Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 241, “How to prevent your smartphone from hurting your relationship”, an interview with Dr. Lori Whatley.
Before we get started, I wanna take a moment and just center with you, just finding our ground, and just being present in this very moment. I think it’s just such an important practice to just take a moment of grounding in such busy lives that we all have. And as we prepare to absorb information and learn about relationship principles, dynamics, tips, tools to consider, just finding a center place can be really helpful, particularly when you’re thinking about how this fits for you personally, what’s up for you in your life as it relates to relationship.
And the goal on the Empowered Relationship Podcast is to support you, helping you feel better prepared, more well-equipped in negotiating the dynamics of long-term intimacy. Perhaps if you feel challenged, threatened, or even some level of activation in your nervous system, there is opportunity for growth, for learning for development. Not only individually, but also within your relationship. To deepen your intimacy, deepen your trust, deepen the practice of developing safety and cultivating more authenticity, more happiness, more fulfillment and more passion.
To access today’s show notes, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast there in the top navigation bar, and you’ll find all of the episodes listed. Today’s episode is 241, “How to prevent your smartphone from hurting your relationship”, an interview with Dr. Lori Whatley.
With over 25 years of experience, Dr. Lori has worked with thousands of clients, both domestic and internationally. Through her countless hours of research, Dr. Lori’s commitment to helping businesses, families, and individuals overcome the problems created by device usage. Her book, The Effects of Texting on Marital Relationships, offers a poignant ,data-packed critique on texting within marriage, including its often negative impact.
In addition to working one-on-one with clients, Dr. Lori speaks to and advises businesses on the operational effects of over-connected employees, how to manage technology, distractions in the workplace, and drive employee productivity.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Dr. Lori Whatley, thank you so much for joining us today.
Dr. Lori Whatley: Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here and to get to share with you here today.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, and I think this is such an important topic that many people are faced with the challenge of, but couples — I remember doing a podcast very early, and there’s a term called technoference… So I do think that it is a huge interrupter. Before we get started into the nuts and bolts of what you’re gonna be sharing and offering today on that topic, how did you get into really focusing on this aspect?
Dr. Lori Whatley: I love that question, that is a great question, and it does have to do with couples. I am a practicing therapist, and when I was getting my doctorate, I needed to decide what I was gonna do my doctoral project on… I just could not decide, and it was like answer just came to me so clearly. Every day, as I was working with couples, digital devices came up, in my office, with the couples. Either she was upset because he was phubbing… Have you heard that term, phubbing?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, I have, but will you break that down?
Dr. Lori Whatley: Yeah, phubbing is like snubbing, but maybe they were on a date, and he was on his phone, and that’s called phubbing. Or maybe he was upset because they would get in bed at night, and he’d wanna talk, or whatever, and she had her kindle out, or she was texting with a friend, or online… Devices were just like popping up everywhere in my conversations with my couples, and I said “This is gonna be a problem going forward”, and this was like ten years ago. “This is gonna be a problem, and I need solutions. And that’s gonna require some research, and a whole new paradigm shift for me”, because it had become like the other person, the other woman or the other man in the relationship.
So I started doing the research on it, I fell in love with it, I found it so interesting. I was like “Oh my word, the world needs to know this. Our world needs to know how we are affected relationally and individually by our digital device usage.” So I did my project on it, they turned it into a book, and that was my first book. Then I wrote another book which just came out in February, “Connected and Engaged”, and it’s really about the ways that we are disconnected.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Great. Well, I would love to know if you’re willing to share – and I’ll make sure to have the links to the two books that you’re mentioning… What was the first book titled?
Dr. Lori Whatley: The first book is actually “The effects of texting on the marital relationship”, and it was actually my doctoral project.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Your dissertation, or…?
Dr. Lori Whatley: Yeah, it was. My committee turned it into a book, and it is on Amazon. It’s a lot of statistics, it’s really something I think is more academic… But I’ve decided I wanted something more user-friendly, and so my second book is a lot more user-friendly, I think.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Great. Like I said, I’ll make sure to have the links to those two books on today’s show notes… But for our conversation, what are some of the notable findings that relate to relationship and technology?
Dr. Lori Whatley: That it is truly like the other woman or the other man in a relationship. If you notice around you when you go out. Let’s say — well, now we’re not going out to dinner so much with Covid, but when we were, you could see a couple sitting together, and both of them on their phones. Just the two of them having a lovely dinner, having a glass of wine, and they were both on their phones.
I think that’s one way that it’s really affected our relationships and disconnected us… It affects our anxiety levels, we know that… And the twin of anxiety is depression; there’s been some research linked to too much usage in those things – it affects our sleep. And of course, when we’re not sleeping, we’re not pleasant to live with, so our productivity, our creativity – many areas of our life.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And what are you seeing — I mean, it just seems like, as you said, as more is available in the way of applications, and different platforms, that our usage is going up, in a lot of ways… And the sense of connection is often feeling like conversely related; we’re not feeling as connected, even if we might be interacting with people on social media. It’s not a real dialogue; there’s not a real relationship. These highlight wheels, or the things that we’re sharing, and we might be commenting, and there’s some exchange… But as you’re talking about with intimacy and intimate relationship – you were talking about how it can be a negative influence.
Dr. Lori Whatley: Absolutely. A like on social media is not the same as love in person. And sometimes people fill their time and their hours up with their social media world or their online world, and then they have no time left for in-person connection. And we know that in-person connection and touches and hugs and eye contact – those sorts of things lift our mood, they change our brain chemistry, and they’re very important for us as individuals. As a society, it’s very important that we learn balance, which is the key. I’m all for technology. It’s a wonderful tool. Imagine not having it the last few months; It’s enabled many of us to keep working… But if we use it in balance, we’re much more productive in work, much more creatively.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes… Thank you for saying that, because I think I was gonna ask you a question, and then I commented, and then I forgot to ask the question. But the question is “Where do you see this getting out of balance?” Because I think people can feel the tension of the compulsion to hop on their phone… They hop on their phone or their device to do something, and then they get distracted by something else, or even get interrupted, where we have a notification and we’re listening to someone, and it can pull our attention. Where does this become problematic? What are you seeing and hearing in your therapeutic space?
Dr. Lori Whatley: There’s a lot of research about this, Jessica, and it says it affects our focus. And it definitely affects our focus. Our attention span is much shorter now than it’s ever been, and we attribute some of that to the fact that we are constantly going down the rabbit hole, as you just described. Let’s say we’re on social media and we get a notification, and we go over here, then we go over there… Or we’re trying to maybe do some work online and we get a notification and we go over and deal with that over there… It takes 25 minutes for us to refocus completely on what we were doing…
Dr. Jessica Higgins: [laughs] Oh, goodness.
Dr. Lori Whatley: That’s a lot of lost time. So I think it’s essential for all of us — I know that when I started looking at this research I decided “You know, I wanna test some of this on myself. I’m just gonna leave my phone tonight, put it away, and when my partner comes home, I’m just gonna not have my phone at all, and I’m just gonna see how our night goes, and if we’re more connected”, and it was amazing. I realized, I have not really looked at him when he’s been talking to me, or I haven’t paid attention to the dinner that he cooked, because I was thumbing through something on my phone while I was eating, and I didn’t really notice how good it was, to tell him thank you and interact with him. It really was a game-changer for me because of that, because of the quality of life that improved when I balanced my technology use.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: No kidding. I’m actually really surprised how many times I hear that people are on their phones when they’re eating a meal with their significant other or with family… Or perhaps it’s kind of just always lingering… I remember reading something – this was years ago – that even the act of the phone being on the table or being visible reduces someone’s trust that they have that person’s attention… Because it’s like a threat.
Dr. Lori Whatley: And they feel dismissed. Even when they haven’t actually been, but they know that there’s a possibility of that… And you know if you’re dating a phubber, that you’re sitting there thinking “Well, if that phone buzzes or rings, they’re gonna pick it up, and I’m gonna be snubbed, and I’m gonna be dismissed.” And that doesn’t really feel good. A lot of people can’t really put their finger on what’s going on in their relationship and why they’re having problems… It’s interesting how — that’s a question I’ve added when I’m doing initial interviews with my couples; I’m like “How much digital device usage do you all have in your home?” and it always really is an eye opener.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And as we’re talking — there’s so many other things I wanna bring up, but just one thing that comes to mind at the moment is that it feels like a barrier. Sometimes it’s difficult to reach to our partner, to get their attention, but when they’re on a device it’s that much more pronounced; and as it relates to sex, if you’re thinking about somebody — a client was telling me when he comes to bed and she’s on their kindle, it’s like “Well, she’s probably not interested…” A large percentage of people are reading each other in the sense of “Are they available? Are they interested in those cues that we’re sending if our attention is totally engrossed in our device? How available do they seem?”
Dr. Lori Whatley: Well, it’s that narrative, like you said… It’s that narrative that we have going on in our head about our partner. Whether or not it is an accurate narrative, we watch their actions and we don’t listen to their words, hopefully… We watch their actions and we say “Wow, she said she’s available, but she brought the computer to bed. So I’m not feeling like she’s really interested.” It can be used kind of as a tool for avoidance, if you think about it.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. Okay, so it sounds like there’s not a real clear line that you would say “This is when it becomes problematic” or “These are the things that people typically experience, that it’s more of a problem.” It sounds like it’s difficult for people to put their name on it, or identify it, but that there’s often — if you’re interviewing your newer clients or couples, that there’s an impact that technology is having that perhaps they’re not even aware of.
Dr. Lori Whatley: Some of them are very aware. Others are like “I didn’t realize how distracted I’ve been” or “I didn’t realize how dismissive I have been.” Or the other partner is suddenly feeling dismissed… But I think they all know that if they are bringing their gadgets to bed at night, that it becomes problematic for their sleep, for their love life, for their partnership, just as far as going to bed together at night. Some couples make a point of that, and they just kind of talk about their day… And when you’re texting with someone else about your day, then that is a distraction from your relationship.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Totally. So I have some friends that Marco Polo, which is a video app… It’s so funny — like you’re saying, Lori, I’m very conscious of where my phone is and how much it’s on me, and being really protective of giving my husband my undivided attention… But he knows that I’m Marco Polo-ing, and he teases me about it, but it’s still present in his mind that it’s something that’s getting my attention, even if he’s not threatened or doesn’t feel slighted, it’s still — he’s aware and he teases me… Because it’s on my phone.
Dr. Lori Whatley: Yes, absolutely. You know, I have people that send me notes… Not my clients, but just people that go to my website and email me and say “You know, my spouse is always on social media” or “My spouse is putting some stuff on there about us that I’ve asked her not to put.” Maybe this is a real private person, and this other spouse is not. Pictures of where we went for dinner, or something; irrelevant, but… It’s important, and he’s like “I feel like my privacy is being infringed upon. I’ve tried to talk to her, and then I see it again the next day.” This is a whole new world for relationships to maneuver. It’s quite interesting.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. There’s so many points of possible connection… I have another couples where he really wants to have some meaningful conversation in the morning, and she’s often on her device, or reading the news, and she really loves that time, but it’s – again, how to find time when someone’s available… Or like you’re saying, what are the rules and agreements around what we share with others about our personal, sacred, private space. So what do you recommend for people?
Dr. Lori Whatley: Well, it’s funny, Jessica, because opposites often attract. We are attracted to our shadow self… So let’s say a person who is very outgoing will be attracted to someone who’s not so outgoing, so it makes sense that one is maybe posting everything on social media about their life, because they wanna share, and they don’t understand that for a person that’s very private or introverted, that is kind of crossing a line into privacy, and it feels kind of icky to them. And that can become a problem.
So I always do have couples address that, and have boundaries. Very clear boundaries with each other. “When are we gonna use our phones?” I always like to suggest the first hour that you wake up in the morning, even in an individual that’s not in a partnership – don’t look at your phone for the first hour… Because the first hour that you’re up sets the mood for the rest of the day. If you pick up your phone right now, there’s not a lot of positive on there. If you’re scanning through the news or whatever, and you set your day in that mode, it can begin your day in a negative, anxious way, and that just kind of snowballs throughout the day.
I recommend instead taking a walk with your partner, or having a cup of coffee together… Just sitting and having breakfast together, and a cup of coffee, and talking. That’s kind of a lost art now, without our phones in our hand.
Or maybe just do — I meditate the first 15 minutes before I get up. In the last 15 minutes of my day I do it to calm down at night… And it makes a huge difference in how I feel, and how my mind feels, and what my anxiety level is. And that works for couples as well.
So I’d say no devices in bed. I don’t even have screens in my bedroom, which was a huge thing for my husband to get used to. He was loving TV, and I’m like “Let’s just have TV in the living room.” That’s just something we’ve always done, and I think it’s been good.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Same with us, too. I think it’s a recommendation that the bedroom is for sleeping, for sex, and maybe reading. That there’s relaxation.
Dr. Lori Whatley: Absolutely. So we don’t work in the bed, we don’t have really serious conversations in our bedroom, and no screens at all. I think we would both agree that that’s been a really good boundary that we’ve had. We don’t take our phones when we go out to dinner; if we have a date, we do not take our phones. We don’t have our phones even when we’re having a meal in our home, they’re not around.
And as you said, even at night, there’s been many studies that if the phone is even in the room with you, you don’t sleep as well. Even if it’s not making a noise and it’s turned off, it’s on airplane mode, you still do not sleep as well. Isn’t that interesting, how we are unconsciously by our devices?
Dr. Jessica Higgins: It’s so funny… I was gonna ask you, because I know a lot of people use their phone for an alarm, or even have a sleep app, or something… And it sounds like your recommendation is to have a different type of an alarm.
Dr. Lori Whatley: A good old alarm clock. I know that sounds crazy, but I have seen it be just a wonderful thing in many relationships, I really have. Because not always both people are that interested in their phones… So it’s like bringing another person into the relationship; you wouldn’t do that… [unintelligible 00:21:45.28] another phone which is attached to billions of people, and distractions, is really the same — not the same, but in a sense, as far as the distraction model.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I wanna go back and then I have another question I wanna ask… So when you talked about the boundary with one person being more private and the other one being a little more open, what is an example of a boundary or a clear agreement around that?
Dr. Lori Whatley: One is the social media thing. That has really been a big thing that comes up in my sessions with my clients. I usually have them address it, like “What is your comfort level?” and most often it’s nothing — I don’t want any pictures of me, I don’t want pictures of our children, I don’t want anything about what we’re doing or when we’re doing it together; when we’re out on a date together, I don’t want any of that chronicled on social media. And so that’s a boundary that has been really important.
I had one couple — this was really interesting, because they had some trust issues in their relationship, and of course, we all know that a lot of people reconnect on social media with old boyfriends/girlfriends; that does happen. And I have a couple that I was working with that had some trust issues, and this woman said “I don’t want you to have your own social media account. I would like for us to be on one together.” And of course, he was working on building trust, so he was happy to do that. So that was a boundary that I thought was interesting… And they came up with that, they brought that up and came up with it themselves.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Do you find that the person that likes to be a little more open is comfortable with the boundary that their private partner is asking for?
Dr. Lori Whatley: Sometimes it happens kicking and screaming. Now, we can become addicted… I always tell them, your reaction to some of this is gonna be directly related to how attached you are. I always challenge people — I did this to myself; I left my phone at home and went to the grocery store… I was only gone 45 minutes and I thought I was gonna die. I did. I felt naked. I felt like “I feel this buzzing” and there was no buzzing in my pocket; I didn’t even have the phone. You know, the phantom vibrations you get when you don’t have it in your hand… I was feeling it all, and I said “Oh my gosh, I’m addicted to my phone.” So I knew that I needed to leave it behind more often.
Now I feel so liberated, because when I run errands, I do not take my phone. And I’ll be gone two hours, three hours… It feels so good. It’s just so nice, to go into the coffee shop – well, we can’t really do this anymore because of Covid, but you know, when we could… And stand there, and actually, instead of looking down, thumbing through my phone, talking to someone, making eye contact. “Hey, how are you doing? How’s your day going? I love that sweater you have on.” Noticing the sweater someone has on. It’s a neat experience, it feels really good.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, you’re going back to the basics of human connection, like you’re saying – the eye contact, the non-verbal, the being present and aware and available for interaction; human interaction. I love that. Is there anything else you wanna say about addiction or how somebody might be able to recognize that and what to do about it before we move to the next topic?
Dr. Lori Whatley: Thank you for asking about that, because that is something that comes up a lot, more and more. I had parents who bring their kids in… I’ve worked on an article with The Wall Street Journal on gaming; I contributed to it. And these kids are going to college and their parents don’t realize how they were staying up all night gaming before they went… And they go off to college, they have problems, they don’t pass — you know, because they become addicted to the things that are on these devices. There are so many dark places that can be gateways to even bigger addiction… And I think we do have to start talking about that, and I think we do have to be aware of it. It’s not pleasant to talk about, but I think that knowledge is power for parents, and for individuals, to understand how this all works, and how we become so attached and cannot pull away.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Do you have resources that you’d like to point people to, who might be questioning if they’re having some addiction issues with their devices? Or gaming…
Dr. Lori Whatley: I have two assessments on my website, DrLoriWhatley.com. They’re free. One is for the workplace, because I work with a lot of small businesses, because 92 billion dollars a year are lost in this country in the workplace, from people being on their digital devices and not really working on them… So time. 92 billion dollars in time, employee time. So that’s one thing I do.
There’s also an individual assessment, and it’s interesting that you asked about that, because they’re free; you can just take them, and then some people send me notes and say “Hey, what do you think about this?” or “Can we talk about this?” That assessment – I’ve had so many people taking it lately. It’s really been interesting.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice… And then it sounds like you have some guidance around if they are above the norm, or perhaps are entering into that addiction behavior… Is that something you help people with?
Dr. Lori Whatley: Absolutely, I do. I work with them. It depends on what the addiction is. If they become addicted to maybe porn, or gaming… It depends. Usually, I work with them some, and then we decide what is the best path; if they need more, if they need to be in-house, and have round-the-clock care for a while, there are different places that I might recommend for them for that, that have been very helpful for many people. I’ve had the joy of seeing many people be really [unintelligible 00:28:00.17] unhealthy connection.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Gotcha. Great. Well, thank you; I’ll make sure to have that on today’s show notes as well. I wanted to ask a little, since you mentioned it, and I was actually thinking about it already, of just the trust factor, and when there has been potential breaches of trust, or betrayal, or even someone who feels a little more jealous, or paranoid, or suspicious – that phone is such a threat, or can be even something that I’ve heard people say “I’m not proud of it, but I went on his/her phone…”
Dr. Lori Whatley: Yeah, absolutely. You know, that’s such a hard, hard thing, without knowing the individual and their backgrounds, and talking with them and being in conversation with them. It’s really hard to just make a blanket statement about couples… But I know that when there has been a breach of trust in a relationship – and these can be very tempting; you might say “Oh, I’ve been in this relationship for 20 years, and I just ran into online my high school girlfriend… And we were just talking; we’ve just been talking for six months. It’s no big deal.” But I always say, “Hey, is that something you would do with your partner knowing about it?” And some people are like “Yeah. My partner does know.” And that’s fine, that’s not a problem. It’s when we start having a lot of secrets, that obviously the secrets invade the intimacy and the relationship. So that becomes a problem.
If someone is — maybe they have had a breach of trust, and they’re trying to rebuild it, then they have to be really careful with their phone use. I have couples who — let’s say the woman has maybe had an affair; if she comes in and he says “Every night I have decided that I just put my phone on the counter, and I don’t have passwords on it (or my partner knows my passwords), and I just put it out there. Not because they asked, but because I just wanna be really transparent, so that they realize that I am really working hard to rebuild trust.”
I think it’s an individual thing, what works for each couple, and having that conversation with them and helping them decide what builds intimacy in this relationship, and trust.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And do you have anything that you would say to couples that perhaps don’t have real trust or betrayal issues, however are watching their significant other on their device, and perhaps are curious about what they’re doing, but also wanting to be respectful of their privacy, or what you help couples how they navigate that.
Dr. Lori Whatley: Well, I think conversation is always a wonderful way to connect with our partner… So asking your partner — if you have a question, you should be able to talk to this life partner that you have, like “Hey, this is what I’m feeling inside. I just wanna share it with you. I’m feeling a little dismissed right now. I’m not sure what you’re doing on there. I’ve read a lot of articles about different things, or listened to wonderful podcasts [unintelligible 00:31:23.22] and I just am wondering what do you on your phone, or on your laptop.” Having this conversation is a really good thing. Obstacles can build relationships.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Agreed. I know when I had released that podcast years ago my husband sometimes would — and I think he still does… If the phone is there, we’ll call technoference on each other, almost like a referee whistle, like “Technoference!”
Dr. Lori Whatley: I love it.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: It’s funny… But then there are times when I’m on my phone and I can tell it’s one of those in-between spaces, where we don’t actually have something we’re doing officially together, but I’m not really working, or I’m not really doing something individually, so I might just offer up “Oh, I’m texting my mother” or “Oh, I’m checking this thing…” Or there’s times where he’s doing something, and he’ll share – or I’ve even asked, “Who are you texting?” And it’s not — I have to manage… I mean, if it’s something I feel insecure about, then I would say that I felt insecure… But sometimes I’m just curious. So I think you’re right, that the communication is really helpful.
Dr. Lori Whatley: Right, right. And you know, this could really kind of be a conversation starter. And this could be a tool — our digital devices could be tools to help us gauge where we are in our communication.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Totally. Wonderful. Well, are there any other tips that you would like to share before we transition?
Dr. Lori Whatley: Well, I think you said something really interesting about technoference… And I love that term, by the way. I’m gonna have to borrow that. I think it’s just really important to wonder what you’re missing when you’re on your phone. Many of us have that FOMO when we’re not on our phone, but I think we need to be wondering in reverse, “What am I missing when I am on my digital device, in the presence of my loved ones?” Even when I’m by myself, am I missing an in-person, real-life experience, because I’m watching other people live online?” And they’re so substitute for those in-person interactions. So really thinking through that I think is essential in our relationships.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right, I love that… Because you had mentioned the practice of mindfulness, and the awareness around “What is it that I’m really seeking?” and “Is this really offering me that value or that need?” and just being conscious about it.
Dr. Lori Whatley: Absolutely.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Wonderful. Well, how do people get in touch with what you’re up to? It sounds like you have a website with quizzes…
Dr. Lori Whatley: I do. I have a website, and you can email me directly from that website. Also, I’m on Facebook and Instagram. DrLoriWhatley.com is my website, and there’s a lot of information about what we’ve talked about today on air… And I also have my book, Connected and Engaged, and it’s available on Amazon… You can even buy it straight through my website, so I would love for you to order it and read, and learn even more. I get to go in detail about life in general, and our connection space.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Wonderful. I look forward to putting all of that on today’s show notes, and thank you so much for being a guest today.
Dr. Lori Whatley: Thank you for having me. I’ve certainly enjoyed my visit.
I hope you have enjoyed today’s interview. Again, if you would like access to today’s show notes, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast, and there you can find today’s episode, 241, “How to prevent your smartphone from hurting your relationship”, an interview with Dr. Lori Whatley.
Until next time, I hope you take great care.
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