Return to Show Notes

Welcome to The Empowered Relationship Podcast, helping you turn relationship challenges into opportunities and setting you up for relationship success. Your host, Dr. Jessica Higgins, is a licensed psychologist and relationship coach who shares valuable tips, tools and resources for you to dramatically improve your relationship.

This podcast is 100% ad-free. To support this show, please subscribe and write a review today. Here is your host.

*   *   *

Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 222, “How to deal with triggers in relationship”, an interview with Dr. David Richo. It’s a pleasure to have him on the show; I referenced several episodes ago – I think this was maybe six month ago – the book “How to be an adult in relationship”, and I did a two-part on the five A’s, and I got a lot of really good feedback about those episodes, so I’ll make sure to put those on the show notes. You can access them there if you missed those two episodes.

Before we get started, I wanna take a moment and just center into the journey that we’re all on in cultivating happy, successful, long-lasting intimacy, that supports our authenticity and a full spectrum of living… And that we can continue to grow individually, and grow our relationship, and have a full experience. Sometimes that experience will bring challenges, threats, insecurities, difficulties, and so often it’s how we deal with those difficulties that determine the level of success in relationship, as well as our growth and learning.

The tips, tools, principles offered on the Empowered Relationship Podcast are in support of that journey. If you would like access to today’s show notes, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast, and you can find all the episodes listed there. Again, today’s episode is 222, “How to deal with triggers in relationship”, an interview with Dr. David Richo. There you’ll also find other resources – articles, free gifts… And one free guide that I’ve been referencing a lot on this show is the “Shifting criticism into connected communication.” It’s one of the main complaints and reasons for relationship breakup and divorce… And as we’re gonna be talking about today, it’s so often how we deal with triggers in relationship that really determine our experience… And sometimes when we resort to being critical, complaining, blaming, judging, that we have an experience going on underneath that we might not even be entirely aware of…

So this guide introduces you to some comparison of situation and how we might relate to our significant other, so you can kind of begin to see what might one express when they are more in touch with what’s going on, or their need. And also, as you access the free guide, you’ll also be getting an email series that gives you a lot more support, and an opportunity to go deeper with the curriculum. Again, you can find that on DrJessicaHiggins.com, you can find it on the homepage. I’ll also make sure there’s a link in today’s show notes. Let’s get started in today’s interview.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: David Richo Ph.D. is a Psychotherapist, Writer, and Workshop Leader. He teaches at a variety of places including Esalen and Spirit Rock Buddhist Center. He shares his time between Santa Barabara and San Francisco in California. Dave combines psychological and spiritual perspectives in his work.

Dave, thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. David Richo: Thank you for inviting me, Jessica.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, and for people who are consistent listeners – they might have heard the episode where I covered the five A’s, based on the book you wrote “How to be an adult in love”, and I just feel really privileged to be able to share this time with you… And I know our topic today is really around your newest book, Triggers. But before we get started in looking at that topic, for people who aren’t as familiar with you and your work, can you give people a little bit of a sense of how you got interested in relationships and helping people navigate that terrain?

Dr. David Richo: I think I became interested in relationships because I noticed that they pose the greatest challenge of my life… And it took me a while to understand what love was about. I kept questioning myself as to whether I really did love others. I was married for 15 years, and I have a son; I’m divorced now, but in all my experience I kept seeing an ongoing conflict between my own needs and the needs of others. And gradually, I came to see that relationships work best when we give equal attention to our own needs and to the needs of our partners and children. So that is the origin of the interest in this topic.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Having been in this field for so many years and assisting others in developing these skills, what are you finding in yourself and in others in this practice?

Dr. David Richo: I have been a psychotherapist for 50  years. This last year it was my 50th anniversary…

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love it!

Dr. David Richo: And I noticed that the biggest issue, the one that kept coming up, was whether to stay or go from a relationship, and especially how difficult it is to go when your needs are not being met and you’re no longer meeting the needs of the other. And this stuckness that happens to so many of us really puzzles me… So right now I’m working on a new book on the topic of why we stayed so long, and what doesn’t work, and how to (shall we say) release ourselves from our stuckness. It’s a very big project.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, I’m imagining… And I know we would all be interested in that topic. It’s a really emotional, and can be painful, but also can be just encompassing so much in that decision-making process, so offering some guidance around that I’m sure will be so helpful.

Do you find that Triggers relates to that question?

Dr. David Richo: Yes, and I talk about it somewhat in the book on triggers… I think the more we’re triggered into fear of being alone, we wind up believing that the only way to survive is to stay put, even when things are anywhere on the spectrum from just not working, to abuse. It’s important to learn ways to notice that this is happening, and to take some steps to release ourselves from what is ultimately hurting us.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: So it sounds like fear is a pretty big driver when we’re feeling triggered.

Dr. David Richo: It’s one of the main triggers, yeah. The three main triggers that I talk about in the book are fear — we’re triggered into fear, we’re triggered into anger, and we’re triggered into sadness.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Can you talk about those three a little bit?

Dr. David Richo: When we feel threatened, then we kind of go to the fear place… And that’s okay, because fear is an appropriate response to a threat. But it’s supposed to be the kind of fear that activates us toward some type of healthy response that gives us the sense of safety… But often when we’re triggered into fear, we just stay afraid, turning into worry, turning into anxiety… And that’s when it’s not really serving us. So I try to show how that happens and how we can move out of it.

Anger is prompted by the feeling that someone has been unfair toward us. That something has happened that we didn’t deserve, or that is unjust. That too is  a healthy response, as I show in the chapter on anger. Sometimes instead of showing healthy anger, which is (shall we say) a direct and non-violent feeling, in which we express our displeasure at an injustice; sometimes we turn it into abuse and we become aggressive toward others, blame them, put them down, retaliate… And when you bring that into a relationship, it becomes very toxic.

And then the sadness is our automatic response to any kind of a loss, or to the sense that something’s missing. And again, it’s a healthy response, but if we don’t express it, if we try to keep bottling it up, eventually it turns into depression.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Thank you for unpacking that with us a little bit… Do you find that anger is sometimes a secondary emotion, that protective response? Or do you find most often that anger is really connected to a violation or a boundary being crossed? …like you say, it’s something being unfair.

Dr. David Richo: I’m trying to show that anger has to become a practice. A practice of health and spirituality, so that it’s okay to express it. And when it isn’t okay to express it, for instance if we’re afraid of our own anger, we might turn it into fear or violence.

A good example of the reverse of this, in which case it’s a secondary emotion, as you’ve just brought up, would be road rage… Because when someone cuts you off, you actually feel afraid. That’s the feeling, fear. But instead of letting yourself feel the vulnerability that goes with fear, and this accompanying sense of powerlessness, you turn on the other driver – that’s the road rage; and then anger is secondary.

So sometimes it’s secondary and sometimes it’s primary, when you allow yourself to feel it and have ways of showing it that are keeping with healthy psychological and spiritual limits, and it’s become secondary when you’re covering up some other more authentic feeling

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And so for people perhaps listening that might not know the difference between what it feels like when it’s a secondary emotion, it sounds like what you’re encouraging is by entering into this practice and by trying to express in really constructive ways that it might shift into another emotion, which would be then more of — that would be more of the primary emotion…

Dr. David Richo: Yes.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay. And for people that are listening — I mean, you’re really clear about these different emotional states. Oftentimes, when I hear people use the word “trigger”, they’re also speaking to a physiological arousal. Their heart is racing, or they’re getting tense, or there’s something going on… How do you help people recognize the trigger, that it’s happening to them or they’re experiencing it?

Dr. David Richo: It’ll always have a physical component; that would be a way of knowing that it’s  a true trigger. The subtitle of the book is “How we can stop reacting and start healing.” And one of the things that I’m proposing in the book is that you can actually learn a lot about yourself from your triggers… Because a trigger is a trailhead into an important hike that you can take into your own past experience.

For instance, let’s say you’re triggered by fear whenever you notice that you have displeased a man or a woman. If you think back to your childhood and realize that every time you displeased your mother or your father they turned on you, belittled you, shamed you or even hit you, then that memory has lodged itself in your body, and now when you displease a man or a woman, they represent your mother and father… And you’re actually finding out that you never really processed and resolved the conflicted nature of your relationship with one or both of your parents. So I would show in the book how to get from an ongoing, personal, common trigger, to some origin, and it’s usually something either from childhood or a past relationship… Or another way of saying it is it’s kind of a restimulation of a trauma.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right.

Dr. David Richo: So if you’re in post-traumatic stress from how you were treated in a relationship or in childhood, and then you’re getting restimulated – that’s what a trigger is, it’s a restimulation of something that is still gnawing at you. And the you that I’m referring to is your body.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right. The nervous system perhaps has experience of that and knows that that terrain perhaps is unsafe, and so it sounds like you’re inviting people to is — I love that analogy of a trailhead, because it’s an access point, and if we choose to approach it as such, there’s a real discovery process and a learning that even in the interest of healing, and maybe even repatterning, perhaps… Is that part of what you–

Dr. David Richo: Yes, I show the neuroscience of it, and how you can lay down new pathways so that the triggers don’t destabilize you as much as they used to. We will never get rid of all or triggers, nor do we have to, but we can reduce their wallop. So that’s the kind of work that I’m suggesting, and showing how to do in the book.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And you mentioned trauma… And I’m wondering, in your perspective, that there perhaps — I’m curious if you think there’s a spectrum of levels of intensity or significance in the trauma experience, that it doesn’t necessarily have to be diagnosable for it to be living in our nervous system… What do you think?

Dr. David Richo: Do you mean you don’t have to find out from someone else that —

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, I think that sometimes people have this association with trauma or PTSD as having to be life-threatening in this really significant way, and I guess I’m hearing the way you’re describing this, and if it’s perhaps maybe not as an extreme, but it still has that trauma experience, that there could be degrees of trauma… And I’m wondering what you think.

Dr. David Richo: Yes – some, as I said, destabilize you and throw you for a loop, and you become obsessed with it…

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Do you find that this is difficult for people to recognize sometimes, because perhaps it’s been such a part of their lived experience, and they’ve been using coping strategies that perhaps it’s all that they’ve known, if it’s been so habitual?

Dr. David Richo: Absolutely, yeah. So you’re not really naming it anymore… And naming it is an important part of really dealing with it.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And what do you invite people into to start building the ability to name that, or even distinguish the difference between the trauma and what is maybe more of a healthy, natural state?

Dr. David Richo: You’d have to become more and more conscious of your body and how you’re reacting, and how you’re feeling things… And ask yourself “Is this something familiar? Is this something that has been triggering me for quite a while? What is it exactly that I’m triggered by?”

For instance, in the example I gave – “Oh, I’m triggered by displeasing women. I feel scared when I do that.” By naming it as “I get triggered when I displease women, but the triggering is based on how my mother reacted to me; it’s not really about this particular woman in my life right now, and I don’t have to put my mother’s face on her.” So that’s how you name something and call it what it is.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, I love that you’re encouraging people to bring awareness to their body as an access or the trailhead, because I think that that’s gonna give really clear cues where sometimes mentally we can create a lot of stories and narrative that can kind of take us on these roundabouts… And as you’re describing, if we can build awareness and consciousness around our experience and kind of follow that path, it can be very illuminating.

Dr. David Richo: Yes.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And just thinking about people that I speak with sometimes, and as people begin this work, sometimes they’re acknowledging of how much they’re living in this aroused state, or stimulated, activated state, that they could be in this type of arousal more often than not. Do you find that?

Dr. David Richo: Oh yes, and that’s very hard on your body… You know, high blood pressure and all kinds of very negative impacts, so you really wanna work with triggers to not have to be so overwhelmed by them.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And do you find that if people don’t turn towards this work, does it have a long-term effect when people don’t work with their triggers?

Dr. David Richo: Oh, you just wind up continuing to be at the mercy of your triggers.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And how about relationship? What does this look like in the context of relationship? Because you brought up an example about displeasing your significant other, and that dynamic can be frightening just before even anything happens. So I guess if you can speak to — I guess we’re always in relationship, right? We live in the world, so would you say we’re being triggered by our environment, mostly?

Dr. David Richo: We’re triggered by our environment, by other people, by events… Even by our own inner [unintelligible 00:23:23.10]

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And is there anything you can speak to as this relates to relationship more specifically?

Dr. David Richo: It’s totally normal that in a relationship the partners will trigger each other, because as I say in my other book, which is called “When the past is present” (the title says it all), that in your present relationship you’re still reacting to past relationships and to parental issues. So that’s why it’s natural that you would be triggered by one another.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And what I see so often is that perhaps both people are triggered and they’re reacting to each other, and it’s just escalating in this very destructive pattern, and neither one perhaps is aware that they’re triggered.

So I guess since we have you, would you be willing to share one of your tools or exercises of how to work with a trigger, so listeners perhaps can get a sense of the invitation here?

Dr. David Richo: Yes. If you’re triggered into fear, which is a very common one, you could first admit that you’re feeling afraid. Then see if this fear that you’re having is familiar from past experiences of fear. Let yourself feel the feeling, rather than try to run away from it, and then most important would be not to act on it. “The fear is not gonna stop me from doing what I need to do, and it’s not going to push me into what I don’t really wanna do.”

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And do you encourage that people put pen to paper and journal, or is this a contemplation of just being more in a sitting practice and really breathing, paying attention to the body, identifying the trigger and then perhaps — I mean, I know a lot of people (and myself from time to time) have to really sit with it for a period of time… I like to journal, because it helps me unpack things, and then I’m able to identify that deeper emotion… But it’s no always apparent to me right away. So I’m curious, for people that are listening that maybe don’t have a lot of experience, what does this look like in the nuts and  bolts? What do they do?

Dr. David Richo: What do you mean? Regarding–

Dr. Jessica Higgins: So if they recognize “Oh, okay, I’m listening to this conversation about triggers, and that perhaps my body — I can start to pay attention to when I feel more activated”, and if they recognize “Okay, I feel more activated. I wanna work with that. I wanna approach the trailhead”, and for people that maybe haven’t done a lot of this inner inquiry, what would they do? What would you recommend? That they find some quiet time, would it be journaling, would it be just sitting and —

Dr. David Richo: Yes, I recommend that combination of journaling, keep track, bringing mindfulness to the moment, which means looking at how you’re being triggered without judging yourself or feeling ashamed that you’re triggered, or blaming the other person for triggering you… Because other people don’t really trigger us in the sense of cause a reaction; they’re the catalyst. But the reaction that we’re having is coming from inside ourselves.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Great. So once they start identifying, and then perhaps like you’re saying, looking at how it seems familiar… Would people need to sit with that? I think for me, I’ve experienced having to stay with that question a little longer than I would expect. Sometimes the immediate felt sense or the memory might pop up, and other times I just get a big question mark. What does that look like for people?

Dr. David Richo: It can go either way… Sometimes it just seems so mysterious, and you cannot quite figure it out. I find that writing in a journal about it, and just keep writing – eventually, we start to discover something that might  have been not so accessible to the ordinary, conscious mind… But when you journal, you access another part of your mind that has secrets and knowledge that you might not usually be aware of. So that’s the advantage of the free-flow writing.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And do you find — for me, I sometimes find a resonance when I do connect with something that feels familiar, but resonates and it opens up… It’s almost like another door that opens up to something that (like you said) I perhaps maybe wasn’t conscious of, or fully aware of… But there’s this physiological resonance with it. I’m curious if you have anything to say about that, about when we perhaps do touch in on a nerve or a cord that is really relevant… How do we know that?

Dr. David Richo: You’ll feel it physically, like the [unintelligible 00:29:01.28] like “Oh, yes. This really fits. This really makes sense.” And of course, you always wanna go with that, because it’s an intuitive knowing. Of course, we can’t really know something until we’re ready to know it, so it’s wonderful when it does kick in, because that means you are ready… You’re ready to look at it, to explore it, and eventually resolve it, so that it doesn’t have to be a pathway into further triggers.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And Dave, do you have anything to offer in the way of — it sounds like one of the next steps would be looking at how to respond, versus just react… And I know so often the impulse is to like “I wanna move through this, and I’m going through the motions”, but how do we know when we’re really ready, and how do we do that work in a really informed, mindful way, of getting to that more third step?

Dr. David Richo: Well, mindful is the right word for it, because mindfulness is the difference between reaction and response. In a reaction, you get thrown off-course because you are in the grip of your emotions… Whereas in mindfulness, you’re letting yourself be fully present in the here and now, without the judgments and without the overlay of feelings and need to control something, or define it even. And when you keep practicing that, you notice that you’re responding, rather than reacting.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, and we’re talking about physiological differences, and I can tell when I’ve regulated my nervous system to some degree, and I’m perhaps having to have more understanding of where the trigger comes from, or at least a part of it… I guess I find that more is available to me, or more — we’re talking about responding versus reacting, but my field of awareness, if you will, is so much wider.

Dr. David Richo: That’s a good way to put it, yeah. You’re allowing yourself to be more conscious.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, and then it’s like I have more choices. When I’m in fear, I feel like I have no choice, and it’s just like “I wanna do one thing.” Okay, great, I love that. And then how about — is there anything you wanna say about anger? I feel like some people are really comfortable with anger, stereotypically maybe men, and other people are not as comfortable with anger… Even some men, that “I don’t wanna be harmful or hurtful to others”, and therefore struggle with feeling anger. Is there anything different that you would add to this process as it relates to the trigger of anger?

Dr. David Richo: Well, in my chapter on anger I have a chart which shows you the difference between anger and abuse… And then at the other end of the spectrum would be passivity, in which you don’t express the anger directly, but you do it (shall we say) passively, trying to get at somebody without really showing your anger directly. And we’re always looking for that middle path, which is the expression of a feeling in a non-hurtful way.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right. And for me, I’ll say that in my early twenties, maybe even to mid-twenties, that was really important work for me, to develop a voice and not to be harsh or hurtful or mean verbally, but also not to be absorbing and passive and really develop a voice… But I think it had to come from a real inner process of recognizing “Okay, there’s a fire in me that’s responding… What’s around that?” and recognizing the ties to my upbringing, and then really how to take care of myself, setting boundaries, being assertive in a really loving way… But it’s been one of my most powerful tools to be able to have a voice… Even for others, when I feel like there’s perhaps injustice, doing it in a mindful way, but being able to advocate… I think anger can be tricky in relationship, and how to (like you’re saying) be constructive around it.

Dr. David Richo: Yeah, and as long as  you’re simply declaring your feeling, without blaming the other, you keep the relationship healthy and you show that anger can be shown between two people who love each other.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Do you have an example around that, that you might be able to share?

Dr. David Richo: Simply that you would declare/say to the other person, “You know, I’m feeling a lot of anger right now about this that’s happened. I’m not blaming you, I don’t wanna retaliate… I just wanna let you know what I’m feeling. Let’s open up a dialogue to work on this together.”

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And it sounds like in your book that you’re posing a lot of really good insights and exercises for people to resource, so perhaps some of these questions can help be a guide, because if anger in its primary form is so often related to what feels unfair, or a boundary being crossed, and that can be part of the inquiry of like “Is there something that feels unjust here?” If you can do that in a regulated way with a significant other, then great… But do you find that sometimes one who’s feeling anger might need to take pause, with the intention of coming back, but to perhaps do that process that you’re encouraging, to then have a little more understanding, to them come back to relationship?

Dr. David Richo: Yes, that’s a very good way to put it.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay. Well, I would love if you’d be willing to share how people can learn more about what you’re offering in the way of workshops, books, how to get in touch with your teachings.

Dr. David Richo: Okay. My website is DaveRicho.com. When you go there, I have a section on my books. This book is called Triggers. It’s published by Shambhala, 2019… And you can get it at any bookstore or Amazon. I also have my other books there, such as “When the past is present” or “How to be an adult in love.”

And then I have given workshops that have been recorded, so there’s also a button for downloading some mp3’s of my classes… And I do teach classes. There’s a tab there, Contact Me, to find out about my schedule. I teach once a year at Esalen and at Spirit Rock Buddhist Retreat Center here in California… And at many other places. So yeah, I’m always happy to share. But the website is the best place to go, and I also have some free YouTubes, and so forth. So it’s DaveRicho.com.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Excellent. Well, thank you for sharing your wisdom insights with us today.

Dr. David Richo: Thank you, Jessica. It was very enjoyable.

I hope you have enjoyed today’s interview. Again, if you would like access to today’s show notes, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast and you can find episode  222, “How to deal with triggers in relationship”, an interview with Dr. David Richo.

On the show notes you’ll find the links mentioned in today’s episode, as well as the link for the other episodes that I referenced – Dr. David Richo’s work, the five A’s.

Until next time, I hope you take great care.

*   *   *

            You’ve been listening to Empowered Relationship, your relationship guide. Remember to take a moment to write a review and subscribe today. You can also get your free relationship gift by visiting DrJessicaHiggins.com.

Return to Show Notes