Dr. Jessica Higgins: Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 244, “How Being A Child Of Divorced Parents Impacts Relationship, Health, and Adulthood, An Interview With Angela Cusimano.” Before we get started, I want to take a moment and just ground with you. Taking a deep breath in, and a deep breath out. Just in our busy, busy lives just knowing that we’re sharing in the goal of improving our relationship together. And as we discuss on the Empowered Relationship podcast, the conversations that happen here are really intended for you to feel better equipped, supported, more prepared in navigating the terrain of long-lasting intimacy, knowing there will be ups and there will be downs. And really, if we have a greater perspective on relationships, it will help us weather those storms, the lows.
If you would like access to today’s show notes, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast in the top navigation bar, and there you’ll find all of the episodes. Again, today’s episode is 244. On today’s show notes, you’ll also find a free gift, Shifting Criticism Into Connected Communication. And this guide gives you a side by side comparison of a critical tendency language, as well as more constructive language that cultivates more connection and understanding, and really getting a request addressed. This is relevant in today’s conversation, as we’re going to be discussing some of the tendencies in relationship are familiar to us. And oftentimes, when we grow up in an environment that’s more intellectual, or perhaps isn’t as warm emotionally, and even perhaps one parent or both parents are critical, highly critical, it’s very common for someone to learn that strategy, of approaching people with criticism and complaint.
So again, if you’re interested in checking that out please access the free guide, Shifting Criticism Into Connected Communication, and there you’ll get that free guide; you’ll also be opting in to an email series that will give a lot more information, as well as giving you an opportunity to engage in a course that will help you do a deeper dive in looking at criticism, how to change it, and really shift that dynamic in your relationship… Because it is one of the destructive patterns and relationships that really cause relationship disconnect, and unfortunately breakup and divorce.
Let’s get started in today’s interview. Angela Cusimano is a psychologist and personal coach with decades of experience working with kids, families, and trauma survivors. As a way to connect with more people outside of the therapy room, she has started a coaching program for childhood divorce survivors who struggle with self-love, self-sabotage, and difficulties in their partnerships. She has published two books, one for families going through the divorce process and a book for parents who want to safely raise their teens in the digital age. Angela, thank you for joining us today.
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Thank you for having me.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, and I love that you support this topic. It’s such an important issue, in that divorce is so common. And I’ve had many clients who perhaps are reaching out in the transition into divorce, and have children, and are questioning the impact of that… So today’s topic around childhood divorce in the impact on relationship and even just one’s well being – how did you start looking at this topic and what got you interested?
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Well, I am a childhood divorce survivor myself, and it was actually my parent’s divorce that kind of impacted me so greatly. My mom got us into therapy as the divorce was happening, and afterwards she took us to a child psychologist, and I was like “What a cool job. If I could do this for the rest of my life, I think that would be really cool.” So at nine years old, I decided that I wanted to be a child psychologist. So I pursued that, and got my PhD in psychology, and then I’ve been realizing over time, while I love doing the work in the therapy room, the reach that I get to a broader population is kind of limited, and I still kind of have a passion for working with, specifically, individuals who have experienced divorce in their childhood and might be struggling with adult relationships or other issues in their life, likely connected to their parent’s divorce early on.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Got you. So you work more with people who are adults that their parents divorced when they were a child?
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Yes.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Okay. And just to clarify for people that are listening, do you have a general stance on what divorce does to children, or the impact?
Dr. Angela Cusimano: I was trained kind of as a developmental psychologist, so I tend to think more in developmental terms. But I do really think like at the time of divorce the children’s development somewhat comes to kind of a screeching halt, as I like to call it… Because one parent is leaving the house, there might be some conflict or other things going on… As we know, the divorce process isn’t always the most calm and collected time in a family’s life. So I feel like the focus almost shifts from the child, and their development, and what’s good for them, and it switches over to this very adult issue, right? And kids are really having to kind of open their eyes to adult problems at a very young age, and kind of get a snapshot of reality, like, “Hey, you know, mom and dad are together one minute, and then they’re not, and I now have two homes, I might even have a step-parent that comes into the picture…” And then I also think in terms of attachment – we develop an attachment to our parents growing up, and I think depending on what happens during and after the divorce, that can have an impact on our attachment to one or both parents… And then you and I both know that there’s kind of a research connection between child attachment and our attachment style with our romantic partners in adulthood. There’s at least some kind of carryover there, you know, at least some kind of connection.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Absolutely.
Dr. Angela Cusimano: So I think in kind of a summary kind of way, in childhood it has an impact, and I believe it continues to have an impact as a person develops and starts to form their own relationships.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And for someone listening, or perhaps in your own experience, or when you work with clients, what are some of the signposts, if you will, or indicators that they’re experiencing childhood divorce impacts them, and how would you help people recognize that?
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Sure. I mean, I’ve kind of seen it as this is either the person that has maybe a pattern or a history of being in not so healthy relationships, or not successful relationships, and they’re kind of in adulthood wondering, like, “Okay, what is going on here? And what do I need to do differently?” And, maybe not even making the connection to “Hey, my parents divorced when I was young, and maybe I missed out on the opportunity to know what a healthy relationship is.” So I think that the first step is making that connection if it hasn’t been made before.
And then I think some of the other patterns that show up in people that I’ve seen and work with are kind of a form of self-sabotage, kind of repeating history a little bit, just because this is the pattern of relationships that we’re used to, our pattern of living life that we’re used to… And so we keep kind of doing the same thing and hoping for a different result. And then I also think, in some ways, relationship sabotage… So maybe in some ways reenacting the conflict or chaos in their own relationships. Because again, that was what was kind of displayed to them at a young age, so they may believe that that’s normal and that’s how relationships work.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, because it’s what we’re familiar with, right? If we’d known this upset or haven’t been experiencing, either through modeling or being a part of the family system that healthy relating. So can you give us some examples of what you’re referring to, so people can get a little better sense of relationship sabotage, self-sabotage, and even adult relationships that perhaps would be impacted from that early childhood divorce?
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Sure. I think in the area of self-sabotage, a lot of times this can show up as maybe somebody who works a lot, is kind of a workaholic of sorts or pursues an endeavor that kind of puts them in a position to avoid relationships, and again, not really get that kind of real-world experience with relationships and conflict… So this might be a person that pours themselves into multiple degrees, or a lot of school, or multiple jobs as a means to kind of keep themselves busy… And then they kind of at the end of the day wonder “Why am I still alone? And why am I not meeting someone?” And they’re really, maybe not even intentionally, putting themselves in a position where they’re not really available to other people, right?
So in a way, there’s this biological need to connect with another human being, but the way that they’ve set up their life really doesn’t allow for that to happen. So they kind of almost get in their own way. Again, maybe not even intentionally or knowingly, because they might perceive that “Putting myself out there or putting myself in relationships might be dangerous, it might come out not that great, like it did for my parents.” So that’s kind of one example that I think of with regards to self-sabotage.
And then I think as far as sabotaging relationships, again, maybe not even intentionally, but if you grow up not necessarily knowing what a healthy relationship is and whether your partner is emotionally available or emotionally unavailable, I think if we’re used to a history of emotionally unavailable partners, for example, when an emotionally available partner shows up, we may not even be able to recognize that, or that may feel so unfamiliar and uncomfortable that we’re actually, again, sabotaging the relationship, getting in the way of that being an actual relationship. Because, again, we’re used to this negative pattern, that again, we consider familiar and normal, right? I mean, we all grew up with this idea of normal, regardless of what happens, whether it’s divorce or otherwise. So we bring that into our adult life.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And when you’re helping people perhaps start to make the… Well, let me ask, how do you help people start to identify that perhaps some of these early experiences with experiencing childhood divorce, and how that inform their association or belief for experience around intimacy and relationship?
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Sure, yeah. I think the initial part of what I try to do with everyone is really just kind of assess whether or not that insight and that connection is there. And if not, I think that making that connection or making some connection is important. Because otherwise, what’s the reason to do anything different, right? If I don’t realize that how things are playing out in my adult life are connected to my parents getting divorced when I was younger, why would I be motivated to change anything? So I think the first step is really, again, just making that connection between the present and the past. And then I like to kind of get people to explore their relationship history and start to kind of recognize the patterns. How long were you with partners? What was that partner like? What were some of the qualities that they exhibited? And things like that. And what were the good and bad things about that relationship?
So they can start to kind of learn, like “Okay, this is my story and this is kind of how things have played out.” And then we kind of shift focus to the future. Okay, how do you want things to be different? And how do we help you get there? What are the things that you’re attracted to, that might not necessarily be good or healthy for you? And how can we kind of, again, build awareness into that and maybe have you open up your focus to be attracted to more than just these things that, again, have not played out very well in your relationship history? And then I think another piece of it is really just helping people see that they are lovable and capable of a good relationship, even though they may not have had a good example of what that looked like growing up. I think just building a sense of confidence and hope for the future is really important.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: So it sounds like you have some assessment that you do, and it sounds like it might be related to just their relationship health, if you will. Is that right?
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Yes.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I think you were speaking to earlier, and then also helping them perhaps unpack their history and really looking at the different aspects of that and what that might relate, and how it all connects… And then also perhaps just because they’ve had a certain experience doesn’t mean that has to dictate their future; that there is more possibility for them.
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Yup, absolutely.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I just want to back up for a moment… What about the people that are listening that identify with having had parents that got a divorce, but perhaps they don’t maybe recognize an impact? Is there anything that you do to just invite exploration, even if somebody is not necessarily seeing a lot of indicators that there’s any difficulty?
Dr. Angela Cusimano: You know, I think at that point, if — and again, there are these exceptions where divorce is amicable, and it goes well, and it doesn’t necessarily have an impact on kids, right? I mean, we all know those stories of the good endings, that the parents are really focused on what’s best for the kid, and maybe there were no scars left psychologically as a result of that divorce. Then I think it’s more — I kind of take more of an educational stance in that okay, these are the things that we know to be connected as far as our attachment to other people, just parents originally, and then other people in general (friends, family members, things like that), helping them define and identify what does a healthy relationship look like, and kind of check their definition with, again, the general qualities that we know to be healthy.
And then things like happiness and what does that look like? I mean, that’s kind of been a hot topic, I think for over a decade now… You know, this idea of happiness and that everybody else is happy but you, right? Or there are certain things that need to happen in order for happiness to be obtained. And really, if we don’t believe that happiness is attainable, then we’re not going to be seeking that for ourselves on an individual level, nor are we going to be seeking that in our relationships. We’re just going to kind of maybe settle for the status quo, or whatever is available to us.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: So it kind of sounds like, Angela, you’re speaking about divorce is a huge impact usually, and that it disrupts the system, and that there’s a lot happening that takes the attention away from the child, and their stability, and their development, the focus being on their health and well being… And it sounds like yes, it’s the event of the divorce, but it’s also how that’s handled that has a big influence.
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Definitely. Yeah. I mean, the divorce is really just papers being signed and parents going separate ways. But there are so many things that happen before that process, and then after. And I think the aftermath can be years and decades, right? I mean, depending on the conflict between parents or one or both parents getting remarried, having new siblings come into the picture… I think it’s like a constantly evolving process for a lot of people.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And I wonder – I don’t even know if this is a fair question, but there are instances where… I was just meeting with a couple yesterday, and her parents are still together, but her dad was an alcoholic, and her mother crafted a lot of stories to make it okay, and there is a tremendous amount of conflict between them… And what we were working on is that she’s got some real anxiety around conflict, and that has always been scary for her. And she didn’t have the awareness that those early experiences informed her nervous system when she and her husband would get into conflict… Where for him, he’s like, “This is good. I want to talk about things, and we can resolve them and continue to up-level and work together”, and she just was freaking out. And so it was a new idea that perhaps some of those early imprints and those experiences had an influence, but she didn’t necessarily experience divorce. So I’m curious, would you make a statement or a claim that divorce is bad? Or if there’s a couple listening to this, or an individual listening to this that’s contemplating divorce, I wonder what you would say to that. I know it’s a loaded question, but…
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Yeah, no. I think over time, this concept of divorce, and the parental conflict, as they call it in the research… Over the last few decades, the researchers out there that study these two things happening actually have, for the most part, come to the conclusion that it’s the conflict between parents that is actually more psychologically damaging than the divorce itself. So if you think about kind of a pressure cooker type situation, right? If there’s constant conflict, or again, issues like the member of the couple that you mentioned, right? If there are things kind of being swept under the rug, and tension, and just some other uncomfortable things happening in the dynamic, including overt conflict, yelling, screaming, even some abusive situations, that alerts a child’s fight or flight system. That puts the child on alert, and actually, in some cases, makes them fearful for their own safety and well-being. And so the divorce is the thing that can actually end all of that, right? Mom and Dad are finally not fighting. And so in many ways, I think historically we’re saying “Oh, divorce is bad.” Right? “Divorce is bad, and people were staying together for the kids”, right? But if it’s a high conflict marriage, that’s actually more dangerous, it has a more long term impact on a child or children than the divorce itself.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: So it sounds like divorce and experiencing that in childhood is a really significant event, and it likely has some disrupt around it. So it’s easy to be able to kind of speak to that and then help people explore their experience. And likely there was some again, attention, or stability, or abandonment, or something taken away from their health and well being. But it’s not necessarily the divorce in and of itself.
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Right. Yeah, it’s actually a lot of what happens before, and if there’s a lot of conflicts, it’s kind of a relief for kids for the divorce to happen. And then conflict – we know that conflict doesn’t stop when the ink on the divorce papers is dry. We know that we’ve seen in movies and heard stories from friends and family, right? That the conflict may continue after that, and it’s really… If this is an adult issue, and there’s no possible conflict resolution learning opportunity that the kids can benefit from witnessing, then keep adult conversations between adults, right? I mean, there’s no reason to throw the kids in the middle. And then, unfortunately, I think we’ve all heard of situations where the kids get pitted against one parent or the other, and common sense would tell us that that’s probably not a good idea, not in your child’s best interest. But again, desperate times call for desperate measures, and I think parents when they’re going through this process of heartbreak, and this partner that they thought they were going to be with forever has decided to not be with them anymore – you know, hurt people hurt people, right? And they might do things that they later regret. They really were just acting purely on emotion or hurt, versus logically thinking about the situation.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I know, I have a friend who has done a lot in the parental alienation field, and just the harm and the difficulty that can come… And like you said, when we understand perhaps the parent that’s engaging in some of this talking poorly about the other parent, we can have compassion and understanding that they’re really hurting… But again, without the awareness, sometimes we do things that are hurtful because we’re hurting. And so when you’re speaking about healthy, is there anything you want to describe around that? Because you’re coming from a particular vantage point, and I don’t know if there’s anything you want to speak to there?
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Sure. Yeah. I mean, I always put air quotes around the word healthy. Maybe that’s just my training as a psychologist. I think the realm of what we experience as a psychologist, and everything that fits in those air quotes vary from day to day, right? And so I hate to put people in a box or pigeonhole things, but I think that for the most part we can agree that a healthy relationship is one where we feel loved and appreciated, right? And we’re not being abused emotionally, physically, otherwise. And that there is, I think, essentially, just — it sounds like you do couples work, and I do too, but the foundations are trust and communication, right? And that you feel like you can trust your partner and they feel like they can trust you, and that when conflict, which is inevitable, comes up, that you’re able to kind of talk through that.
I think some of us were raised with this idea, and I think society somewhat reinforces this, that happy couples don’t fight. And I would actually argue against that. I think unhappy couples don’t fight, right? Because that means if you’re not fighting — not necessarily physically fighting, but if you’re not having conflict, and if you’re not having miscommunications, maybe that means that you’re not emotionally invested in your relationship enough to fight back, right? Maybe you’re just okay with the way things are and you don’t really want to rock the boat too much. And if you speak up or if you have a differing opinion, you’re just not even invested enough to argue that you might think or feel differently.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Exactly. I love that, I couldn’t agree with you more; thank you for speaking to it. I know it’s broad, general, but I think it is helpful to just have the reminder, the iteration of just feeling loved, and the trust, and feeling prioritized, and the safety, and the communication, and being able to navigate differences, right? That might feel conflictual, but that’s inevitable when you have two different people with two different backgrounds, and perspectives, and personalities. So yes, I love that. And then when you’re speaking about happiness, it sounds like you have some ideas around positive psychology and looking at what contributes to happiness… But how do you see this as it shows up in relationship? …as far as myths and truths about happiness.
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Sure, yeah. I think social media, technology, the internet doesn’t really do us any favors in this department, because I think we may see Instagram or Facebook pictures of, “Oh, wow. It’s the best day of their life. They’re the happiest ever.” And the thing that social media does not show us is just kind of the average day that we have as normal people. And so I think in some ways this idea that “everybody else is happy, but I’m not,” has almost been somewhat reinforced by social media. And that, again, we only see maybe one side of the story at best, and likely not the reality of the story.
I think the other thing that — how this can show up is “I will be happy when I find the right partner.” Putting happiness in the future, like it’s something to be earned, or it’s something that you get after you have the right partner, versus just being kind of happy on your own and knowing that that happiness is going to be the thing that attracts that partner to you, and more likely to attract an also happy and mostly healthy partner.
I think the other things is — and again, this might be just an American value, but it’s like, happiness is earned, right? And not necessarily. You’re allowed to be happy while still working hard, while still maybe being poor, while maybe still paying off student loans. It’s okay, these things are not mutually exclusive. And then I think when it comes to relationships in particular, again, the reality that happy couples do fight, happy couples disagree, happy couples are not always going to be madly in love with each other every day… I say to my partner, sometimes, “I love you, but I don’t really like you right now.” And that’s okay. You might be married to or with your best friend, but you might still disagree with your best friend, outside of your relationship. Again, this is the merging of two worlds, and it’s not going to always be this meticulous, pretty process of merging those two realities.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Sounds like a little bit of a double-edged sword, because it sounds like you’re inviting people to question expectations around happiness, and what they’re picking up from media, social media about what should be… And also recognizing when we just kind of unconsciously go through what we’ve already always known, right? Then we’re willing to settle or compromise with the pain that we’ve known and just kind of live that out, too. So it’s like, I guess it’s complicated a little bit.
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Definitely. Yeah. I mean, I think the positive psychology researchers would probably argue the same thing, right? There’s a lot of myths out there about what happiness looks like, and I think the reality is that social media, the movies, TV, portray this very skewed view of what happiness looks like. And I think for the average person, it doesn’t always look like that, right? I mean, we’re not always going to be Instagram-ready, in our day to day life. And that’s okay. If you’re happy with who you are, and what your life looks like, that’s really all that matters. And if you’re single, then being happy on your own, again, will attract the right person… And if you feel like I am happy with who my partner is, and I’m happy about who I am with my partner, then I feel like it can be as simple as that.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. And I think a lot of times what I see too is that the expectation of my partner should make me happy, right? And there’s the issue if they’re not making me happy, rather than how am I contributing to this. And, again, the expectation…
I think the double-edged sword that I’m wondering about too is the expectation around what we should feel as far as what the expectation of happiness is, and maybe even some inadequacy around that, around how we’re judging or comparing. But then there’s the tolerating unhappiness or even dysfunction, because we’re familiar with it. So it’s like you were saying earlier, being awakened to “Okay, so this is part of what I lived, and what I’ve known… But that doesn’t have to be what I cultivate. I don’t have to repeat that.” So how do you help people find that? Because it’s like not looking outside yourself to be what social media or society tells us, but then also finding possibility around what could be a healthier version? And to believe in that possibility, it can be confusing.
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Right, yeah. And I think a lot of people have not even imagined themselves in happy, healthy relationships, right? I mean, again, they may have just had this relationship history that they think “Okay, this is as good as it gets, and I just need to be okay with this.” And I think this is where, I guess, my work as a psychologist tends to come in. It’s like “Can you visualize this happening for yourself? Can you imagine yourself in a happy and healthy relationship? What does that look like?” And again, adjusting that for maybe some unrealistic expectations, and some of the Cinderella stories that we were raised with as women, and equally as men, right? And I think also, focusing on people’s strengths as kind of a motivator – what’s gotten to you to this point, and how do you think you’ve persevered through these difficult relationships? That says something about you… And if you were to meet the ideal partner tomorrow, what do you have to offer them? And what are you looking for in that ideal partner? And again, expectation management in the sense that, “Okay, this is kind of, in general, what we can expect.” And seeing themselves as really having a lot of things to offer, especially in the case where there’s not been a lot of healthy relationships, and not a lot of feedback that this person does to have those things.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I know… I have a client that did not have a positive reflection coming at him. And his parents were still together when his mom passed away a few years ago, but I think his dad might have had some spectrum, maybe some autistic features or something, but didn’t really have a lot of emotional capacity to meet him, and his mom — you know, he would say, kind of that British, more contained, not expressive, and so he didn’t get a lot of emotional attunement… And so he was bullied in school, because he was just super smart, and just felt like the classic Ugly Duckling story. So one of the things that I actually asked him to do was have the people in his life, his closest friends, if they were open to it, offer some positive impact, or positive reflections around what he does offer, or what he could offer in relationship, and just to kind of take a list and take inventory around what he brings, and really to hold value for that.
I think this is a difficult thing to straddle for some people, around — and like you’re saying, believing in what they have to offer, and their worth and valuing that, but also how they can be received, and how they can be in a relationship where they do feel loved, like that is possible. What kind of things do you do, or what tips or tools might you offer for people listening that perhaps are trying to bridge this gap?
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Yeah. I think we often see ourselves very differently than how others see us. I think a number of us have gotten that feedback, maybe from the people in our lives. Like, “I experience you as this” and you know, it’s surprising that you see yourself as this. So I think sometimes just having that that interpersonal dialogue, focusing on the qualities that you observe in them, and kind of reflecting that back to people, “Do you see yourself as this way? Or do you experience yourself as this way?” And I think, again, strengths-focused, right? What are your positive qualities, right? What are the things that you struggle with? And we all have both, right? It’s acknowledging, again, that there are two sides to the story. And when you go into a relationship, or when you go into the real world, both of those sides, it’s okay to have both of those sides, right? It’s okay to have things that you’re really good at, and are your positives, and then it’s okay to not be good at everything, and also have some things that you struggle with. We only see the positive side to a lot of people, based on just the access that we have to people’s lives these days.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: And you said something really notable earlier about the idea of having to earn happiness or earn lovability… And so just even the recognition of feeling loved and honored for just being.
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Yeah, I think conditional love, right? …I think that all parents are guilty of that, right? Well, if you clean your room then you’re a good girl or boy, if you do your chores, then you’re this, right? We are in some ways raised — and even as adults, if you do a good job, you’ll get the bonus, right? So a lot of our self-worth and how we see ourselves is connected to some kind of result, and a lot less of what we’re taught is “You’re okay as you are. It’s okay to be as you are, and that you don’t need to earn happiness. You don’t need to earn love. These are things that everybody is entitled to and has a right to.”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. And as you’re working with your clients, you talk a little bit about breaking up with the relational patterns influenced by their parents, and I’m curious, is there anything you do to really mark a transitional, like “I am not my parents”, or somehow differentiating between what they were taught and kind of really crafting something new for themselves? Or how do you do that?
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Yeah, that’s why I like to focus on the past but also the future, right? I mean, we can look back to see where we’ve been, and what’s really worked, and what’s not worked… And then there’s kind of a line in the sand, and then we’re also looking towards the future, right? Is it okay to leave these things where they were, knowing that you learned them from a very valid source, and no one can fault you for just carrying on what you have observed and learned. But now, as an adult, you’re kind of looking to the future and saying, “This is not necessarily the legacy that I want to live. These are not the things that I want to bring into my future, and I’m okay with leaving these things in the past. That will always be part of my story. My parent’s divorce will always be a part of my life”, we’re not forgetting that, but at the same time, it doesn’t have to define who you are as a person and what your relationships look like forever.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I know, right? It’s like the evaluation of like, “Whose voice is this? Where did this come from? Is this really what I want? Is this true for me still?” And that real discernment. So I’m curious, in closing, I guess I want to give people a chance to hear how they can get in touch with you… But before we do that, is there anything you want to say about your transformation? You said that you had the experience of your parents divorcing and through your work both professionally and personally, kind of what you’ve been able to cultivate. And I know for me, I’ll just say it’s an ever-evolving process; I do my best to practice these principles, but as you said, it’s a practice, it’s forever evolving development. But is there anything you want to share?
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Yeah. I’m always very forthcoming with whether they be my psychology clients or my coaching clients, but I’m just as human as you are, right? Just because I have the Ph.D. behind my name, it doesn’t make me immune to these life experiences, and things like that. And I guess I’m fortunate in that my mom, like I’ve mentioned, introduced me to the world of psychology and the power of therapy early on in my life, and I do think and I’m openly honest with the fact that I’ve used therapy as a resource in my life many times, right? …whether it be dealing with just the normal stress of life, or dealing with relationship issues. And I’m super thankful to the therapists that I’ve worked with over the course of my life, because again, they have helped me make the connections between the past and the present, and then again, helping me look towards the future and really formulating, “Okay, what does that look like?”
Just because I am a childhood divorce survivor, it doesn’t mean that I’m going to perpetuate this behavior. And so super-thankful also for my just graduate education, right? I kind of got a behind the scenes working knowledge of attachment and development and the things that were required to become trained as a psychologist. And so, yes, I have a lot of knowledge behind what I do… But you know, I also have life experience, and relationships are hard. And anyone who says that they’re not, I kind of question that, right? Whether it’s a romantic relationship or otherwise,
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Right.
Dr. Angela Cusimano: They can be difficult waters to navigate. And so I would just say “Trust the process. If you need the help of a therapist or a coach, don’t hesitate to reach out. This is what we’re here for, and we want to help you get to that place that you strive to be”
Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that. Thank you, Angela. How do people get in touch with what you’re doing and what you have to offer?
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Sure. Well, I have a website called changethetidecoaching.com. So the name of my coaching practice is Change The Tide. And then I’m also on social media, which I know I bashed early on, but I am on social media. I have an Instagram and Facebook, Change The Tide Coaching, on both of those platforms. I think I also have a Pinterest page too, for those Pinterest-ers out there, where I offer a lot of the topics, information, and education on the topics that we covered today.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice. And so you offer coaching and therapy?
Dr. Angela Cusimano: I do. So I have my private practice. I mainly work with kids, couples, and families, and then I have my coaching practice, again, devoted to specifically adults who had experienced divorce as a child and are struggling with some of the things that we’ve talked about already.
And then I also have a podcast as well. It’s the Childhood Divorce Survivors podcast, and it’s relatively new. I’m kind of getting my podcast feet wet in that world, but talk briefly about some of the topics, kind of the hot topics, and the concerns and issues that can come up for childhood divorce survivors.
Dr. Jessica Higgins: Such a wealth of knowledge, it sounds like, on that website, and on Instagram. And look, I do believe that it’s how we use things, right? Like, electricity can be used to light a room and it can also be used to electrocute somebody, right? So I do think there’s a level of how we’re using social media, and it is a great tool for reaching and just how we use it, and both as a consumer and both as offering content. And then your practice and what you’re offering and helping people heal, and through your counseling and therapy as well as the coaching.
Awesome. Great. Well, thank you for spending time with us and sharing your valuable time, and this super important conversation.
Dr. Angela Cusimano: Thank you for having me.
I hope you have enjoyed today’s interview, again, with Angela Cusimano. Today’s interview, 244, “How Being A Child Of Divorced Parents Impacts Relationship, Health, and Adulthood” can be found at DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast and there you can find this episode, the show notes, and all of the links mentioned. Thank you for listening, and until next time, I hope you take great care.
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