Connection”, because I think there is another Mindful Couple one.

Craig Lambert: It’s 52 Strategies.

Debbie Lambert: 52 Strategies.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And I’ll have the link on today’s show notes for people to access easily. What else are you guys up to and how can they get in touch with that?

Debbie Lambert: Well, we’ve just started because of this Coronavirus — we wanted to have a venue for connecting people, and clients, and friends, so we started this thing called Mindful Mondays. It’s from 7 to 8 PM, or 7 to 7:45. We talk about some tips from the books, we talk about some concerns, and usually — we’ve only done two, but each one has had a theme. Our last one was “How to have fun in the midst of this”, for the sake of the relationship, but also for the sake of staying healthy… Because having fun actually increases our immunity.

So each week we’ll be thinking about what’s the most appropriate topic… But most importantly, just answering the concerns of the callers.

Craig Lambert: It’s on Zoom, Jessica, and to find it, you would just go to Craig Lambert Therapy right now. We’re in the process of rebranding to Lambert Couples Therapy, but for the moment you just go on Craig Lambert Therapy, and you’ll be able to get a link and ask for a request to be scheduled for the Zoom… Or you could just send me your email address if anybody is interested in getting on, to [email protected]

We have our mailing list, it goes out to about 3,000 people, so we’re starting to get quite a few people come online for this Mindful Monday Zoom call, and it’s been wonderful to have that support for everyone. And it’s free, of course.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love the name, and I love the space that you’re creating for people to get more support and more guidance in navigating so  much of what feels challenging these days, and then also what gets activated in relationship.

Well, thank you both so much for spending the time with us today, and all that you’ve offered and all that you continue to offer.

Debbie Lambert: Thank you, Jessica. Thanks for having us. It’s really been wonderful to share this space with you, and thank you for your podcast and all that you’re doing for your listeners.

Craig Lambert: Yes, thank you very much, Jessica. It’s wonderful to speak to you, and we hope to get to meet you one day.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, that would be fun!

I hope you have enjoyed today’s episode, again, with Craig and Debbie Lambert. If you’re interested, again, in the links mentioned, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast, and you can find all the links mentioned on the show. Again, today’s episode is 212, “How to manage political differences in relationship.”

You’ll also find a guide, “Shifting criticism into connected communication.” As you heard in today’s interview, so often when we are threatened or perhaps feel a sense of judgment towards our significant other, it’s easy to use criticism as a tendency, or perhaps even a protest. If we’re feeling threatened in our value, or something important to us is feeling at jeopardy, then we may protest with criticism to get our partner’s attention. The danger in this and the challenge of this is your partner will not know what’s threatening to you, or what you’re needing or what’s deeply valuable. They’re hearing the criticism, which is about them, and they’re likely to be defensive, which can put us off on this route. And as Debbie was saying, the momentum of that disconnect pattern can be strong. And over time, this can be detrimental to the relationship.

So I encourage you to check out that guide if you’re interested in getting support in “Shifting criticism into connected communication.” Again, this can be found on today’s show notes. Again, today’s episode is 212, “How to manage political differences in relationship”, which can be found on my website, DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast and you can find all the episodes listed there.

Until next time, I hope you take great care.

*   *   *

            You’ve been listening to Empowered Relationship, your relationship guide. Remember to take a moment to write a review and subscribe today. You can also get your free relationship gift by visiting DrJessicaHiggins.com.

Return to Show Notes