Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 226, “How to understand and deal with a narcissist” an interview with Wendy Behary.
Before we get started, I wanna take a moment and just center with you, finding a moment of connection. Perhaps if you are taking pause for yourself, reflecting and turning inward with something that matters to you right now; perhaps a question, or a wondering, or a challenge. And as you just notice that, I’m setting the intention for the Empowered Relationship podcast, and that is that these conversations are intended to support you, to feel more equipped, supported, better prepared as you navigate long-term intimacy with your significant other.
As we talk about on this show, there will be challenges, whether or not it’s a life circumstance, or perhaps a relational challenge, or even individual difficulties or challenges, and that we don’t need to be afraid of that. Yes, it can be uncomfortable, yes, it can be painful, but when we turn away and avoid, that creates more suffering. But when we can turn towards that difficulty or that pain, there’s an opportunity for growth, for developing, for learning. Oftentimes the difficulty is the curriculum for our developing.
I was meeting with a client this last week, and he said something really beautiful. Now, he’s a man of faith, and he was talking about what it felt like after divorcing his wife, and now he’s in a new relationship, fast-forward several years, but he was talking about the internal deep-dive that he did, and what that painful situation brought for him… And he was talking about a prayer, and he was saying “Please, God, don’t take away the pain until you have me where you want me to be.” And he was saying “The pain helps me feel close to you, the pain helps me feel that I’m learning”, and he was showing me this text with all these different tabs, and he was like “This was tremendous growth for me.”
So the conversations on the Empowered Relationship Podcast are really designed to support you, knowing that we are all on this journey; that’s why I like having other experts in the field, to give voice to different aspects of relationship. I also bring a lot of tips, tools and research based on my education, my training, my work with clients… And my hope is that as you listen, you can take away with you what resonates. Not all of it is gonna resonate, but if there’s nuggets or something for you to work with or contemplate. And if you’re interested in getting more support, I encourage you to visit DrJessicaHiggins.com There you’ll find a tab Courses, so if you’re interested in self-studying and going a little deeper, there’s opportunities to do that there. Also, there is a resource page that gives book recommendations, as well as articles… And also on the website I have various free gifts for you as well. You’ll also find a link titled Podcast, and you can find there all the shows, as well as the show notes, so I encourage you to check that out. You’ll also find a tab Work With Me, where you can find more about doing coaching.
Again, today’s episode is 226, “How to understand and deal with a narcissist.” I am super-excited to share Wendy with you, Wendy Behary, as she is very advanced in her understanding in this particular area. As I’d mentioned in the past, many people reach out to get support in shifting critical tendencies when they build the awareness of “I think I’m using criticism”, whether or not they’re getting feedback from their significant other that they’re critical, or perhaps they’re reading stuff online, and I do have curriculum and resources around that… And it’s titled “Shifting criticism into connected communication.” I have a free guide that people have really given me feedback that “Wow, this is just a game-changer, and it’s so eye-opening to really see it in black and white contrast what critical tendencies look like, compared to more straight, clear signaling to your partner.” So I will put the link on today’s show notes. I also have other curriculum and an actual course to go deeper with learning the resource, learning strategies, learning “How come I’m critical, and why is that so hard to change?” So many people wanna white-knuckle it.
What’s interesting is we’re gonna be here with Wendy Behary as we look at narcissism. Narcissists tend to be really critical, controlling, and sometimes it can get more severe and abusive, so we’re gonna talk about those behaviors… But it just rang a bell for me around criticism. At the end of the show, I’m gonna help give a little bit of support around how criticism can feel different in just dynamics without narcissism, and what it can feel like when narcissism is at play, so stay tuned for that.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: With 25 years of post-graduate training and advanced level certifications, Wendy Behary is the founder and director of The Cognitive Therapy Center of New Jersey and The Schema Therapy Institutes of NJ-NYC and DC.
She has been treating clients, training professionals, and supervising psychotherapists for more than 20 years. Wendy has a specialty in treating narcissists and the people who live with and deal with them. As an author and an expert on the subject of narcissism, she is a contributing chapter author of several chapters on Schema Therapy for narcissism. She lectures both nationally and internationally to professional and general audience on the subject of Schema Therapy, and the subject of narcissism, relationships, and dealing with difficult people.
Wendy, thank you so much for joining us today.
Wendy Behary: Thanks for having me, Jessica. I’m happy to be with you.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, and I know you are a speaker, teacher and educator on so many topics, but today we’re gonna really be diving into how to understand and deal with a narcissist. I guess I would love, if you’re open to it, so people who perhaps don’t already know you can connect with you – what got you interested in looking at… I know you wrote a book, “Disarming the narcissist”, and just this topic in general?
Wendy Behary: Yeah, good question, and I appreciate the question, because a lot of people look at my expertise in this area with some confusion and some wonder, like “Is she masochistic? What’s wrong with her? Why would she choose to be an expert in narcissism and work with narcissistic men?”, which is what I primarily have treated for many years, along with their suffering partners.
You know, it really wasn’t something I chose, it was something I kind of stumbled into, and I think our discussion today may help to emphasize the importance of this realization for all of us who are dealing with someone who’s narcissistic. I was a young therapist, I probably encountered my first narcissist early on, and was really baffled by my own reaction, my own response to this person in the treatment room. And even as a professional who understood something about narcissism and narcissistic personality, I found myself so triggered, and really ineffective. So in essence, I was making a lot of mistakes in the beginning; I was curious, I was challenged, and I was in the midst of working alongside Dr. Jeffrey Young and the team developing an approach for dealing with challenging personality types, and we began to take this on… But mostly, I was curious about myself, and this reaction to it, and I began a deeper dive into understanding how to sturdy myself and work with these types of clients more effectively. That was quite rewarding, and it has been ever since.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that you’re able to reference just your own experience; that can be such a helpful tool, not only (it sounds like) in motivating you to have a deeper understanding of what’s all involved, and how to really work effectively, and then that you can really empathize with perhaps positions that people are in when dealing with a narcissist.
Wendy Behary: Yeah, because I think the shared experience of so many of us is that we can find ourselves being incredibly capable, competent, sturdy, even pretty well spoken and assertive under many conditions in our lives… And then you’re faced with a narcissist and suddenly you feel yourself shrinking. And as I often say – and I write about this in my book – I was giving in to demands, I was ignoring inappropriate and critical behaviors… I was basically surrendering to this and just submitting to their obnoxious ways of being… Or just even buying into the kind of charm that they can elicit.
So understanding them better, looking at myself in this “triggered way” as so many of us will find ourselves, I began to appreciate the value of really beginning to make sense out of this type of personality… Because the more you understand it, the less personal it becomes, and it’s less about your own self and you’re less likely to be dropping back in time, into that place when you were perhaps very young, repeating behaviors you might have done under similar types of conditions.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, and I even imagine not understanding — maybe some people go to real pathologizing in the conflict, or there’s several reactions… But speaking of understanding, I’m wondering if you would be willing to just give us some frame for how you’re approaching narcissism… Because as you talk about, there’s so much of us being in this era, where it’s social media, and selfies… But there’s a difference between perhaps maybe people that exude traits, versus an actual disorder. Can you help us frame that?
Wendy Behary: Yeah, it’s out there for sure… The term has never been more lively than it has been in recent times. Narcissism happens along a spectrum; so anything from the more benign, maybe annoying features of narcissism, or as you said, traits of narcissism, where someone could carry those traits and they show up occasionally, or maybe they just carry a few of the traits. Perhaps they’re a little too show-off-ish, a little too concerned with their appearance… You’ll get some of that, which doesn’t necessarily have an incredibly dangerous, deleterious impact on others. You move on up the spectrum into the more severe types of narcissism, and you’ll find as you get closer to the top of the spectrum those who are much more controlling, and even abusive, that under some conditions can be highly aggressive, and very demeaning and critical.
So it happens along a spectrum, from (as you pointed out), this more benign type, to what could be a full-blown personality disorder. And that’s how we look at it; the approach that I use is called Schema Therapy, and Schema Therapy is designed to work with very complex personality types, personality disorders, and even those that are happening along a spectrum. We’re looking at very early life experience nature/nurture elements, and understanding the types of life themes that have been embedded in one’s way of being, and one’s make-up, and how they’ve coped. So there’s reasons why narcissists are the way they are. There are stories to explain how they’ve become the way they are, and I think it behooves all of us to learn a little bit about that if you’re struggling with one… Because again, it helps you to liberate yourself the more you understand it.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Is there more you can say about that? Because I do think that once we can have a better perspective of how this develops, that there’s perhaps more — we won’t maybe take it so personally, or perhaps we won’t be so befuddled by it, and there’s maybe more compassion, or maybe a little more priority even in how we relate because we have this understanding. And again, I wanna clarify that someone in your role is trained and highly skilled in facilitating therapeutic work in this arena, and I know that some people, when they’re in relationship, and perhaps listening to a show like this one, they try to equip themselves with tools, and I think that’s helpful; you don’t wanna do therapeutic — like, filling that responsibility. But also we are in a helping role when we are in a love relationship.
Wendy Behary: Yes, yes. And no one should feel burdened to become the therapist of the narcissist in their life. It’s not your responsibility as a partner, as a child of a narcissist, or even a friend. But you’re right – as partners, there is a kind of reciprocal care-taking responsibility; not so much when you’re living with a narcissist, because it tends to be more one-sided, unfortunately. I always say the first tool – the first tool, the best gift you can start with is get really clear about what narcissism is all about; what has turned your partner into the person that they have evolved to become, and the ways that they are when they’re in those — we call them modes. They may not always be in a narcissistic mode…
But again, to greater and lesser degrees, depending upon where they are on the spectrum, you’re gonna see narcissistic modes, meaning you’re gonna see times when they’re controlling, when they are — I mean, they’re usually quite self-absorbed. That’s what really characterizes narcissism, where they’re acting very entitled, where there’s this “Rules don’t apply to me” kind of behavior, where they can be excessive and can’t see the limits, impulsive, and interruptive, and dismissive… Basically, they don’t see you. As many partners will say to me, “I just feel erased when I’m in the presence of the narcissist in my life. I feel as if he’s looking right through me.” Now, this can apply to narcissistic women, too; I just tend to work mostly with narcissistic men… But it goes both ways.
So the first thing we do is we try to understand the narrative of narcissism. What does it mean? How do they get this way? Because for example, when you understand that — and it’s not about feeling sorry for them, let me put that out there first. Learning about narcissism and really understanding it in your bones really well is not about letting them off the hook. It’s not about feeling sorry for them and having all this sympathy, it’s about understanding. Deep understanding. The kind that happens when we’re in a state of empathy, which is a really misused term out there. But when you’re in a state of empathy, you are understanding. It doesn’t mean you’re feeling sorry for someone. That’s sympathy. So the deeper we understand, the more free we become.
The more I can help someone to see that your partner has this mask that they wear called “I’m in charge, I have to be right. And I’m not saying I’m sorry to you. I’m never gonna say I’m sorry.” They wear that mask because underneath lies a little person who probably once upon a time – and we can verify this just through understanding stories and history and early childhood experience which many partners have access to – your partner was really taught that performance is the only thing that matters, that being the best of the best, being right, being at the top of your game is the most important position you can have as a human in order to have value and worth. And anytime that gets threatened, they’re going to attack. That’s what they learned. It was either mimicked, modeled, demanded by someone in their life, but it was there in the learning, more so than the kinds of things that a child needs, which is not — you know, we all need to learn how to perform in the world and be competent, but we also need to learn how to connect in terms of intimacy, and sharing, and give and take. That’s the missing piece in the early needs and experience of narcissists very often. Not always, but very often.
And when that happens, there’s such a thrust towards performance, righteousness, entitlement… “If I do everything right, and I’m the best, I can do whatever I want, without consequence, without remorse. And saying I’m sorry is like saying “I’m dirt. I’m no good.” They really have very black and white ways of living in the world. Anything that represents “I’m no good, I’m wrong, I’ve made a mistake” – you and I could say to a friend “I’m so sorry. I’ve let you down. That must have felt terrible. I made that promise to you and clearly I wasn’t able to live up to the promise. I’m very sorry. I’m sure that was hurtful.” There’s an empathic, remorseful “I’m sorry.” I can say that, because at the core I don’t feel like I’m broken and defective.
At the core of a narcissist is a very insecure, broken, flawed feeling, a little person… And all that bluster that we see on the top is really to cover up that feeling of insecurity underneath. They’re so unskilled when it comes to their interpersonal relationships, even though they may be highly successful when it comes to their performance… So the more we understand that, we still see it as unacceptable behavior, but we don’t go into that unnecessary space of “Maybe it’s me. Maybe I’m not pretty enough. Maybe I’m not smart enough. Maybe I am provoking all of this. Maybe I am asking for too much.” We don’t go there, because we have an appreciation for what’s really stirring this up… And we still hold the line, which is to say “It’s not acceptable, even though I understand it.”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, I love having people on here that teach other therapists or coaches or people that are in this therapeutic work, because it’s kind of the teachers of teachers, and your ability to articulate this so clearly is just — I can feel the power in it, and thank you. So you’re speaking to something really important that I just wanna name… So what do you see that the common response is without this context of perhaps how this person with narcissistic traits or narcissism develops? It sounds like without that knowledge, without that frame, there’s an initial way that we might react or receive their behavior. What do you see? You’re naming some of it, but is that typical?
Wendy Behary: In terms of their origins and the way that they grow up?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, the person that’s in relationship with a narcissist, if they don’t have that deeper understanding that how come their behavior is the way that it is, what do people typically experience in relationship without that context?
Wendy Behary: Yeah, there’s the beautiful question that you’re asking, which is if you don’t have that knowledge, then you are likely to fall into the trap of either expanding all your energy on being incredibly angry, as if you have something to defend… “I get angry because I’m feeling undesirable.” So that might be your own schema. We talk about schemas of partners of narcissists that get activated, because this is a kind of dual process… So if I have a schema that says “I’m not good enough”, or we’ll call it defectiveness; “I’m broken in some way”, then when the narcissist is criticizing me and making fun of me, ignoring me, I can rise up and become incredibly angry, expand all my energy on being angry. I can end up doing things to try to fix myself in ways that are really unfair, unjust, overcompensating for something that I really shouldn’t have to defend.
I can end up being the one who’s always apologizing and picking up the slack, and sacrificing, forfeiting my own needs and rights, and then feeling resentful, and then feeling guilty, and bouncing back and forth between resentment and guilt, as many people do who are partners to narcissists. If I have abandonment issues in my early life experience, I will be walking the very fine line, terrified that at any minute, even though this person is kind of impossible to live with, I don’t wanna be abandoned, so I’ll do anything to not be abandoned, which again, can lead me to subjugating my opinions, my desires, my thoughts, my ideas, my own needs.
So we’ll end up in a fight response, a flight response, or a submission response. That’s the way our survival system works, and this is — they essentially trigger our emotional survival system, so we’ll end up in these states that we call self-defeating, because it doesn’t really change anything… And although we can’t expect partners to change the narcissist, but you can have an effect on what the narcissist may be willing to do to look at themselves. You can have an effect on making new choices for yourself, new ways to live your life, more healthily and peacefully.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: What do you see as a change agent? Because you’re talking about this process that someone with their own schema or their own reaction to this impossible behavior… And at what point do you see people reaching out for help? Because I know a lot of people hop on the web, or they start trying to diagnose their partner… At what point do you see people reaching out for help?
Wendy Behary: It’s an interesting question, because — for lots of different reasons. Sometimes it’s because it’s beginning to show up in the actions and the reactions of their children, and that become very scary, so they’ll start reaching for help. Sometimes it’s just they’ve been so steamrolled for so long that they’re weary, and they’ve read something that has just kind of — you know, it rang a bell, so they think “Okay, maybe I’m not alone. Maybe it’s not me. Maybe this isn’t so strange”, and they’ll reach out for help, because thankfully, there’s lots of stuff to read.
And sometimes it’s just that feeling that “I’ve spent my entire life feeling unworthy and unloved, and I’m tired.” And they’ll reach out to say “Am I dealing with a narcissist? Is that what’s going on here? Because it kind of feels like that.” So they’ll reach out just to kind of assess the situation. Sadly, many people will reach out to check on themselves, “Is it me? Is it something I’m doing, or something I could be doing differently?” and the answer is, well, there are things you can be doing differently, but they’re really in terms of taking a stand for yourself and seeing how much leverage you have that might be able to begin a process for change.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes… And before I move on – you talk a bit about why we might be attracted to someone who’s a narcissist, and some of the underlying dynamics… Is there anything else you’d like to say around that?
Wendy Behary: You know, no one is immune. Nobody’s immune. We can all get captured by the spell of a narcissist. They can be so incredibly charming. They are so good in the courtship phase… You may see little glimmers of the red flag, but they’re usually so good in the early days of being the superheroes – they’ll come to the rescue, they’ll figure things out, they’ll problem-solve, they’re smart, they’re entertaining… They can do all of that. Even as a therapist, I will often share with colleagues and with the public – even I as a therapist that I’ve been working with them for years will occasionally catch myself being a little too caught up… I call it “getting captured by the spell”, where they can be so entertaining; they’re telling a story that’s interesting, and fascinating, and there you are, just drifting away into the land of avoidance and being impressed, which is exactly what they’re trying to do, which is to win your approval, to impress you, to get what they want. And what they want in the treatment room is “Please tick the box that I showed up, and now let me off the hook, let me outta here.”
And in relationships they want to win you over, they wanna win your approval, and then when they’re kind of done with that, they get what they want, it’s just a matter of time before you’ll see that begin to wane. But anyone — so many people who’ve contacted me will say “I bet smart women don’t get caught up in these relationships. I bet professional women…” That’s absolutely not true. Everyone can find themselves being attracted, because the narcissist can be very charming and very interesting in the early days.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And I wonder, as you’re talking, Wendy, that no one’s immune, and then when we start to see that next phase where perhaps the narcissist has earned the approval, or earned the person being enamored or impressed by them, and then it’s still — whether or not it’s the controlling, or whatever the behavior, it starts to become more visible… I wonder if at that stage the person in relationship with the narcissist – their schemas will inform how hard they work, or how they engage with trying to fix that dynamic? I wonder. It’s a question.
Wendy Behary: Yeah, it’s again a good question, Jessica… I think part of it is that there are some people who are going to be attracted to narcissists, because they already carry a pretty low sense of self. They’ve come through life always finding themselves at that crossroads where they’re questioning their worth. They were kind of taught that. If you grew up in an abusive home, or a home where you were criticized or neglected, you might end up just expecting the world to let you down, expecting people to let you down, expecting people to see you as unlovable or unworthy… So you meet this powerful, over-the-top charming, interesting person, and it can feel like magic. The question becomes what happens in later days. And in later days, what happens is the narcissist, once they’re done with that initial performance — because they’re very good at performance; it doesn’t mean nothing about what they share with you in the early phase of relationship is not genuine. They can carry a genuine feeling of love in their hearts; they’re just really poor when it comes to accessing that and expressing that in an enduring way.
So as time goes on, you’re getting to that place where relationships become more intimate in an enduring way. There’s a shared reality between two people. There’s shared emotional experiences, there’s sacrifice, there’s compromise… And a narcissist is not good at these things. So as the relationship progresses, they’re going to become more agitated and irritated with being in a relationship in it’s healthy form. And for the person who’s in relationship with a narcissist, who carries fears of abandonment or feelings of defectiveness, or fears of being just emotionally alone and deprived, fears of being abused perhaps even – they find themselves doing everything they can, doing the mental and physical calisthenics to try to keep the narcissist happy, and pleased. And then we go back to that idea of a lot of self-sacrifice. Or, at the other end of the spectrum, partners who end up in just states of exhausting anger, which – you can’t win a narcissist when it comes to that. That’s their home turf – with competition and fighting.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right. They’re like “I’ve worked really hard to develop these skills. You’re not gonna win with me.”
Wendy Behary: Yeah.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay. And when people do reach out for help and they do have support and starting to identify what’s at play, and perhaps some of the different schemas and mechanisms, do you feel like — I guess it’s all inner work; I guess the question was like “Do you feel like more of it is about how to relate to that person that has narcissistic traits?”, or someone’s strategies to earn, and how come they’re trying to earn or fix… I guess it’s more of the same.
Wendy Behary: Well, when someone comes to me, we do a few things. First, I try to get a sense of where they are. Are they about to exit and they want some help exiting the relationship, but they’re feeling frightened, remorseful, ambivalent? So I try to assess where they’re at in the frame. We assess for safety, always. How aggressive is the narcissist as their abuse is going on? They’re not all abusive. They can be incredibly off-putting and obnoxious, but some are abusive and some not so much.
So I assess for safety… And we look at what’s the leverage, meaning “Is there anything about losing you that would be meaningful to the narcissist in your life?” So for those that are saying “Call me crazy, but I’d like to make this work, Wendy. I’d like to make this relationship work.” And I say “That’s not crazy. You have a family, you love this person, you’ve seen the vulnerable side of them occasionally, you understand the suffering underneath, and you wanna learn how to set limits and hold them accountable. You wanna see what’s possible.” So I ask “Do you have leverage? Would it matter to the narcissist in your life if you said “I’m done”? Would it matter?” And if they say “Yes, it would matter”, then maybe there’s leverage to get the narcissist into therapy. And that’s not with a big, bold, empty threat. It’s really with a thoughtful conversation. So I guide them. We language it. We find ways of being able to present that as honestly and accurately as possible, and there’s a beautiful strategy in schema therapy that I’ve expanded and developed over time, called Empathic Confrontation. I’ve expanded it for narcissists, I should say.
So it’s helping partners figure out how to use terms that even I use in the treatment room, but in a not therapeutic way, just in an everyday way, that they can say “Look, I know that you’re stressed about work. I know you’ve got a lot going on right now, and I know that when you come home, you wanna unwind and de-stress. But taking it out on me in that way, talking to me in that tone, which is – I have to tell you – incredibly hard to listen to, and very hurtful, is not okay.” So it’s empathy, “I get it”, or even empathy “I know in your world your dad told you if you do everything right, you can do whatever you want. As long as you get it right, then there’s no consequences, so you can have what you want, when you want it. But you know, being unfaithful to me, stepping out, even your pornography viewing is really hurtful, and feels like a betrayal, and it’s not acceptable to me.”
So it’s “I get it…” As I would say in therapy, “Look, it’s not your fault that you’ve evolved these different ways of being. You’ve constructed these modes for coping with the world. It’s not your fault, it’s part of the way you’ve learned, it’s part of the way you were put together, but it’s not okay. It doesn’t work.”
So it’s an empathy that comes with a confrontation for holding accountable, for setting limits, for drawing a line in the sand. And once you’re sturdy enough, which means all that other work has to happen first, where you understand yourself, and we do a whole lot of work to resolve those internal early experiences to try to make our most vulnerable self feel safe enough within our adult body, so that we can begin to use this language in an effective, affirmative way as an advocate for ourselves. It’s not to punish, it’s really to see what’s possible. Is there the possibility of gaining some accountability?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I think that’s what I was asking, if there’s some inner work that the partner to the narcissist – is there inner work that that partner does to get sturdy, to then engage in more proactive or healthy boundary-setting ways? And it sounds like you’re saying yes.
Wendy Behary: Yeah, absolutely. Again, we dive deep so we can see how much of what you’re experiencing with the narcissist in your life might be — I mean, look, for anyone dealing with them, it’s so frustrating and it’s so hard, and it can create such anguish and distress… But we look at intensity, the degree to which it becomes so intense that you’re engaging in self-defeating activity might mean that there’s something familiar, something reminiscent about this experience… And we wanna look deep, to see if there’s a part of you underneath, a little you who is suffering, who’s struggling, who’s been kind of reawakened in the face of this relationship… And this might be an opportunity to use the imagination, which is an incredible resource, to go a little deeper and reconnect with that little person in you who’s be reawakened and begin to heal her/him, begin to connect with that part; imagine getting those needs met, imagine reorganizing the truth in the way that it’s been logged into your brain and into your nervous system.
So there’s a lot of work that goes into helping someone feel fine, and feel good enough, and feel loved, and feel secure, and feel capable of standing on their own, and feel less frightened, and perhaps even being alone. So there’s a lot of work that goes into that. Not as much as what has to go into the work with the narcissist, but a lot of work that goes into them. It’s all about being the strongest, healthiest adult we can be, good advocate for ourselves that we can be.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And I’m just feeling how important your role in helping them confront some of this, because so much of what we are wired for is that co-regulation, or being in relationship so that we can then internalize that, and if they didn’t have that when they were young and they’re in the environment with the narcissist… So it’s like, they might to get to meet with you however frequent – once a week, or more, or less, I don’t know – but they’re still being exposed to those interactions, so really to confront the inner workings and the motivation or the things that maybe they haven’t really turned towards. It just seems like such an important endeavor, and also just how important your role is in assisting that.
Wendy Behary: And it’s very dimensional. There’s so many dimensions to this, because it’s “How do they help their children? How do they protect them against the mimicry of this? How do they protect their children against the impact of narcissism on them?” It might be someone who’s just dealing with the aftermath of leaving a narcissist, and all the turmoil and betrayal and hurt that they’re still carrying with them, and what to do with them, the fear of moving into new relationships… There’s so many different dimensions of how narcissism affects our lives, whether you’re in the relationship or you’re leaving it or you’ve left it already.
I have an online community that I actually run for it called “Loving, Leaving, Living With the Narcissist in Your Life”, and it’s on my website, DisarmingTheNarcissist.com. It’s an online community that is basically designed to offer a support group for people to gather and talk. I facilitate that, and then I facilitate a seminar once a month for everyone on various topics related to narcissism.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: That’s amazing. I’m so glad you have those resources for people, because this is, like you said, complex… And to have a skilled facilitator to navigate this seems just so important. Before we wrap up, if you can talk a little bit about what you see with the narcissist perhaps responding to some of this therapeutic empathy, or the empathetic boundary… I forgot what the name of it was…?
Wendy Behary: Empathic confrontation.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Empathic confrontation. Do you see people generally responding to that? I know there’s the big question that people have is “Can a narcissist change?” What do you see in that regard?
Wendy Behary: It’s not easy. In 30+ years of working with narcissistic men mostly – yes, it is possible for people to change. And even narcissists can change. Now, I don’t really believe anyone changes completely, but it is possible to get meaningful change. But narcissists — not everyone that walks in the treatment room is going to be that person. Many will abort therapy very early on. Some will get a little bit, some will really undermine, or they’ll overthrow the therapist… It’s hard to find therapists who are willing to work with them, so let’s start with that… Because therapists get triggered too, so it’s difficult. It’s hard to find enough leverage to get them into therapy. But to answer your question about empathic confrontation, what I say to people who are endeavoring to use this strategy is be persistent and stick with it. It’s probably not gonna work the first time. You’re gonna get some kind of a cynical response. Occasionally, people will get the magical first-time “Wow, it really turned things around for us”, but that’s not likely to happen with more severe brands of narcissism…
So you need to be persistent, and not only to try and bring about this change consequence; if you get that, great. If you get them to agree to go to therapy, great. Because it’s really necessary. But to hear your own voice, to hear yourself being a stand for yourself is a very powerful shift in that whole dynamic, just to feel yourself standing up for you. That’s a new movement, which will guide you towards making a decision about this relationship one way or the other, but making it from a healthy position, not from a frightened reaction.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that. I couldn’t agree with you more, because the quality of that delivery – again, the intention and the motivation is to show up in the interest of health for your well-being… And yes, of course you want your significant other to respond, but it’s not like “I’m making this move with the agenda that you’re gonna respond, and the success is hinged on your response”, right?
Wendy Behary: Right, right. In fact, if we think about it — you know, many of them will hear things like… Let’s say I’ve coached someone to be able to tell the truth, and to say something like “I’m sad for us, Joe, because I really see this inevitably — we’re gonna come apart. It’s not working for me. And I know you’re gonna roll your eyes and feel like I’m picking on you again, and it’s not my intention.” This is the empathy; we’re sort of anticipating what’s gonna happen. “So I’m not picking on you. I’m trying to be sensitive to the fact that you have a lot going on in your job right now… But it’s very sad, because I see us inevitably — you know, we’re gonna grow apart. I just see it.” This is what we call “testing the leverage.” And the narcissist may look at you and say “Oh, what – you’re threatning me now?” And so even this very eloquent presentation can land with that response… And again, if you quit there, it’s too soon. So you wanna continue to persist, to say “No, did it feel like a threat? That must have felt awful. No, it wasn’t really intended as a threat. It’s intended as a way of expressing my own sadness, because I like to think of us as growing old together in a healthy and loving way, but I don’t see that happening. It feels kind of dark.” And they may still pounce off and slam the door, but yay for you. Tell the truth, do it in a way that doesn’t mean you have to rise up and be ferocious and angry, because that just makes you tired, and it doesn’t go anywhere with narcissists… And you’ve said something, you’ve planted the seed, you’ve put the seed in the fertilizer. It will fertilize. They will stir with it if it matters to them. And it usually does.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, agreed. Because I think the quality, again – it’s gonna feel different as they’re receiving it. I know your book is gonna offer so much more if people are interested in getting it, or even accessing your online community, or your coaching… But is this some of what’s involved in disarming the narcissist?
Wendy Behary: Yes. That, and a lot more on setting limits in different scenarios, that people can relate to, I think.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: So Wendy, how can people get in touch with what you’re offering?
Wendy Behary: Well, the easiest way is just to go to my website, which is — just type my name in, Wendy Behary. You’ll come to DisarmingTheNarcissist.com You can also email me; I’m open to emails, and I welcome people’s interests, questions. [email protected]. My website has a lot of resources – podcasts, resources, reading materials, and the online community, as I mentioned, is a way to get involved in that as well… So feel free to browse.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, I will make sure to have all of those links, including the link to your book, accessible on today’s show notes. Thank you for spending the time with us today on this very important topic.
Wendy Behary: Thank you, Jessica. Thanks for having me. It was nice to be with you.
I hope you enjoyed today’s interview with Wendy Behary. I just found her knowledge and her expertise so refreshing, to just have such clarity on the topic. And as I mentioned in the beginning of this show, I wanted to just offer a couple thoughts around if you notice criticism in your relationship, how it might differ when narcissism is at play, versus when it’s not. So one of the things that you might have heard in the interview, as Wendy was pointing out, the underlying goal and need will be different. Narcissists will tend to want to win – win approval, and always perhaps be on top. And as in relationship, you might find this quality of like “I don’t even matter. They don’t even see me. I feel like this is just one-sided.” So there’s a quality to the dynamic that will feel different. And again, this is on a spectrum.
I had a couple come in, and the wife had printed out 25 pages of online stuff around how to tell if your partner is a narcissist, and… Look, there’s a spectrum here. I think we can have tendencies, or features of narcissism… And I worked with a couple actually for an extensive period of time – I would say it was like 6 or 7 sessions – and he was listening and he was attuning and he was empathizing… So while he might be very dominant and assertive in his approach, he was very willing and had really shown up for her and their life together. They’re a little older; their children were adults… And so he was really attuning to her. So what I find with couples – when one person softens, the other responds. That’s the mutual give and take that she was saying narcissists typically have a really difficult time with. They’re underdeveloped and unskilled in that arena.
I will say, when couples have been entrenched in some deep disconnect patterns and they come in and there’s a real sense of perhaps being withdrawn from the relationship, or ready for divorce, or contemplating leaving, there can be a lot to unpack, and this can be difficult. So let’s say you’re someone who notices that they criticize, and the patterns have been so difficult, and perhaps you’re concerned the relationship is gonna be dissolving… Now, if you start implementing some of the things that I recommend, or teach, or support, and exercises in the course, or perhaps even just indicate in the guide, oftentimes it’s not gonna be an on and off. You’re not gonna see a 180 immediately, because the patterns are so entrenched. It takes sometimes a moment for your partner to trust or recognize that you’re showing up differently and how to respond to that… And that’s where getting support can be really helpful, because it can be a little demotivating if you’re putting all this energy and taking this huge risk to be a little more clear, to be a little more vulnerable and soften, and your partner doesn’t respond. That’s probably your biggest fear. So to have some safety and a container for that can be helpful.
Or conversely, if you feel strong enough and regulated enough to stay at it for at least six months to give your partner some time to build some stability and consistency and trust – and they might start to be like “Okay, well, we can’t do the same dance that we used to do” or “I can’t approach you in the same way because you’re not responding, or you’re not doing the dance with me that we’ve done in the past, so I’ve gotta approach this a little differently, or I’ve gotta pivot.”
So there’s some just thoughts for you to consider. Again, it’s just a little drop in the bucket, but I wanted to speak to that, since I talk about criticism so much, and Wendy Behary is mentioning it as a common behavior of narcissists… I just wanted to give some perspective around that.
Again, if you wanna reach out to Wendy, I wanna encourage you to check out the show notes and have access to the links that she mentioned. And again, you can find the show notes on DrJessicaHiggins.com click on the top navigation bar Podcast, and there you can find all the episodes, and the most recent episodes are at the top. Again, today’s episode is 226, “How to understand and deal with a narcissist”, an interview with Wendy Behary.
Thank you for listening, and until next time, I hope you take great care.
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