Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 240, “How to prevent a breakup in your relationship”, an interview with Chris Seiter.
Before we get started, I wanna just take a moment and center with you, perhaps feeling your heart, and just taking a breath and acknowledging what’s alive in you related to what you’re feeling and what you’re experiencing in your heart. Perhaps you might feel some protection, some closed sensation, or perhaps you’re feeling really open-hearted. Just bringing your attention to that space within you, and then just acknowledging whatever is there, and letting it be okay.
One of the goals as I offer tips, tools, research, other experts’ information for you to consider on the Empowered Relationship podcast, is for you to feel support, and to feel some guidance as you navigate relationship. Our heart, the space in our center of our chest often is a feeling place, a sensation place that relates to relationship and love. And so it can be a good place to check in with from time to time, to just notice what you’re feeling and what you’re experiencing, and whatever sensation that you’re noticing is perfect. There’s no goal in this. It’s just using this as information, perhaps feedback, perhaps learning.
If you notice protection or notice closed sensation, that that could be some indication that there’s some fear, or injury, or resentment, or hurt, and that is important to acknowledge, so that we can work through that, perhaps have healing, perhaps have repair. Because we wanna cultivate relationships that are safe, that are life-giving, that are authentic and deeply intimate in the truest sense of that term.
And the conversations that happen on this show are intended to support you in that. Not only to support you in your development, but also to help you cultivate a happy, lasting, loving, connected relationship with your significant other. And knowing that there’s gonna be a wide range of experiences for us to encounter in relationship, some of which might surprise us or be unfamiliar or even scary. So being able to have support along this journey can be really, really helpful. All that to say that the Empowered Relationship podcast is intended to support you, for you to feel better equipped, more prepared in navigating long-term intimacy.
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Chris Seiter, the founder of Ex Boyfriend Recovery and Ex Girlfriend Recovery has been helping thousands of broken hearted individuals win their exes back for over a decade.
Implementing the very creative “no contact rule,” which shuts down communication between exes for a certain period of time, such in order to create space for each partner allows for healing, self recovery, and an opportunity for both to potentially come back together as a couple, which Chris believes is the key to long lasting success.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Chris, thank you so much for joining us today.
Chris Seiter: No problem, thank you for having me.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, and I know one of your big focuses is to help people who are experiencing a breakup and possibly still wanting to explore how to perhaps win their ex back, or work with what they’re experiencing in a breakup… And I guess I’m just interested in learning what got you into focusing on that?
Chris Seiter: That’s a really great question, and it’s also a really interesting story. Everyone always expects me to have the origin story where I went through this devastating breakup, and everything like that, but that’s actually not true. I was in college, and there was a girl who was sitting next to me, and I made friends with her. And then one day I just show up to class and she’s gone. And I’m like “Where did she go?” So I text here and I say “Hey, you missed class”, and she said “Oh yeah, I moved away.” She moved away, and had moved in with her boyfriend at the time.
But anyways, her and I kind of kept in touch, and we kind of had a pretty good talking relationship I guess you could say… And then one day out of the blue I get this call from her, saying that her boyfriend broke up with her. Just sort of sitting there and thinking “Well, that’s unfortunate. I’m so sorry to hear that.” And I was just kind of listening to her and kind of letting her vent.
And then the next day she called again, and said “I am pregnant. What do I do? I want him back so desperately.” And so if you could say I have a super-power, it’s my curiosity; I’ve always been the kind of person that just likes to peel back the layers and get to the heart of the problem… So I got kind of curious, like “What would it take to help someone in this situation actually reestablish a healthy relationship with the guy?”
So I went online and started searching and found that pretty much everything was not really up to par. I was at school, taking a humanities degree, and I was actually in the middle of a psychology class; I was asking the teacher a bunch of questions, and everything… And I was at the same time learning web design, so I basically just created this website called “Ex Boyfriend Recovery”, just because I thought it was a cool, catchy name, and I just put my notes on there.
It was just a lot of trial and error back and forth. It eventually took her like 7-8 months, and I do think it’s a bit rigged, in the fact that she was pregnant, so he felt like kind of there was a kinship between them because of that… So she did get him back, but what was really interesting is as I’m putting my notes down, all of a sudden I see all these people are coming and reading my notes on the website. It was just shocking; a hundred people were reading this stuff, and they were asking questions, and commenting… So I was just sort of commenting back, and it was just like “This is really weird.”
And then it basically just kind of continued like that, to the point where I was just answering people’s question for like 5 hours a day. It started getting really out of hand (I guess you could say) when there was like 10,000 people reading the website. I was just crunched. They were asking me so many questions, I was getting overwhelmed… So I decided to kind of treat it like a study. “What will actually work?” So I just started kind of doing scientific methods, or the Socratic method, where you have a hypothesis, you test it, and you just kind of get to the bottom… And I basically came up with this framework; people just liked this stuff, and they kept going back, and I kept hearing back… There were all these success stories, and I got to interview a bunch of them.
As time went on, I just basically learned that this is odd, but the best way of getting your ex back is not to care if you get them back or not, which is a really hard thing for people to come to, especially when they’re going through a breakup. They want that person back so badly. So that’s kind of the origin story, the very quick version.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right, yes. I’m sure we could take the whole interview talking about your journey with this… But it does help for people who may not know you well to kind of understand where you’re coming from. And as I listen, I just know so often in my own life, in my own story and journey, as well as people who reach out when they’re either in the process of a breakup or on the heels of a breakup, it can be such fertile ground for learning, self-development… And I just wonder if that’s part of what you’re helping people with.
Chris Seiter: Yeah. Honestly, I don’t think there’s a better use of your own time than focusing on yourself. And this is actually a really — so it seems simple to us from an objective point of view, but for most people who are going through the emotions or kind of in the grind of the breakup, it is extremely difficult to get them to focus on themselves, as opposed to focusing on factors they have no control over… Like “What is he/she thinking?” and so on. So a lot of our work is getting people to refocus on themselves, and just use that time wisely… And it has still been a challenge, to this day.
I can’t say I’m super-successful in doing it all the time, because it’s such a difficult thing to get people to not focus so much on if he’s dating the new girl, or if she’s dating some new guy. We find our success stories tend to be the people who are able to focus on themselves… And often, we kind of get people to go through this program that we’ve created that is designed to essentially run them through this gauntlet; and if they come out the end of the gauntlet and still want their ex back, then we feel like “Okay, give it your best shot. We can’t guarantee anything, but give it your best shot.”
But more often than not, what we find is half the people who go through this gauntlet we’ve created just don’t want their exes back anymore. We’re kind of like killing two birds with one stone, so to speak.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. And my hope, Chris, is that most listeners listening to the Empowered Relationship Podcast are in relationship, and some are really looking to do relationship well, so I’m hoping that we can hear some of your insights and your system, and support people that are in relationship, or even perhaps having struggle, but helping them maybe preventatively do some of the inner work. Because I talk about my own journey, and when I had a tense breakup, and gratefully, I had already done a masters, and I had done my undergrad in psych, and I grew up in a pretty progressive family, so I had the orientation to look at myself… But it was still incredibly painful and difficult.
And I did fortunately have a dialogue with my ex, so it wasn’t like — people are often in the situation where they don’t have closure, they don’t have the understanding… I think that’s really hard to grapple with. But I think you’re so spot on in that we can’t control, and even if — as much as we want that closure or that understanding or those insights, we often don’t get that. So help us with some of what you’ve found in your experiment and study with people that were reaching out.
Chris Seiter: Well, so there’s a lot to uncover for sure, but probably the most interesting that we’ve found is this concept of tactical empathy. A lot of times we’re finding that our clients that go through our program have this problem of understanding the difference between sympathy and empathy. Empathy is basically the ability to understand emotions of someone else without actually feeling the emotions, and sympathy is the physical display of empathy. So oftentimes we’re having people go through breakups and they just want to fix things; they want to physically do something. But we’ve found actually the key really when it comes to starting dialogue with exes is to disarm them with empathy, which is actually taking yourself out of your own perspective and trying to understand their perspective. One of the best ways that you can do this is actually called labeling of emotions.
Imagine this for an example – you’re in a meeting, and it’s a sales pitch. So you are trying to prevent this client from leaving your brand, or something. You already know the client wants to they take their money out, they want to leave, and probably these are their objections. Well, a lot of people try to approach that negotiation, so to speak, without even talking about that. And it’s like this big elephant in the room. And I think this happens all the time in relationships, but just stick with the weird analogy here…
So one of the smartest things you can do is actually — the first thing you can do the second they walk into that room is you sit them down and you talk about the elephant in the room by literally labeling what it is… Like “Hey, I know you’re feeling this” or “I know you’re feeling that. I know you’re feeling this thing.” And what it does is it just kind of disarms them, and it’s a really clever way of displaying empathy. You’re diving down into things that they haven’t verbalized, but they’re thinking internally.
We find that the more people do this, especially in dialogue with exes when there’s so much contention, it just disarms things and makes things a lot easier, so that they’re a lot more open to what you have to say.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, it starts to reduce the intensity; you’re naming something, and that cultivates typically the feeling of feeling seen, and understood… And even if there’s no opportunity to get back together, it’s still that positive experience of feeling seen.
Chris Seiter: It’s a good way of getting closure as well. Like you said, there’s a lot of people who just simply want closure. I’m actually working with a client right now – her ex is extremely contentious. He had bought this gigantic thing for her… It was well over $1,000, and he’s contesting it with the credit card company, trying to be angry, and mad, and saying mean things to her… And all she wants is just a conversation to have closure. So this is a concept that I’ve been talking to her; I said “Look, when you talk to him, make sure you label what he’s feeling. The kind of feelings that he’s thinking, but not actually saying.” It almost disarms him and makes him want to talk. And she did that, and it worked. She got sort of the conversation that she actually wanted.
The other thing we actually are finding is this concept — have you ever heard of the 7/38/55 rule? The rule basically states that 7% of meaning is communicated through spoken word, 38% is through the tone of voice, and 55% is through body language. So a lot of times my clients are so obsessed – especially the millennials nowadays – with text messaging. But the 7/38/55 rule – we can kind of debate its accuracy…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I think I always say over 80% is non-verbal…
Chris Seiter: Yeah, yeah. So basically, that’s the point. So many people are not actually sitting down, having conversations in-person, or sometimes even over video can be just as effective. I mean, how often have we sent a text to someone with a specific meaning, and they took it the wrong way because they can only read it a certain way, and they take it the wrong way? There’s no tone of voice there.
So I think paying attention to those things – your tone of voice, and your body language when you actually have conversations when your relationship is getting contentious is kind of an undervalued aspect of keeping the relationship thriving.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. And just a moment ago you were talking about disarming… I do think that people have to fight sometimes to feel heard, and it starts to escalate… So if someone’s pausing to take that time to really hear, and like you’re saying, if it’s direct contact, I think it does offer so much more information. And then when somebody starts talking, then we have access to the deeper information and the real need, that somebody’s the real crux of it.
Chris Seiter: Right, right. And I think the key — at least from my perspective… And my perspective might be a little bit different from yours, because you focus more on the relationship itself and keeping it healthy. My focus is on “Okay, well how do you re-attract this individual and then keep them?”
From my perspective, I’ve found that the successful people tend to be able to identify their partner’s problems… This empathy concept of like the thing that they’re not saying, and being able to solve them in a way that no one else can. But sometimes getting to a stage where your ex or whoever you broke up with is willing to even have that conversation is the big challenge.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: In light of that, is this part of what you offer in your framework, is being able to name the emotion and then recognizing the text or written is very limited, and then – are you speaking to another aspect?
Chris Seiter: Yeah, so the framework is kind of — I’m just giving the juicy stuff. [laughs] The framework is actually a little bit different, because a lot of times before you even should consider talking to your ex, you need to make sure you’re in the right place emotionally. I think this is pretty much across the board, no matter where you are in relationship. You probably wanna have the conversation with your partner at a time where you’re going to be more even-keeled.
I think the issue most people tend to have with breakups when they’re coming to me is they tend to like to rush the process. They tend to like to go right to seeing their ex in-person. And oftentimes the timing just isn’t right for that. So we kind of teach people to first rebuild a little bit of rapport through text messaging, and then try some of the more advanced stuff, like talking on the phone, or doing videos back and forth, or Facetime… And then, once you’ve built that foundation, then see your ex in-person, so that you’re not going to push them into doing something that they don’t want to do.
The more often you try to get someone to do what you want them to do when they don’t wanna do it makes them more defensive, so you need to kind of disarm them first. But that’s of course where the tactical empathy comes into play.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And how does that work with what you’ve said a little earlier around not wanting to get back with them. So even though you might really want your ex back–
Chris Seiter: I kind of get where you’re going… A lot of that stuff, not wanting to get your ex back — so I always tell my clients, when you go through a breakup, you should go through this period of no contact. Anywhere between 21 to 45 days. And just think of it like a time that you’re dating yourself. You don’t care about anyone else except yourself. That’s the time when you wanna just kind of work — and I kind of talk about getting in a flow state… You know, basketball players often talk about “I was in the zone. I shot and I couldn’t miss.” Well, you kind of want to get the momentum going, so that you feel you’re in your own flow state when it comes to treating yourself.
You talked about how you went through a breakup and it turned out to be one of the best things that happened to you, because you got to look a lot at your priorities or yourself. We’re trying to get people to do that before they even consider talking to their ex. So that means — look, oftentimes just talking to your ex after the breakup for 21 days or something just gets you in more trouble, and confuses you more.
So we tend to tell people “If it’s possible, just ignore them for a few days.” Just like “Hey look, this isn’t about them, this is about you.” A lot of women – and men, for that matter – have a lot of problems with this. We find that around 80% of people do not complete a no-contact rule. They will break it at some point. And for them, we always say “Well, start over. It’s not about your ex, it’s about you. Get to the right place emotionally before you even consider trying to talk to them.”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Do you have any tools that you help people with what to do instead? Because look, so many people have their phone in their hand, and you have social media…
Chris Seiter: Yes. Oh my gosh, that’s so true. So for me to give you a tool, I need to tell you a little bit about the primer story first. So a few years ago my wife was telling me about Facebook groups. I’m sure you’re very familiar with Facebook groups. But me – I’m not super-technical; when it comes to social media, I am not the best. I just kind of like stand my own zone. But she was like “You need to do these Facebook groups. It would be great to have just like a support group for people going through breakups.
So I ceded to her wished and created this support group. And it has been amazing, just seeing all the clever ideas people come up with to stop themselves from not picking up. Probably the best one I’ve ever seen is to erase — so write your ex’s phone number down on a piece of paper, erase his number from your phone, and give his phone number to a trusted friend and say “Do not give this back to me until 30 days.”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: [laughs]
Chris Seiter: Most people aren’t willing to do that. So the next best thing – and I can’t claim credit for this, because this is just the beautiful people in the support group… They will literally change their ex’s name to say “Do Not Contact.” So every time it’s like an instant reminder.
And then probably the third most effective thing is getting into a support group where you’re surrounded by individuals who know what you’re going through and have seen – not everything, but a lot of what goes on. And before you have the temptation of contacting them, just contact the group first and say “I’m having a moment of weakness. Talk me out of this.” And we’ve seen that work extremely well. But even despite that, we can’t get — still 80% break it. So I’m still searching for the key…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, I get it… When we’re in pain, we’re looking for relief, and so sometimes it feels like that’s the most direct path to that relief, is with that person… But look, I think this translates to people in relationship who are caught in a destructive pattern and they’re looping; this vicious cycle, it can be so compulsive, to wanna continue with the same pattern, hoping it will be different, but we’re really looking for relief. So if we can have that pause, get regulated, and perhaps have a little bit of an insider understanding inward, then we might have different information to then —
Chris Seiter: Yeah. It’s really interesting that you brought that up, because one of the things that I’ve been looking at lately is the difference between just a first-time break-up and then the on again/off again relationships.
So if you were to ask me “Hey, Chris, what situation–” and there’s tons of situations, like long-distance relationship, like sharing kids, being pregnant… There’s all sorts of different types of breakups. But if you were to say “Chris, what is the breakup that you would wanna have, that would give you the best chance of getting back together?” I would say on again/off again relationships. Because oftentimes the challenge isn’t getting back together, it’s actually stopping that loop that you’re talking about. More often than not, those relationships don’t have a hard time in successfully reuniting, they have a hard time in going forward.
I have found that the best thing for them is to focus on identifying what’s causing the problems in the first place, and more often than not, it’s a really challenging problem to solve, because one person can be willing to solve it, but if the other isn’t, you’re just in the same place you are. So sometimes in those situations you need to get those people to look past the relationship, and sometimes that is helping them understand “What are your end goals here? Are you looking to marry this person?” and more often than not I find that they’re not. They’re just scared of being alone. So that’s a separate problem that you have to work them through; almost like therapy, in a way.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that you’re saying that. I have heard that from several people. It’s afraid of being alone, and then also afraid I’m not gonna find anyone else, or anyone else better. So it’s like that person that they were with – that’s what they have in their mind as the vision of relationship, and it’s hard to imagine anything else.
Chris Seiter: Yeah. So I kind of think the key for people like that is to take that time for themselves and get to this point where they almost stop putting that person on a pedestal… Because I see this is something that women tend to do more than men, oddly enough… So there are differences between how women and men handle relationships, and what works and what doesn’t work… But women, I find, have a more difficult problem when it comes to placing their partners on pedestals. So it’s almost like they give their partner extra power that they don’t really deserve.
Some of the stories you hear from these women – these men treat them very poorly, and they’re just so blind to that fact. So a lot of our job is to kind of pull the wool off their eyes so they can see the situation for what it really is.
And more often than not, that works to get them to a point where they’re like “Hey, you’re right”, that epiphany that you’re hoping they’ll have… But every once in a while it can be challenging.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, I’ve seen that too, where women are so invested in the relationship; they put so much in it that they almost lost sight/perspective around how maybe poorly they’ve been traeted… And I think what I’ve seen with men is the self-esteem. If they’re still feeling like “Oh, I don’t know if I can find anyone better”, it’s their own self-esteem.
Chris Seiter: Right. Yeah, it’s an interesting concept too, because look at the difference between how men and women view those relationships. They’re both kind of in the same spot, bu the women seem to be more into like “Look how much I’ve invested into this. I can’t let this go. I’ve spent money on the relationship” or “I’ve done this.” Or “He was about to propose to me.” I can’t tell you how often we see men just stringing these women along, like “Oh yeah, let’s go look at rings”, but never buy the ring, or make any kind of meaningful commitment.
Then the men, of course, are really down on themselves, and they feel like the world’s out to get them, and they can’t ever find someone else… I don’t know, I just find that stuff fascinating. Maybe I’m weird…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: No, I’m curious… Are there other gender differences that you feel like are really important?
Chris Seiter: Yeah, I do, actually… I actually think men have an easier time throughout the process, because they tend to be more of the initiators when it comes to the stereotypical “Oh yeah, the guy’s gotta go out and get the number. The guy’s gotta go out and make the first move.” But what’s really interesting is I had this idea a few years ago and said “Well, what if women just started being the initiators to their exes? Would that work?” And we’ve found that works extremely well. Maybe it’s an interesting study done on some of the dynamic changes between women and men. It’s a little bit more equal now than it used to be.
I find that what tends to work really well when it comes to starting a conversation with an ex is really interesting. For women, it tends to be what we call “damsel in distress” type of messages, which is like “Hey, I’ve got a really big problem, and I really only trust you to help me with it.” So it’s almost like it taps into his hero complex. Whereas women – they tend to be more nurturing by nature.
So men contacting their exes, the example that I used really well was there was a coaching client of mine who broke his collar bone, and his ex was like an X-ray technician. So he sent a picture of the X-ray he got, and he said “Hey, I could use your help on this.” And that just got that conversation flowing. So those are some of the other interesting differences I’ve noticed between the genders.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Mm-hm. And it just stands out to me that so often in couplehood it’s having your person, that inner, inner bond that no one else is a part of, and so to turn to someone in a real critical moment – that’s really special. So when we feel that, even though the relationship is dissolved perhaps, but the bond of turning to someone – that can feel special.
Chris Seiter: Yeah, it’s like a deeper trust built throughout that… It tends to work better, obviously, for couples who’ve been together for like a year or more, but that’s usually the majority of the couples that we’re dealing with, have been together for over a year.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Mm-hm. I’ve done several podcasts on the gender differences around articulating emotion… I really believe men and women have about equal capacity for emotions and empathy, it’s just the articulation of it – women typically have a lot more experience, whether or not their parents or their mother talked to them about emotions… And then having girlfriends throughout school years… There’s just a lot more time spent. Does that play a part in what you’re seeing as far as the work you’re doing?
Chris Seiter: So what’s really interesting about that point is I actually don’t have to go into “What am I seeing on the ground?” I can actually go just on differences. So I have two websites – Ex Boyfriend Recovery (for women), and Ex Girlfriend Recovery (for men). Which one do you think is more successful? It is by far women. Because women – and this is really interesting… Women will go out and talk to their friends. They have the support group. So you get the word of mouth going. Men don’t.
Men hardly comment on the articles, women comment a ton. It does show you that men try to first solve their problems by themselves, before they start asking for help. Women immediately go and start reaching out to friends, sometimes family, sometimes they’re a little too embarrassed to talk to their family about a break-up… They’re a lot more active in that Facebook group I was talking about.
Not to say that men can’t articulate well. I have seen men articulate extremely well, but they’re just almost embarrassed to talk about their emotions, and I think this does have something to do with how men are typically raised… Like “Hey, deal with your stuff on your own” type stuff. I find that women actually tend to prefer men who are able to articulate it. It drives them up the wall when they can’t, because oftentimes you have some of those avoidant attachment type styles, where they just avoid the situation altogether…
So yeah, I think women tend to be a lot better at articulating, and just even talking in general about their emotions. Men, in my experience, tend to be a little bit more internal. Not to say that there aren’t some exceptions to that rule, because there definitely are.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: For sure. Agreed. Well, Chris, there’s such a wealth here, and I’m just curious, are there other things that you see in people’s journey, and the coaching, and the programs that you have, that perhaps are important to name, and that perhaps people in relationship can benefit from?
Chris Seiter: Yeah… I think this is something that you can probably talk about has connotations with no matter what type of relationship you’re in; whether it’s a break-up, or you’re in the middle of a relationship… And this is the concept of finding something that is as important as that other person. I often tell my clients “What’s your Magnum Opus? What is the one thing that when you’re gone, you want to be remembered by?” And most of the times I don’t hear like “Oh, I wanna be remembered for this relationship.” It’s something else.
So getting people to realize that you need to have your own identity in the relationship to be kind of normal is okay. Most of the clients I get are in this place where they have these healthy, dependent type relationships, or these dependent type triggers, where their whole identity is wrapped up in this relationship… And getting them to realize “Look, there’s more to life than just this one person, and being in this relationship with this one person.” Also find and cultivate those other things that you’re really passionate about, that can be as important, so that you’re not just so overwhelming the other person.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: So not losing yourself, and being able to have vitality and health beyond just that relationship.
Chris Seiter: Exactly, yeah.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, Chris, I’m curious, do you have in your own mind a definition of success with the population of people you’re working with?
Chris Seiter: Yeah, so success for me is pretty simple. It’s if you feel like when you come to me and you go through a program, you feel like you’re in a better place emotionally. That’s my goal with everyone. I don’t technically care if you get your ex back or not, I just care that you’re in a better place emotionally, so that you feel like “Look, this helped me.”
Obviously, we do study what works when it comes to re-attracting that person… Sometimes the odds are stacked against the individuals, but if they try to go through the program, or the template or the framework that we’ve created, they’re gonna be in a better place emotionally, because we’re gonna get them to do healthy things, and focus on themselves. So for me, that’s the definition of success.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: It just sounds like you’re not necessarily attached to the outcome, you’re really in service of their healing and their becoming.
Chris Seiter: Yes, that’s 100% correct. Most people are obsessed with the outcome when they come to us… So we do talk about the outcome, I’m not saying that, but a lot of the work we have them do is kind of a kill two birds with one stone mentality. It’s like “Look, this work can help you get your ex back, but more importantly, it’s guaranteed to help you with how you’re feeling about this situation. So why not try to do both? And if you come out the other end and you don’t want your ex back anymore – perfect. That’s cool, too.”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right. And I guess from your vantage point, or my vantage point, it sounds like you have the ability to know and see for them what that emotionally better place will offer them… Whether or not it’s getting back with their ex in a different capacity, so that they have a better relationship, or something better.
Chris Seiter: Yeah… So really what’s helped me with regards to that is actually talking to people who’ve succeeded in getting their exes back, so you can actually find out what they did, what patterns are pretty consistent… But my favorite people to talk to are people who decided not to get their exes back. Both are equally powerful to me, because both are extremely happy at the end of the day… Though when you’re in the emotions of the moment, it’s hard to see that far ahead.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Exactly. That’s why it’s important to have somebody that can offer a little bit of the lay of the land, and then offer the guidance… And I imagine too, Chris, that when people do get their ex back, they’re gonna be cultivating a new relationship. It’s not necessarily like they want the old relationship back. That didn’t work for a good reason, I’m sure.
Chris Seiter: Yeah, so the interesting thing is that’s kind of our go-to motto when they get in the program. We’re like “Hey, look, you’re not gonna get your old relationship back. No matter what, you’re not gonna get it back. Something will be different the next time around, but you need to strive to create a new and better one.” But I will say, the people who are successful getting their exes back, half of them do not listen. Or maybe it’s not a function of them not listening… They clearly want it, but they don’t implement the necessary measures to make it happen.
I think I read something with regards to — I guess it would be an analogy… They were doing a study on people who get kidney or liver transplants… You know how you have to get on the list, and you have to live this really healthy, clean lifestyle… And they were studying people who did not have healthy lifestyles, and they were saying “Hey, this will give you a second chance at life if you get this. Will you change?” And they’re like “Oh yeah, doctor, I’ll change. I’ll change, for sure.” And maybe at first they did a little bit, but almost always they go back to their set things.
So really teaching them and giving people the tools to understand “Hey, these are the problems in your relationship. Take a good, hard look at yourself and at your ex”, because half of this is revolving around them, too. Part of it is out of your control. You just have to get your partner on board, whether that’s going to couples counseling, or talking through your problems in a very healthy way. It’s not always easy for people… So our challenge is also to try to give people tools to make sure that that can happen.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Mm-hm. I have a friend – a pretty good friend – and she’s in this limbo phase with her (I guess) ex, and they’ve broken up twice. And what gets her is the — she really loves him, and she sees the potential of what they didn’t cultivate. Because they didn’t communicate well… And granted, there’s so much to it… But to what you’re saying, around a new relationship, or being able to have these conversations… I think some people get caught on the potential, and some people, like you said a little while ago, some people are a no, and you have to accept that, too.
Chris Seiter: Right. And that’s why it was hard, too… I always try to explain it to people like this – it’s like a probability game, when you’re actually trying to win someone back. So I lay out the strategies for you and say “These are the options that have the highest probability”, and you make the choice of implementing them. Sometimes if you don’t implement them properly, guess what – the probability is not gonna be as high. But when you implement them, you’re given a new set of probabilities, with new strategies, and you just kind of rinse and repeat with the highest probability until you run out of things with high probabilities to work.
At that point, you can lay your head down at the end of the day and say “I did everything I could. I can go to sleep and be happy with the fact that I put my max effort in.” But it’s a lot more complicated than that, obviously.
What I find is what tends to bond people together — so I kind of always tell people “Look, I deal with breakups all day. I see so much of what causes people to break up.” And I always tell people there’s this leaning scale – some people want stability in a relationship, some people want mystery. And most people want different percentages of both. And usually, if you’re too stable, your partner will complain about “Hey, we’re not adventurous or spontaneous enough.” And if you’re too adventurous, they’re like “Hey, you’re not stable enough.” And you have to find a way to balance these things…
So what I’m wondering is if it was maybe just like a little too stable, and he was wanting maybe a little bit more spontaneity… And sometimes the best way to do that is to actually experience a new first together. I find nothing tends to bond people together closer than shared first experiences. And that’s extremely difficult to do when you’ve been with someone for a long period of time.
And even adding a new layer of difficulty is the Covid. We’re finding that breakups are happening a lot more often because of Covid, which is a really odd state of affairs, because so many people are suffering, and then so many people are breaking up, so we’re getting a lot of people — it’s just this weird thing I’ve noticed.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah… No kidding. I know I have a client who broke up right before Covid hit the U.S, and he’s been basically isolating solo… I actually have two clients in that ballpark. So yes, for sure; I like to frame these conflicting needs as intimacy and autonomy, or you’re saying the spontaneity and the stability… So I think that is a classic challenge. And I think just even in humans – so many people [unintelligible 00:40:46.06]
Chris Seiter: Yeah, it’s almost paradoxical, isn’t it?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I know, yes.
Chris Seiter: They’re two conflicting things, yet we want both. But I find everyone has a different percentage of where they’re happy. Some people might like 60% stability and 40% mystery/spontaneity… Whereas some people are the exact opposite. Weirdly enough, you have to be empathetic to understand what’s your partner’s percentage. And it’s a really hard thing to figure out if your partner is not communicating with you.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Totally. I know. I feel like we could geek out on this… Because there’s something I came across in the last year, and I think it comes out of the Highly Sensitive Person research with Elaine Aron. She was talking about the trait of sensation-seeking. That there’s people — it’s like blue eyes versus brown eyes. It’s actually not something that we learn, it’s just innate. And there are people that really want that newness–
Chris Seiter: Is that genetic?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, and there’s conflict, where one person’s wanting to move a lot, and the other one is like “I don’t wanna be disrupted or uprooted”, and it can be a conflict…
Chris Seiter: In that study, did they look at all about like childhood?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah.
Chris Seiter: I feel like that would inform that a lot, wouldn’t it?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I mean, she’s done a lot of research, so I can send you… I think it’s in Highly Sensitive Person In Love that she talks about that… Because there’s these different variables in how people pair, and what’s at play. She’s really honing in on sensitivity, and qualities/traits around that.
Chris Seiter: That stuff is fascinating to me.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I know, I know… You get two curious people together, Chris, and we’re gonna just like [unintelligible 00:42:30.19]
Chris Seiter: I know. A ten-hour podcast. [laughs]
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah. Okay, so I do know that people who are in pain, whether or not they’ve had a break-up, or are really contemplating these deeper relationship principles, it sounds like you have just such a wealth to offer in your programs, in your coaching, in your forum, in your groups… I can hear how connected you are to the people that reach out, and I know you’ve had to scale this… But I hear where it came from, and just how much contact, and that you really let people inform and teach you, but also you’re continuing to evolve your work… So I just love that it’s — it’s not grassroots, but it just feels like there’s such [unintelligible 00:43:10.16]
Chris Seiter: It feels to me totally grassroots, really…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay.
Chris Seiter: Sometimes I wake up and I’m like — I just can’t believe my life. In high school if I was to mark it up, I thought I’d be like a professional baseball player, or something. Not like a breakup coach, or a relationship coach. But I love it. I wouldn’t trade it for the world. It’s what I should have been doing earlier, I even think… But I feel almost like I accidentally stumbled upon this treasure trove…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: How do people — so you have the two websites…
Chris Seiter: Yeah, so two websites – one for men, one for women. Obviously, ExBoyfriendRecovery.com for women, ExGirlfriendRecovery.com for men. I’ve got two podcasts called – wait for it… Ex Boyfriend Recovery Podcast, and – wait for it – Ex Girlfriend Recovery Podcast… [laughs] So I don’t have the cool name like The Empowered Relationship Podcast like Jessica here, but I try my best.
O always tell people “Look, there’s no pressure to buy anything.” I give away 70% of the information I teach for free, so if you wanna just come to the websites and just read the articles that I put a lot of effort into… I actually put a lot of effort into the YouTube videos explaining these concepts, especially more the recent ones on Ex Boyfriend Recovery… Because I feel like a lot of the people listening are probably in relationships, and a lot of the applications I’m talking about in more recent episodes and articles are probably more geared towards that.
So there’s no pressure to buy anything, or anything like that. Just hop over to the website and see if you like it. If not, if it’s not for you, cool. Come back to Jessica and never leave her. [laughs]
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, I think we all have a voice and we all have something that will resonate, so I’m big on supporting and on collaborating, and I love how much you’re really helping people navigate this incredibly painful — I mean, it can be one of the hardest things to deal with.
Chris Seiter: Yeah, they say moving, divorce and death are the most difficult things that human beings will go through… And breakups are almost like divorce, in a weird way…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: The stress, for sure…
Chris Seiter: Yeah.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Alright, I’ll make sure to put those links on today’s show notes for your YouTube and your websites, and thank you, Chris, for what you’re doing and sharing time with us today.
Chris Seiter: Thank you for having me.
I hope you have enjoyed today’s episode, again, with Chris Seiter. If you would like access to today’s show notes, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast there at the top navigation bar, and you’ll find all of the episodes listed. The most recent ones are at the top. Again, today’s episode is 240, how to prevent a breakup in your relationship, an interview with Chris Seiter.
On the show notes you’ll also find a free guide, “Shifting criticism into connected communication”, and I’m putting this here as many of you have potentially heard me talk about on this show the criticism and defensive pattern that is so, so destructive to the love and the connection in relationship is really important to shift out of, so that you can get into more connection pattern, and be able to communicate in a way that supports the relationship, supports understanding and supports resolution. You’ll find in this guide a very clear contrast, giving you a specific language to implement immediately, so hopefully you can feel a shift… And then there you’ll also get access to more information around the dynamics at play, and what to be considering. Again, you can find all of this on today’s show notes, DrJessicaHiggins.com, Podcast, and episode 240.
Until next time, I hope you take great care.
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