Welcome to The Empowered Relationship Podcast, helping you turn relationship challenges into opportunities and setting you up for relationship success. Your host, Dr. Jessica Higgins, is a licensed psychologist and relationship coach who shares valuable tips, tools and resources for you to dramatically improve your relationship.
This podcast is 100% ad-free. To support this show, please subscribe and write a review today. Here is your host.
* * *
Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 214, “How to advance the development of your relationship”, an interview with Dr. Tom Habib. Before we get started, I wanna take a moment and center with you as you are tuning into this episode, exploring the developmental path of couplehood and all that’s involved in that. Perhaps you have a question, or something you’re pondering about your relationship, or wherever you are in the journey of developing a relationship. I know some of my most profound relationship inner work that I have done is not only when I was grieving a love relationship and really trying to heal from a breakup, but really looking at all that was involved in that for me.
Also, when I was preparing to enter into partnership, contemplating dating again, and having been single for a period of time, and really, as I’ve said, preparing myself in the principles and practices that I was gonna hold myself accountable to, and being really clear about the type and the quality of the connection that I wanted to participate in. So I wanna just acknowledge just wherever you are in this journey, that it’s all welcome, and again, to honor that.
And as I’m centering with you, I want to hold the intention to the Empowered Relationship podcast. And that is discussions, interviews, tips, tools, resources, stories that I have to share with you are all in the interest of supporting you to feel better prepared, more equipped, more educated on what is involved in the process of developing a long-term intimate, life-giving, connected, authentic, joyful, passionate relationship. We’re looking at the journey of this, and that there are stages, and we’re gonna be talking about that more today.
If you would like access to today’s show notes, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast, and you can find all the episodes listed there. Again, today’s episode is 214, “How to advance the development of your relationship”, an interview with Dr. Tom Habib.
If you’ve been listening to this show for a period of time, I am certain you have heard me talk about the stages of relationship, or perhaps the development and things that are involved; and my very intention of offering this show is for you to be a little more aware of what all might be involved in this terrain of long-term intimacy. And in support of this, years ago I created a free guide, “The development of intimacy.” It’s titled “Relationship map to happy, lasting love.” I think this could be a nice complement to today’s conversation. If you’re interested in accessing that, again, you can go to today’s show notes, which can be found on my website, DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast, and you can find all the links mentioned there.
In today’s conversation, Tom also is speaking from an integral perspective, and I have had a couple other guests speak to integral theory. I’ll make sure to put those episodes on today’s show notes as well, so you can have a little more context if you’re new to integral theory. Again, on my website, DrJessicaHiggins.com, today’s episode, 214.
Let’s get started in today’s episode.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Dr. Tom Habib is a clinical psychologist specializing in couple’s therapy. Tom has published papers on a Couple’s Line of Development (Integral Leadership Review, Aug-Nov, 2016, revised 2018) in addition to other publications on other topics.
He has presented at the Integral Theory Conference, at the Integral European Conference where he was recognized for the Best Practitioner Paper, Honorable Mention. Tom is currently serving as the chair for the International Consortium of Integral Scholars for the IEC.
Tom has been recognized by Academia.edu as achieving the top 1% researcher in recognition of how often his work is reviewed by researchers all over the world.
Dr. Tom Habib, thank you for joining us today!
Dr. Tom Habib: I’ve been looking forward to this, Jessica. It’s always great to have a dialogue with somebody who gets deep in the weeds in intimacy.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I know, and I love having people come from different backgrounds and different perspectives, and being that you’re a person that offers so much in the realm of integral theory and then how that relates to couplehood, I just think it’s such a gift to have you on the show. Thank you.
Dr. Tom Habib: You’re welcome.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay, so if you can give people a little bit of background about you and what got you interested in this topic, or studying this, I think that would be nice for people who maybe don’t already know you, to just connect with you a little bit.
Dr. Tom Habib: Yeah, as you read in the bio, my specialty is working with couples, and looking at the higher stages of intimacy, and what it possibly can look like down the road, as we mature and we’re able to settle different things out. But to back up a little bit, Jessica, why I got into couples therapy is kind of an interesting story. When I was 18, my best friend was getting married, which just panicked me. I refused to be his best man, and I’ll never forget my words. I said “I’m not gonna participate in a bourgeoisie activity supported by the [unintelligible 00:06:49.09].” So I refused to be his best man, and I talked my girlfriend out who was going to be the maid of honor from participating, too.
Years later we’re still friends, so it’s survived that little faux pas. They still joke with me how I became so well known in couples… And part of the reason was I was really afraid of marriage, and I didn’t realize that until deep into graduate school, doing my personal growth work… And my therapist asked me “Tom, why are you studying marital satisfaction?” and it hit me like a brick, and obviously I was very tearful in that moment… But I realized I was moving towards what I was afraid of, and trying to master my own life, which was going to be the next step for me. So it’s been 35 years or so since then, and a lot has changed, both personally and professionally.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: What’s the saying… “What we resist, persists”, and it ends up being one of our best teachers sometimes… So thank you for sharing that. Okay, so talk to us a little bit about what you’re gonna be sharing with us today.
Dr. Tom Habib: I wanna share a couple’s line of development. Many of your listeners know different developmental lines. I know you’ve had podcasters on… So if we look at a child’s developmental line, we know they go from newborn, to infant, to toddler, to pre-school, to elementary student, pre-teen, teenagers… And every one of them have different tasks that must be mastered, both for the individual child and also for the parent. Even societies have developmental lines – ancient, pre-modern, modern, post-modern, and integral… And it helps to look at things at a developmental level, because you begin to understand what’s the task at each level that I have to be able to master, both individually and with my spouse, in order to achieve the highest stages. What I’m known for in integral is developing a couples developmental line. So if I can move on…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Let’s do it!
Dr. Tom Habib: If I said that all types of couple intimacy is dependent upon each person’s individual developmental history, the good and the bad they went through, their ability to up-regulate and down-regulate their physiology. Now, up-regulate means can you be open to deep intimacy, or do you get flooded in that moment, and can you down-regulate anger, so that you can think. I know you like Guttmann’s work, Jessica, and the ability to just stay on top of that physiology problem-solving is important.
Another really important issue is the cultural expectations. One of them is we’re all immersed in a culture where we always imagine love greater than our individual ability to achieve it. And that might be a little bit disappointing, but what we’re talking about is the ideal right there, and how we live in relationship to it. And then finally, the strength of the couple patterns and the rules they lay down have a lot to do with how the relationship unfolds.
I know you probably recognize – and other people – that I really went through the quadrants for a couple, just mentioning some of the items in it. So if I could rewrite the marital vows – and I’m still doing a little bit of quadrant issues for the listener that understands a little bit of integral… This is what I would rewrite for marital vows: “Will you take the temper tantrums, the sensitivity, the overreactions, the insecurities, the character defects, the control issues, the unrealistic expectations, the unresolved family issues and the uncontrolled regressions, for better or for worse?” At least I got the last part correct, “for better or for worse”. [laughs] Don’t you see all those issues emerging with a couple when you’re doing therapy?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Absolutely… And myself. I’ve been with my husband for almost 14 years and I can recognize all of these aspects in myself that I’ve had to work… So yes.
Dr. Tom Habib: It’s amazing how unprepared we are still at this time in order to enter the most challenging relationship… I’ve heard you say before that one of the benefits of an intimate relationship – you’ll grow. So to quote Rumi, the 13th century Persian poet for intimate couples, “Your task is not to seek love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” And we know that from working with couples we can actually see that, the barriers; they say they want intimacy, but then at the same moment they do something to prohibit it or to change a moment. So I wanna move on to the couples line, so that we can get a feel for it, the five stages…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes.
Dr. Tom Habib: …and I wanna briefly describe each stage.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay. And before you do that, I would love to just let people know, Tom, if there’s a way that people can get a visual… Because I know you provide so much wealth and depth and richness here. So is there something that you’re gonna be able to share with me that can give a visual for any of this?
Dr. Tom Habib: Yeah, absolutely. If they wanna pause the podcast and go on my website, DrTomHabib.com, and you’ll see the charts that I’m describing right now. So you wanna look at the couples line chart, and then you wanna look at the contrast between stage four and stage five chart. There’s a beautiful color chart on the website they can watch.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay, perfect.
Dr. Tom Habib: So love starts at stage one, and I call that safety and attraction. This is a wonderful stage. It’s wonderful, romantic feelings, there’s chemistry, powerful attraction, emotional enthusiasm, fueled by bodily sensations… And we’re just hoping that it never ends. That early relationship, before reality sets in.
All the romantic movies usually stop at this stage… Because boy meets girl, or boy meets boy, and they’re incredibly in love before reality hits. In part, the society doesn’t know where to go. So at the heart of this stage is a pre/trans fallacy. And I don’t wanna say too much about it, other than what I’ve just described.
This early stage has a lot more to do with the projection of the ideal, our fantasy of what love can be, rather than much more developed empathy and understanding that comes down the road, and the much deeper love that comes down the road. So that is the heart of pre/trans fallacy. What throws us out of the safety and attraction stage is stage two, the roles stage, is reality.
He may be non-communicative, she might be irritable, he may be withdrawn, she may be upset at something, and when they have to deal with all the reality of laying down the different roles they’ll play, “How do we interact as lovers with the community? How do we become a father or a mother? How do we function as husband and wife?” All the different roles of sharing and give and take – that has to be laid down.
I think we recognize that you and I oftentimes get people in the roles stage, and we’re trying to develop these functional patterns of how to handle the intensity in feeling, how not to overreact and get hijacked by the amygdala when something goes wrong… And when we’ve laid down all those patterns, they begin to learn how to communicate; the roles become flexible, they can actually exchange who does what, when, and the cream rises to the top. Then they’re at stage three, the relational stage. And usually, when we get to that relational stage, we call it a day. Most couples are doing well, they’re not fighting, they can give and take… But at both stage two, the role stage, stage three, the relational stage, these two persistent fantasies couples have. The first one is — because remember, it’s safety and attraction. They have that fantasy that love can be a constant. Love cannot be a constant. Commitment is the constant. Love ebbs and flows. Is that what you find too, Jessica?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. So often — like you mentioned, Gottman and possibly these irreconcilable differences, whether or not it’s related to temperament… One likes to explore, one likes to me home-bodied, or you have the extrovert/introvert, or the spender/the saver, these types of things that perhaps may not change, but it’s maybe how we work together, and I think a lot of couples — you know, there’s another developmental model around couples, and I think the second stage is the power struggle stage, when we recognize “Oh, you’re not who I imagined you to be, or who I projected you, or fantasized you to be.”
So we have to work with these differences, and so much of the impulse tends to be out of the gate. “If you would be different” or “I’ll try to change myself. One of us has to change for this to work.” But I’m wondering if part of what you’re describing in this coming to stage three is learning how to have ways to work together, or… I don’t know, maybe it’s compromise, maybe other times it’s “I’ll take the lead in this realm, and you take the lead in that realm…” Is that what we’re talking about, or is it different, as you’re saying, the stage two and the roles?
Dr. Tom Habib: Well, for the most part, yes. That’s when we’re talking about a relational stage – there is a quid pro quo, there’s a give and take working on… But the two persistent fantasies create that very pressure that you just touched upon, “If only you could be this. You’re not the person that I married.”
So let me say the two fantasies. The first fantasy is “Other people get to live that safety and attraction, and I don’t.”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: A-ha…
Dr. Tom Habib: And look at the cultural messages out there – it’s just a matter of finding the right person. And it is. You’ve gotta do the work to get to where love becomes stronger and more of a constant, that we’re gonna talk about in the fourth stage, first love.
The other persistent fantasy is “I’ve married the wrong person.” And what you touched upon a little bit in terms of some of the complementary functions in a relationship – those are actually good. You’ve recognized them as much as I had, that complementary functions, because it fills out my abilities with the other person.
One of the ones I have with my own wife is I tend to be a little bit more emotional, she tends to be a little bit more stable and easygoing. And together, that’s a really good combination, because she’s able to interject stability when we need it, and I can reach depth in emotions. And we do that. You’ve probably seen couples do that; what complements them is what they fight with down the road, to some degree… And until they resolve some of the issues of relational, and they’re able to let go of the fantasy that the early relationship is the direction they’re supposed to look towards.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right. I love that. I wanna underscore that.
Dr. Tom Habib: Yes.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I think social media also, not only just movies and television and all the different ways we’re getting these cultural messages… But the highlight reel that we get on social media I think even further perpetuates that fantasy.
Dr. Tom Habib: Right. And it just isn’t in that direction. Some people blow up their life in order to get back there… And admittedly so, it’s a very powerful time, and a powerful feeling, but remember, it’s not based on empathy and understanding, it’s really chemistry and physical attraction. It had an evolutionary purpose once. That’s very powerful, and we haven’t evolved beyond it, to look ahead to see what lies ahead. But the good news is there’s really good stuff ahead, that we’re gonna touch on.
First love is where things begin to change. And one of the ways I wanna introduce first love is what occurred to me that helped me develop this couples line. One of my clinical observations was “Why can a couple do 85% of their relationship well, and it’s the 15% wrong that becomes approximately 80% of how they evaluate their relationship?” Have you had that feeling, too?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I’ve had clients tell me that very thing, but I think they’ve even put it in 5% or 10%. But that can be the most important part.
Dr. Tom Habib: Right. And when I thought that through, you can feel where I was beginning to understand the early stages and that pre-transcendent fallacy, that all you have to do is marry the right person, and fall in love, and it’s gonna persist forever, and they lived happily ever after. It’s embedded in our childhood stories, no wonder we have difficulty liberating ourselves from it. But it feeds all of that, so one more thought in order to introduce a first love, the fourth stage after relational… And this is a thought experiment, and it has to do with gratitude also.
Imagine if you were sick and your neighbor picked up their kids from school. She/he cooked them dinner, they get a few loads of laundry, they vacuumed, they did the dishes, they went to the grocery store… How would you feel about that neighbor? Most of us would feel so indebted we couldn’t wait to reciprocate. But when you think of the 85% of what our spouses do at the relational stage, when things are going well, our spouses are the good neighbor, but we don’t live in that abundance and gratitude. I’m sure other people have talked about it. That’s one of the necessary conditions to get into the first love. But I’m gonna add a few more in addition to abundance and gratitude.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay.
Dr. Tom Habib: Another one is “Are you aware of your inner world?” Can you feel the subtle aspects of yourself and other people? And then number three, if you’re aware of your inner world, then you have a much more ability to go transparent, because this is where people build that wall that Rumi talked about… It’s at the exposure level. The physiology goes through the roof. Have you seen that with couples?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Absolutely. Yes, the flooding, and the triggered, and the reactivity…
Dr. Tom Habib: Exactly. They say they want it, but the overexposure in that moment is what prohibits that deeper level of connection.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And probably their coping strategies. You were saying something really important, not only with that abundance mindset, but the inner awareness, and then the transparency… Because if the coping strategies have always been around “Well, I’m gonna turn away” or “I’m gonna reach for food or a drink” or whatever the coping strategy is, then it’s more hiding, and more of those barriers.
Dr. Tom Habib: Exactly. I would think that those people aren’t as familiar with their inner world as they need to be… Because you and I have seen couples — like, if one of the spouses makes a read on them, and it feels like sudden overexposure and they don’t feel safe, the bonding isn’t strong enough to contain the intensity of that moment, you and I have heard them go “I don’t do it all the time. You do it sometimes, too.” As if they’re guilty of murder, or something. And all it is is a level of exposure and an inability to really trust that person in that moment.
Now, a lot of people — I’ve heard you quote Susan Johnson, and bonding, and everything… I think that work is useful, but if we don’t identify the challenges ahead, and how you actually do this, then theoretical concepts – of course, they’re correct, but people need a roadmap of “What do I do in those moments? How do I show up?” And I’m gonna go a lot more granular as we go along with this, in doing it… But in part, what we’re doing on this transparency at this moment, and overexposure, is we’re kind of showing people that have a solid relationship – what is the challenge going to be to get to stage four, first love? Because I do believe this is accessible for some couples that are doing pretty well.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I’m just curious, on the Susan Johnson note – I mean, she does have a whole modality in helping people unpack and get to those core feelings in the interest of revealing maybe core emotions, rather than the secondary emotions… But I’m so interested in where you’re going, or if you wanna say any more about the Susan Johnson…
Dr. Tom Habib: You know, a little bit of Susan Johnson’s work and Harville Hendricks’ work – one of the most frequent ways couples access intimacy is through the wound. Hendricks, as you know, is really famous for that. And usually, that means something went wrong. But why do we always do that? I can feel men collectively rolling their eyes, going “Oh, what did I screw up now?” And we don’t always have [unintelligible 00:28:07.18] intimacy through the wound… Because when we get people to understand how do you show up in life — Ken Wilbert has a nice phrase… “The ability to show up fully means that you have cleaned up, you’ve grown up, and you’ve woken up.” Have you heard that before?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes…
Dr. Tom Habib: So when you come together with that, you understand you have a certain amount of unconscious and shadow, and your spouse is gonna be better at seeing the forest despite the trees, and you don’t overreact; there’s enough trust not to overreact to that moment… Then the enlightenment really starts to build, because — and I’m anticipating the fifth stage a little bit here… Because when they reveal something, you begin to go “Whoa, I didn’t even see that. Say more. Wow! Keep talking.” Because you’re aware that it’s always unfolding… And when you can unfold it with two people, it really gets exciting.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And do you think that the delivery is important at these stages?
Dr. Tom Habib: It absolutely is. At the relational stage we begin to master the empathy, and we begin to feel into what our spouse is saying… So it develops a container of trust, where further exploration is possible. But remember – a part of what I said upfront – what excites me is what’s down the road… Because somehow I’ve gotta dislodge all the pre/trans fallacy that is ubiquitous in our culture right now… Because people are looking in the wrong direction, and they’re even blowing up their lives because they’re so hungry for the connection. Does that make sense?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes.
Dr. Tom Habib: Okay. So on the spiritual stage, which is the fifth stage – and I’ve never seen a couple here. I can’t do this with my wife. I’m married to a psychologist also… It’s kind of interesting, because we can float from the relational to first love, but our center of gravity isn’t first love… And I’ll talk more about how people can do that as we get further down. But I’ve never seen a couple, and I can’t do the spiritual stage with my wife, so I’m really speculating what this stage looks like… And part of this stage is this couple is really familiar with their interior world, whereas initially where shadow would have created some contraction – at spiritual love it just becomes a matter of “Whoa, I didn’t see that.”
At first love there’s some ability to look at yourself, but in spiritual love the transparency is there in a moment, and each person can adjust very quickly to that exposure. Kind of interesting… All along in the first four stages couples are always looking for affirmation. Remember the five languages of love? Of course, they’re always there, but at spiritual love it’s more unitive diversity. So they’re united, but they’re celebrating the diversity. They’re not always looking for affirmation, they’re not always looking for consensus. They’ve really moved on, and there’s an acceptance of the differences.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Much more flexibility perhaps…
Dr. Tom Habib: Yeah, a lot more flexibility. It’s probably an integral parlance, it’s probably a third tier capability of the ability to really move there. People can get the chart that I’m looking at right now, the couples line of development, that contrasts stage four with stage five. In stage four there’s a much easier acceptance of Hendricks’ wounds by the partner. They don’t catastrophize those. That doesn’t become absolute chaos. They recognize there’s gonna be ruptures, and it’s so easily achieved. Even at stage three they do a lot better, they [unintelligible 00:33:06.25] If something goes wrong, they go “Fine. Fine.” And as Gottman says, if it’s too hot to handle, they get some distance, they recover… At stage four they’re just kind of blowing that off a little bit more, and they self-soothe.
At stage five, the attunement becomes so good that there’s rare wounding by each partner. They’re aware of the deep subtleties in each other and they can move on and do that. So again, this is on my website, DrTomHabib.com, and you can hear a description of it… In fact, there’s a lot of audio podcasts and whatnot available, that people can access to learn more about this. Any questions right here?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah. You had mentioned – and you might be going here now, but the center of gravity and how to recognize where that lies.
Dr. Tom Habib: Yeah. Well, recognizing this center of gravity — I mean, if you’re battling all the time, then you’re not out of the roles stage. And if you’re constantly going back to the same issues over and over again, and they’re wearing you out, you’re still at the roles stage, and it’d be a good idea to get a mediator, or a good psychologist that can help you form that up, so you can get into the relational stage. Because once you’re in the relational stage, now you can get into first love. And I’m gonna give really specifics of how to do that.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Let’s do that.
Dr. Tom Habib: Okay. So do you do eye contact exercises at all with couples, or…?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes.
Dr. Tom Habib: It’s interesting, sometimes when I’m working with a couple, I will pixie-dust them with the highest stage of development, just so they can get a feel of what lies ahead… And it’s very interesting, because sometimes on the eye contact exercises — so for the listener, for example I might give a couple stuck at the roles stage an eye contact exercise where they have to look at each other for 30 seconds and not blink, or smile, or look away. And some people practically levitate on the couch. They’re going “Don’t make me do that. I don’t wanna do that.” And you can feel Rumi’s blocks that they’re confronting. Other people are a lot better at it, in doing that.
So once I get that down, then what I’ll assign for them to do at home – and all the listeners can do this – is… You know when we’re watching one of those romantic movies and it gets through a very poignant moment, and we’re feeling it, we wanna cry, oftentimes we’re choking back those tears, and we’re looking away from our spouse… What you do ahead of time is you agree that for 30 seconds we’re gonna pause the video and I’m gonna hold my spouse’s eye contact with them. And I’m not gonna look away. At that moment, I’m laying down the circuitry capable of handling that type of emotional amperage. Can you feel that, how powerful that becomes?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes… I cry very easily, and I’m very moved and touched easily, and so so often when these moments occur my husband’s already looking over at me and watching me, and I think he’s naturally even just drawn to that, even though we’re watching a movie… But that would be really sweet, to turn off or pause and just engage in one another in that energy.
Dr. Tom Habib: Right, because there’s so many things going on in those moments. There’s moments of trust, there’s moments of transparency, you’re coming down the physiology of the exposure… All the notions we grow up with, especially men, with shame around tearful feelings, and those deep feelings… And once a couple begins to do that, around the 7th or 8th time they don’t even need that external source of energy to do it. That external source I call resonance. It’s resonant energy that we can feel, and what we’re doing is to develop coherence between a couple.
Coherence means that when I enter that space with you, and you and I maybe can feel some discoherence at this moment, because we’ve been in these situations before and recognize the resonant energy, the coherence is that I don’t even need that external resonance anymore. I can look at my spouse and return to that moment. Can you feel that with me, Jessica?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Absolutely, absolutely. I’m wondering too if having intentions, or you were even saying vows, or if we’ve had experiences, or even the abundant mindset – I wonder if that can also be a form of resonance and coherency, if couples have had experiences with that and then can set that tone almost and enter into sharing and presence in that.
Dr. Tom Habib: Absolutely. I like what you mean by both intention and vows… But when you set this as a goal, and you can get through the giggles initially and trust it – yeah, ahead of time, having that intention with your spouse… Because it only gets better once you can settle it down.
When I was developing this, my wife gave me a really good insight. She said “Tom, in order to do this with you, I have to be able to compartmentalize (and I know you use that word) the lower parts of yourself in those moments when you’re not in this place.” And of course, that’s crucial. And at the lower stages, all that floods up in that moment of vulnerability and transparency. But how are we gonna hit the highest stages, unless we compartmentalize some of it?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: So in other words, perhaps our issue about such-and-such bill, or thing that we’re trying to resolve – I’m making that up, obviously… But if we’re not resolved around it, I’m gonna put a compartment around that, so that I can be with you in the way that you’re showing up, rather than like “I’m still mad at you, and I’m gonna hold a grudge and I’m not gonna go there, because I am gonna stick my heels in the ground” type of thing. Is that what you’re referring to?
Dr. Tom Habib: Yes, absolutely. Is that how you use intention — you used intention, and what was the other word?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, you had mentioned vows earlier. And I do think that at some point — you know, so often I think in those early stages, perhaps in that first stage we create these vows… And they’re aspirational, but they’re not guiding, perhaps. So I think sometimes revisiting what we can really commit to – you talked about commitment. So if my commitment is to try to be transparent, or try to create safe space with you, or try to see the goodness and hold an intention of seeing clearly here, or whatever it is – I think that that can call people maybe into those intentions or that commitment.
Dr. Tom Habib: Yeah, absolutely. There’s a lot of little ways… This description was dependent upon an external source of resonance. But one of the ways Christine and I do it is when the girls come home – one of my daughters is in college, one has almost got her doctorate in psychology…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Oh, nice.
Dr. Tom Habib: Yeah, I’m really looking forward to it. She might join my practice after her post-doc.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: That’s so great.
Dr. Tom Habib: Yeah, I’m looking forward to those times… But when we do family movie night, my wife gets everything ready, and the girls snuggle up on the couch, they get their tea, and we’re all ready to watch it… I can catch Christine’s eye and nod, and what I’m doing there is I’m using that energy, that “Look at what we’ve created here.”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: That’s so sweet.
Dr. Tom Habib: There’s so many of those, that we miss those small ones of living in the abundance. When we don’t acknowledge those and we don’t really set a strong intention to live there, it’s not looking back at those early romantic times. They haven’t put the work in, they haven’t really done all the work to be able to look at their kids and go “Oh my god, look at what we did.”
So yeah, it is constant when you do that. Some people are much better, obviously, at holding that than other people. They don’t panic, they have that depth of holding that feeling and not feeling that overexposure that much.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay, so you said the gratitude mindset, which we’re talking about a little bit now… You were talking about the important work of the inner awareness, and you were also talking about the level of transparency, and you just gave us a really beautiful exercise to access an external source that perhaps provokes this emotional space, and then to use that resonance to then engage in one another to build that muscle, if you will, if we haven’t been doing it otherwise, and then to do that several times, and then perhaps start to cultivate that without the movie.
Dr. Tom Habib: Yup, absolutely. Because now you’re not dependent on external resonance. You’re beginning to recognize all the subtle things. Sometimes in couple therapy I watch how people handle compliments and sensitivity, and if they contract and pull away, I’ll have the spouse reach over and hold their face on one side, with their thumb underneath their ear, and go “No, no, no. I meant that. You’re really good at doing that.” And then I’ll call them on, “Don’t you pull away.”
You probably have seen this, too – sometimes people are so hungry for that level of affirmation that they cry on the spot. It raises depression. And then I remind them, this is just the hunger; you’re never gonna fill this space unless you allow people to be there. So then I’ll empower their spouse, “I want you to go back there on them and open this up again for them.”
So you can see how I’m using these moments of consciousness – collective consciousness, not just the individual experiences that we have – in meditative moments, but to really be able to embody that in that moment, the open space, both for our spouse and for other people. Some of the people I work with – and maybe you and I can do a dialogue on this, on some of the people that are highly sensitive people… [unintelligible 00:46:25.19]
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes… Yes…
Dr. Tom Habib: I really find a lot of these people show up in my practice with anxiety disorders, and when I show them how to run this gift they have, how to calm everything down, they have quite an ability… Because they can open up this subtle space where they pull other people into it. I’ve got a few moms that do it, they open it up, and it’s just through an eye contact with their kids. They kind of show them where the deeper intimacy lies, and some o the children go “Mommy, I wanna do that again”, which must be incredibly gratifying. Nothing is said at that moment.
Rumi has another poem where he goes “I’ll meet you in the field, and we’ll lie in the grass, where words aren’t necessary.” And you can feel that space, can’t you? It’s just that subtle energy and intensity… But the hardest place to do it is in intimacy. Do you find that to be true, too?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, I feel it’s one of my greatest teachers, and when you’re talking about cultivating this first love stage feeling, and bringing the practice there, it almost reminds me of that quote of choosing love; we choose it, or love is a verb, or that commitment or those vows are something we choose. It’s not passive, it’s not something happening to us. But you know, I’ve done so much of my own work, and my upbringing brought certain fears to the table for me, and then I think relationship is what showed them to me – around fear of abandonment, I lost my father when I was really young… All this stuff.
So I feel like having been able to turn towards that, and do a lot of healing, and continually really saying yes to whatever does emerge, that does feel difficult, or it feels like a reaction. But I just believe in the process so much and what comes from that by the willingness to do it… So yes, I find it in myself, and then obviously, most people that reach out for support with relationship issues, couples that are really in deep disconnect patterns, and have a lot of pain that they’re experiencing together… So to help them have a path, it’s really rewarding, but also it’s not always easy, for sure.
Dr. Tom Habib: It isn’t, although I had mentioned earlier that pixie dust thing, that moms do with their children when they have these capacities… I think you recognize where I’m using that pixie dust, out of — oh, what’s that childhood story? I just lost–
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Oh, Peter Pan.
Dr. Tom Habib: Peter Pan. And [unintelligible 00:49:28.04] But how it works for me in the therapeutic environment is sometimes I’ll do an alter ego out of psychodrama, where I’ll give them the words to use, and I’ll bring them into a much deeper level of connection… And it’s really depended upon my structuring in that moment. But then when I debrief them with it, “Do you think you can do that? I may open it up for you.” Because it’s not enough; in sight isn’t enough. We have to open up that space where they get the feeling of it… Because the feeling acts like breadcrumbs and they know where to revolve to that way… And just the description isn’t enough. They have to feel it to get there. Do you find that true, too?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, I feel like when a couple can have that emotional shift and that experiential practice together, that’s something that they can access more than the insight. Because I think you’re right, when we’re talking about the nervous system and what gets activate in life if they don’t have a felt experience or an emotional pattern to be able to access, it’s really difficult. The prefrontal cortex is offline, typically, when we’re in that fight, flight or freeze, so…
Dr. Tom Habib: Yeah.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I think not only helping people, like you said, turn down the regulation, but also being able to access this pixie dust, like you’re talking about… It’s so important.
Well, I know we’re getting towards the end of our time, and I wanna make sure I give people an opportunity — you mentioned your website, and perhaps where might they find the visuals here, for people to look at?
Dr. Tom Habib: So on my website, DrTomHabib.com you can find all kinds of podcasts and the visuals that I went through today… But I’m also gonna be at the Integral European Conference on May 27th. I’m doing a 3-hour workshop on collectively reaching the deepest stages… And I’m so hoping it happens. It’s really fun; the Europeans — well, there’s people from all over the world at the conference, but the Europeans are really good at showing up emotionally, and to work with these people and really develop the deep, subtle stages, that’s how I inform myself how to do it with the intimate couple; I go back and forth on this. But that’s how people can reach me… If you wanna reach me via email, it’s DrTomHabib [at] gmail.com
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Wonderful. And are you taking new clients, or is your practice pretty full? It sounds like your daughter might be joining you very soon.
Dr. Tom Habib: Right, and my daughter may be picking up some of the slack… I’m open to taking new clients; usually couples I like to do, so I’d be open to that.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And do you do remote sessions, or is it only in state?
Dr. Tom Habib: I only do remote if I meet them a couple of times upfront, because I find it too hard for me to read them unless I know them. And then once I get the feel, I can do it remotely.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay, gotcha. Fabulous. Well, I hope people get in touch with your work, and if they’re interested in getting more support with you, they can contact you on your website, and I’ll make sure to have all of those links on today’s show notes.
Thank you, Tom, for your gift today in teaching us your couples’ line of development.
Dr. Tom Habib: Thank you for the time to dialogue with you.
I hope you have enjoyed today’s interview, again, with Dr. Tom Habib, as we’re looking at the developmental process of couplehood and what’s involved in that. Now, he did mention Dr. Susan Johnson and we talked briefly about that, and I just wanna say, in my experience of her work, not only is she accessing pivotal moments where there may be injury and pain that we haven’t been fully aware of, but she’s also inviting a deeper contact with the positive feelings, so that one partner could say to the other “You mean the world to me. You mean more to me than anyone else.” So there can be this real connection and this emotional resonance. Dr. Tom Habib is speaking to this, and I think there’s a way in which these two philosophies really do fit together nicely, and do complement one another.
Again, if you would like access to today’s show notes, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast and find today’s episode, 214, “How to advance the development of your relationship”, an interview with Dr. Tom Habib. There you’ll also find the charts that Dr. Tom Habib was referring to, as well as other resources on his website.
There you’ll also find the link to the free guide that I mentioned, “Relationship map to happy, lasting love”, looking at the development of intimacy, and that there are five stages; describing each stage, looking at the goal of each stage, and also what is important for us to develop to go to the next stage. And again, as I mentioned, I think this will be a nice complement to what Dr. Tom Habib is offering you today. And again, you can find that on my website, DrJessicaHiggins.com.
Until next time, I hope you take great care.
* * *
You’ve been listening to Empowered Relationship, your relationship guide. Remember to take a moment to write a review and subscribe today. You can also get your free relationship gift by visiting DrJessicaHiggins.com.
0 Comments