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Hi, thank you for joining the Empowered Relationship podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Jessica Higgins, licensed psychologist and relationship coach. Today’s episode is 258, “How to create powerfully positive connections”, an interview with Dan Solin.

Before we get started, I wanna take a moment and center with you, perhaps taking a pause in our  very busy schedules. So many of us have so many responsibilities, so many things to be thinking about and doing in any given day. As we take a moment and consider relationship, just inviting you to take a deep breath in, and a deep breath out… And perhaps releasing tension with the outbreath, releasing stress. And as we inhale and deepen our breathing, gaining more awareness around our inner world; what we’re feeling in our body, what we’re feeling emotionally, and perhaps as we, again, talk about relationship, what’s going on for you, what’s alive for you, what’s up for you in relationship…

And perhaps as you’re taking a few more deep breaths, I wanna set the intention for the Empowered Relationship podcast… And that is to support you in the journey of long-term intimacy, helping you feel better equipped, more  prepared to weather the storms, to use what comes up, perhaps what feels difficult as curriculum for your development individually, as well for the development of your relationship… That it’s not so much looking at upset as something’s wrong with you, or something’s wrong with me, or potentially something’s wrong with us… But more of an invitation of “How can we work better together? How do we grow in our strength as a couple in dealing with difficulty?” So it’s more how we deal with the challenge, rather than there being a challenge that indicates something’s wrong.

Unfortunately, many of us have not known security in the way of feeling emotionally connected, safe and secure in relationship… Whether or not that’s in our upbringing, and what we felt in our family of origin, or perhaps in previous relationship… So we sometimes have difficulty accessing our vulnerability, or the deeper fear or hurt, or insecurity that often fuels our reactions, and sometimes we’re not even conscious of.

So many of the conversations and episodes on the Empowered Relationship podcast are helping you gain more awareness and understanding around what gets activated; also, what are the moves that you can make that contribute to creating more safety, more security in your bond with your significant other. And as we do this, we grow our capacity for more love, more happiness, more fulfillment, and really set our relationship up for success.

If you would like access to today’s show  notes, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com. You can click on Podcast there in the top navigation bar, and you’ll have access to all the episodes. Again, today’s episode is 258. There on the website you’ll also find a free guide, “Shifting criticism into connected communication.” This guide offers you a side-by-side comparison of what a critical tendency statement would be, and what a more constructive request would be, and really looking at that same situation. I gave you 20-something examples of a situation that might cause some upset, and what a critical tendency would be, and what a more constructive request would be, that really allows your partner to turn towards you, to respond and really be helpful, rather than get defensive against what feels perhaps like an attack or a criticism.

I’ve gotten feedback from people expressing how enlightening or mind-blowing this simple guide has been for them, and really looking at what’s at play when we’re using criticism, and what is an opportunity to really shift that into more connection… And again, you can find this guide on DrJessicaHiggins.com. You can find it on the homepage, you can also find it on today’s show notes; I’ll make sure that that link is in the mentioned section there at the bottom. Again, today’s episode is 258, “How to create powerfully positive connections”, an interview with Dan Solin.

Dan Solin is the author of the new book, Ask: How to Relate to Anyone.  He is a New York Times bestselling author of the Smartest series of investing books and The Smartest Sales Book You’ll Ever Read. Dan’s books have been widely praised by The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Library Journal, Vanguard co-founder John Bogle and many financial columnists, authors and others.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Dan, thank you for joining us today.

Dan Solin: Jessica, it’s a pleasure to be with you. I really appreciate you having me on.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, I’m excited about learning more principles and research-based principles that support people in navigating relationship. I know you address relationship in the larger terms, as it relates to business, and friends, and family, and I think that the relationship principles talked about on this show are specific to couplehood, intimate relationship, but also do translate across the board… But I know that it’s always a gift to get someone on the show that can share such a wealth of wisdom based on their exploration, research, and what they’re teaching… So thanks for being willing to explore some of this with us today.

Dan Solin: Sure, I’m looking forward to it.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: How did you get interested in exploring principles of how to relate to others?

Dan Solin: I think because I was so bad at it probably… [laughter] [unintelligible 00:07:49.02] So just to share a few things about myself… I’m an introvert, so social situations are awkward for me, always were. So I used to think about that, like “Why is that so difficult for me on a personal level?” On a business level, I had written a number of books; I was fortunate to have a couple of them on the New York Times best seller list… And I was an investment advisor after I was a lawyer… And I’ve found that my conversion rate wasn’t better than anybody else’s, even though I was much better known. I would get a lot of very warm calls, and people said “Oh, I’ve read your book. I loved that. I’d love to have you manage my money.” But when I went to meet with them, I would say my conversion rate was average. But it should have been much better than average.

So I put my personal issues, my business issues, and I just did what I’ve always done, which is “I think there’s something to be researched here; I wonder if there is a research-based way to be better at all relationships.” So I took a year off, and did all the research I could, and that turned into the book. But that was the impetus.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And I’m curious if you’re open to sharing any of those findings with us today.

Dan Solin: I could share all of them if you had a number of hours… But in the time we have, we’ll probably have to zero in on some of the more important ones. But whatever ones you’d like to talk about is fine.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, what strikes you if we’re talking about intimate relationship? Are there any that stand out to be more relevant?

Dan Solin: I think the fundamental one for intimate and other relationships, but it’s particularly applicable to intimate relationships, is understanding even in the context of people who know us really well how our words go into their brains, and what happens from a psychological and neuroscience principal, how we can impact their reaction; how we can reverse-engineer positive relationships when we have a basic understanding of psychology and neuroscience. That’s what fascinated me the most in my findings.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Hm… And would you be willing to break that down a little bit with us today?

Dan Solin: Sure. So I wonder if it’s your experience as well, Jessica – your business, being a psychologist and a coach, and my business, we both have what’s called asymmetric information, which is people pay us to get our advice. So it’s particularly a trap for us in our non-professional lives to believe that people are actually interested in what we have to say… And the fundamental finding in my research was that that is just not true. Empowering people to talk about themselves is so much more powerful than us talking about ourselves.

So when you’re in a relationship – and again, this applies broadly, but it’s particularly applicable to personal relationships – the more you empower the other person to talk about themselves, the healthier your relationship is going to be. That’s my fundamental finding based on a really great Harvard study from their psychology department.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And how does this fit with reverse-engineering?

Dan Solin: So… Say I met you for the first time at a cocktail party. You introduce yourself, I introduce myself… So I thought previous to doing this research that basically something spontaneous would happen; namely, I would do or say whatever I would do or say, you would do the same thing, and either we’d hit it off or we wouldn’t, or it would be a non-event. What I learned from the research is I can reverse-engineer a positive outcome to that encounter; or a negative outcome, if for some perverse reason I want a negative outcome… And I can do this following very basic neuroscience.

So on the one hand, I can talk about myself and about my books, and where I’m from, and you would probably be patient and kind in listening… And what would actually happen to you – the longer I talk, first your brain would become distracted, if not bored; or both. Second, cortisol, measured, as you know, in the saliva or the blood, which is the stress hormone, would start to elevate, and your brain would experience a hormonal response quite similar to what happens when you’re undergoing physical pain.

So I guess nobody would wanna do that intentionally, but that’s what we often do. Conversely, I could ask you a lot of questions – soft, genuine questions about yourself, and empower you to speak about yourself. “How did you become a psychologist? What’s behind that? What’s your day like? How did you start a podcast?” And then I could just add appropriate follow-up questions and just get you talking about yourself. And if I did that, hormonally what now happens in your brain is a combination of dopamine and oxytocin, both of which are happiness — not technically, as you know, but happiness hormones flood the prefrontal cortex of the brain.

Oxytocin is the bonding hormone. Mothers of newborn children have an excess of oxytocin in their prefrontal cortex. Dopamine is that good feeling that we experience when we accomplish a goal. The Harvard study I referenced focused on dopamine, but other studies I’ve looked at say that it may be a combination of the two… But I’ve found it fascinating that just by getting you to talk about yourself, I can create in your brain a happiness environment, so that you are going to feel not just good about yourself the more I get you to talk in a genuine and non-manipulative way, but you’re also gonna feel very good about me. That was the fundamental finding that kind of blew me away. That was my a-ha moment when I did the research.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And just on an aside, I’m wondering if your conversion rates increased after implementing some of these strategies.

Dan Solin: Great question. One of the things I like about research is it’s kind of metric-driven. I love when I can answer a question like that by saying “Well, let’s just look at the data, because the data doesn’t like”, assuming I’m not being selective. So your measure is a financial advisor by what’s called assets under management, which is simply how much money are you managing.

In the five years prior to doing this research, I had generated 55 million dollars of assets under management. In the first year, after I did the research and before I published the book, I wanted just to test how sound is this research. I generated in the first year 100 million dollars of assets under management, following strictly a process based upon the research in my book. It was mind-blowing. So that’s what happened to my conversion rate.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I love that you have that real metric-driven data result to share as a real outcome, because it’s encouraging for people that don’t implement, or are new to these principles. And coming back to what you were describing in relationship – it’s so true, and I think it’s Maya Angelou, she’s got a quote around “People don’t always remember what you say, don’t always remember what you do, but they remember how you made them feel”, and the way you’re describing this attunement, this presence, and helping someone feel comfortable and invited… Even when we’re deeply listening, the speaker will say things that perhaps they wouldn’t have otherwise said, just because there’s that presence and that real deep listening.

And I am also listening to this and I’m thinking – so  often when couples get into trouble… Because what you’re referencing at a cocktail party is a pretty neutral environment, a neutral interaction, that you can reverse-engineer with that mind of “Oh, if I invite them to share and we get to know each other on a more deeper level, that’s gonna cultivate a positive feeling, and these positive or feel-good neurochemicals.” But when we look at intimacy and couples, and perhaps when they’re in a conflictual interaction where there’s conflict, people typically wanna talk over each other… And I’m just curious if you have anything to say about that, because it’s — people start raising their voice, because they don’t feel heard, and then they keep upping the ante because they’re really wanting to feel heard, but they’re almost speaking two different languages.

Dan Solin: So I devote a whole section of my book to this subject, because it’s just a fascinating subject. If you’re gonna talk about relationships, what more important relationships are there than intimate couples? And when I looked at the data on this, one of the things that — I don’t wanna say I was totally surprised, but kind of surprised me was how unhappy so many relationships are. A high rate of divorce… Of the people who are living together, a high percentage of — and I was surprised, but maybe it wouldn’t be surprising to people in the field… But a significant percentage of them express feelings of being unhappy; poor communication.

So I looked at all that, and then I looked at the research on how can you make that better. There’ve been some excellent studies on this subject. One that comes to mind, two researchers – I think their name is Gottman and Levenson –  studied couples who were engaged in arguments over some issue… Because that’s what usually triggers a lot of — exactly what you said… We can be very respectful of each other when things are going great, but when we have an argument, we engage in very negative behaviors. You mentioned talking over – that’s probably the least malignant behavior that people do. Talking in a disrespectful way, belittling, demeaning, and even abusing psychologically or physically.

What these two researchers did – a famous study – they video-taped couples arguing about something for 15 minutes, and then they followed them for… I forget how many years, but 10 or 15 years… And they were able, using a particular benchmark which I’ll discuss, they were able to determine which couples would stay together, and which ones would get divorced with an incredible accuracy. Based solely on 15 minutes of video.

The key driver of successful relationships or non-successful relationships was how many positive or negative interactions they had during that 15-minute period… And they’ve found the magic number was 5 to 1. Five positive to one negative interaction.

So couples who are name-calling and engaging in all kinds of terrible behavior – those couples do not have a good future. But couples who approach a disagreement from a point of view of trying to understand the other person, saying things like “You know how much I love you, and I’m upset that you’re upset, so let’s work together to try to resolve this.” Couples who engage in that kind of conduct, often, even better, if they’re touching in some way – that study was really, really helpful.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Thank you for summarizing that. It’s such incredible research. And as you’re talking about this position of being curious and wanting to know more, and asking questions to get a deeper understanding, what have you found that’s helpful for people to put this into practice? Because as we listen, we probably can recognize the value of that, and our habits can be strong, and it’s sometimes easier said than done.

Dan Solin: I think you raised a point that I definitely underestimated when I wrote the book. I think because I was a trial lawyer, asking questions was a part of my training… So I was accustomed to asking questions in that context. I wasn’t accustomed at all to asking questions outside of that context; I’d never even thought about it until I did this research… But I definitely underestimated, to your point, how difficult most people find it to show a genuine interest in other people.

Now, technically or scientifically, I can understand why… Because right now, while I’m talking, I’m really enjoying this. My happiness hormones are flowing into my prefrontal cortex, I’m talking about myself, and my book, and my research… But for you and your listeners – they’re not having the same experience. So when you are involved in a relationship, it’s hard for chemical reasons for either person to give up the microphone, so to speak. So what I tell them is “Think about the bigger goal.” If the goal is to have a deeper, more meaningful relationship, you’re gonna have to sacrifice people focusing on you… Because one of the very weird things that happens is when you start asking people questions – and I’m not talking about cross-examination questions, I’m talking about the kind of questions you would ask on a date. “Where are you from? How long have you lived there?” Just questions that show you’re interested in knowing more about them. Because they enjoy answering you so much, what does not happen is they reciprocate by asking you questions. So you’re gonna have to give up that ego satisfaction and come away from that encounter – if it’s one encounter – or even in an ongoing relationship, you’re gonna have to come away and say “I had a bigger goal here. I want a deeper, more meaningful relationship. I think I can give up talking about myself.”

Actually, when I thought about this, it was like “Right now, I really know this material. I am not learning anything by telling you this.” I’ve spent a long time researching these studies. I would find it much more interesting to know about you and your listeners. My life experience would be expanded when I learned about who you all are. So I find it — particularly as an introvert, I find it so much less anxiety-producing to show an interest in other people than to talk about myself, because I really don’t like talking about myself.

So to break down your question, it’s easier for introverts to ask questions for those reasons, because we don’t like talking about ourselves. It’s harder for extroverts, because they enjoy being the center of attention. But the ultimate goal is to flip that light switch in your brain from conveying information to eliciting information. Put your agenda aside, and when you do that with a pure heart – like, “I really do just wanna know more about you”, that’s when the magic happens.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I honestly continue to feel the depth of this, even with my husband, and we’ve been together for 14+ years… And I continue to learn more about him, and having that curiosity, having that beginner’s mind… And it’s amazing when I can hold space. And he identifies as being an introvert, and I am probably somewhere in the middle, but more of a lean to an extrovert… But I get so much value out of knowing him more deeply, and I love that you’re speaking to the value for the listener as well.

Dan Solin: One of the things I tell people is “Try this at home.” Those are the most important people to you. And the days — it seems so long ago when you would and I were traveling around, going to conferences and meeting other people… But the example I used to give is — say I come home from giving a talk somewhere, and the first thing my wife is gonna say is “How was the conference?” Now my brain starts to light up, and I have a choice. I can spend a lot of time talking about details of the conference, and how my talk went, and what the feedback was, and how the food was, and the hotel, and the trip… Or I can give a very brief answer and say “You know, the conference was really great. What did you do while I was gone?”, which is now called the Solin Pivot, which is you answer a question, and then you pivot by asking a question. And then you keep going with the ask.

My wife’s an artist, so if she were to say “Oh, I’ve finished this portrait”, I might say “You’ve worked on that for a long time. How were you able to finish it in a week?” And just continuing to ask. And even for people like your husband, who know you really well, they will not say “Why are you asking me all these questions?” You’ll see an enormous, transformative, immediate difference in how your relationship works the more you do this.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I fundamentally agree with you. I will say, on a side note, I can be very probing. It might be my training as well… And I have had the experience with him that he’s like “Okay, no more questions.”

Dan Solin: Right.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: But I’m curious to that point though, because as you’re describing the dynamic, I do think that there could be something very powerful in your experience at the conference, and the dopamine that you might have received from that new experience, and then even sharing it with her could be bonding… Do you find that there is some reciprocity or bi-directional asking that can be helpful for intimate relationships?

Dan Solin: It’s very rare, unfortunately, for the reasons I’ve just described. Let’s put this in context… I used to ask audiences this question; I would say “How many times have you said something at party, let’s say, or upon meeting somebody – you said something that you thought was really, really interesting… Like, “We went on this trip to Peru”, or “I completed a marathon. I’ve been training for it for years. I’m so happy I did it.” So you said something really interesting. The other person stopped, looked you in the eyes, and said something like “Tell me more about that.”

I’ve spoken all over the world, to thousands of people, and I can recall less than five hands going up in the aggregate. It’s so rare that people do this, that we remember it. When I follow up with those people and I say “How do you feel about those people?” the answer is always the same. “I love them. They make me feel so special.”

So it’s so rare that people do this, that when you’re finally — it’s like being parched and you haven’t had water for the longest period of time, and somebody hands you a cold bottle of water. Are you really going to share it? You’re not. So it’s a whole new experience for the other person. They don’t process it as transformational as it really is, but it’s unique in their life.

Can I tell you a quick story? So I was at a party; and I go to very few. And I was, like most introverts, at kind of the outer fringes. It was a surprise birthday party for a very good friend of mine, for his wife… And somebody came up to me and started talking to me, and she had a whole story… And I did what I’m telling your audience to do – I just asked her questions about it; I said “Where are you from? What do you do?” and it turns out people will tell you amazing things when you empower them to do so.

So she told me this story about a terrible divorce, an abusive, alcoholic husband, children with mental problems, financial problems… This went on for like an hour. And then she said, “Dan, I’m sorry, I have to leave. I’m running late”, and she asked for my card, and I gave it to her… And then she sent me an email the next day, and she said “Dan, I just wanna tell you how much I enjoyed our conversation”, which we did not have, by the way. There was no bilateral conversation. It was her talking about it; she knows nothing about me at all, except that I was a friend of the person throwing the party. But never asked a single question.

But then she went on to say how insightful I was, and what wonderful judgment I had, even though I didn’t say anything that would warrant that evaluation. But what she was expressing was nobody in her life had ever taken the time to just listen to her. And that’s a fairly typical experience.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. And hence how ground-breaking this can be to  implement… And like you said, with the metrics of your outcomes in your profession can demonstrate. But as this can impact intimate relationships – it sounds incredibly, perhaps, simple in concept, but really, like you said, we underestimate the value of the impact of it.

Dan Solin: Getting back, Jessica, to intimate relationships – picture the conflict that you were talking about, and the couple… Each one is all revved up, each one believes they’re right, and they’re trying to persuade the other one… Which never works, by the way. It’s very difficult to persuade anyone of anything. There’s a lot of data on that. But just picture a different scenario where your agenda wasn’t to persuade the other one that you’re right, but was just to understand why they feel the way they do… And the way you would do that is by just asking questions. “Tell me more about why you feel so strongly that I’m not doing my share of household chores.” And “Would it help if I took total responsibility on weekends for doing A, B and C? Would that help us? If that won’t help, what would help? What do you think would make it better?”

When you switch from asserting a position to asking questions, that’s when powerfully positive things happen in a relationship.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, and I would agree, and I’d add that it’s incredibly disarming. I think people on face-value are afraid to almost wake the dragon, because it appears that there’s criticism, or some level of issue, and that if the questions were asked, then there would be more of that… But really, it’s typically the opposite. As someone starts to talk, they get more connected to what’s true for them, and the person listening could see “Oh, this is about them, it’s not so much about how I disappointed them, or let them down, or I’m a bad person.” I think that that can be incredibly disarming, and allow for much more revealing information around “Oh, I get it!” and that empathy. That typically lends towards that desire to help.

So I guess I’m curious, Dan, as we’re talking, how do you help people switch to this in practice? For people that are listening, that are like “I don’t know–” Well, first the conflict would be perhaps a much more difficult environment to do that in… But even if somebody’s listening and they’re saying — maybe they’re an introvert even, and they get somewhat anxious in social environments and feel a  little bit blank in their mind around what to ask… What do you recommend for people that are a little bit at a loss around where to start with this?

Dan Solin: Well, I tell them, again, to think of every encounter as a first date. But I also have a couple of phrases — I ask people, after I’ve spoken to them over the years, like “Tell me what I said that actually resonated and helped you.” Because I always believe that maybe that’s 2% of what I said. And if it’s the same 2%, then that would be helpful. So what always comes back is this – one of the things I say is “I’d like you not to be the most interesting person, but the most interested.” That line really is an epiphany for most people.

And then I ask them to be the most curious person, which means starting sentences with “You know, I’m curious about that…” When I came across that, I thought “I don’t think I’ve ever said that to anyone, no matter what they’ve said to me.” Because I, like most people, when you’re talking, I’m not really listening. I’m really thinking of what I’m going to say, to make whatever impression I think it’s going to make. Because what I didn’t realize was if I wanna make the best impression on you, it’s not through anything I say, it’s through what I’m asking of you. The questions I’m asking.

So I’d say just think of normal follow-up questions that show genuine curiosity. Those are quite easy. They start with “I’m curious about…” or “Tell me more about that…” or “What was that experience like?” or “Why did you decide to go there? Did it live up to your expectations?”

If you start thinking in terms of questions, rather than in terms of what you’re going to say, what you’re going to convey, it becomes a lot easier to ask questions… Because the new benchmark is “How many questions did I ask?”

When my wife and I  used to go out with other couples – it’s kind of sad what the pandemic has taken from us… Because we always have to be reminded how easy it is to revert to the mean and to go back to talking about ourselves. So we kind of make a bet with each other, and that is I’ll say “I’ll bet I can ask more questions than you can.” She’ll say “I’ll be you can’t.” And she always wins, because she is better at it than I am. But that gets us grounded in — our job here is to learn more about the people we’re with. That’s the gameplan. Let’s implement that.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And I’m thinking, for introverts listening that might feel some level of social anxiety, feeling reassured that asking questions is actually gonna cultivate more of that positive feeling, when perhaps prior to hearing this you might have thought “Oh, that’s gonna be socially awkward” or “I don’t know how the person’s gonna respond” or “Why are you asking me all these questions?”

But secondly, it seems like it takes the pressure off of this person that might have some social anxiety to perform, or to present themselves in a particular way. It really helps perhaps relax that “This person is sharing, and I can connect with what they’re saying and take the focus off my editorial or inner critic.”

Dan Solin: That’s such a good summary. I can tell you from my experience and from the experience of hundreds of people who have implemented the lessons in my book, all of them, virtually without exception, come back and say “I can’t believe how easy that was for me… How much less anxious I felt.” Because trying to be charming, witty, funny – this is not easy. But just saying “Oh, Jessica, what do you do?” That’s  not hard. So my process definitely alleviates social anxiety. It’s so easy once you train yourself that that’s what you’re going to be doing.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: You might get a kick out of this – I have a couple clients that are dating, that I work with individually, and the… I think it was published in New York Times, but it’s like “The 39 (or 36) questions that cultivate love” – have you seen that?

Dan Solin: Yes, I have. And I reference it in my book, actually.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah… I thought you did. And it’s just really cute to hear their experiences and what comes out of those questions… Because I think, especially with online dating, it’s not as natural as like a cocktail party… So I think that having some questions that are already even formulated – and I know the internet is full of different prompts; so if somebody is lacking what questions  and how to get creative with that, there are resources.

Dan Solin: Yeah, I think that was done by a professor of psychology [unintelligible 00:39:04.29] if my memory is correct. He published that a while ago… I’ve found that very interesting, because what they’ve found was the people who followed that in fact did have deeper, more meaningful relationships, and a reasonable percentage of them ended up getting married.

There have been a lot of dating studies, one out of MIT, and they all find the same thing, which is when the guy asks the woman questions, he is more likely to get her number than when he talks about himself, in a speed dating context. And their conversion rate went up enormously just by saying “Just ask questions.”

But the one thing I always like to point out when I’m talking is this is not a parlor trick. It can go wrong really easily if you don’t have a genuine interest in other people… Because we’re very sensitive to being manipulated. That’s where that scenario that you’ve mentioned, “Why are you asking me so many questions?” – you never hear that when people are showing a genuine interest and the questions they’re asking are appropriate follow-up questions.

If you said to me “My husband and I love to travel” and I said “Oh, where have you been? What’s the most interesting place you’ve been?”, you would not say to me “Why are you asking so many questions?”, because that’s a perfectly appropriate follow-up question.

So the data is just overwhelming on this issue. I regret that I didn’t know it much earlier.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I’m so glad you’re speaking to that, because if it’s a mechanic or a technique, I think it can go astray. And even as we were just talking a moment ago, thinking about with my husband and having had a significant amount of time with him, given that he is an introvert and I’m an extrovert, so I can process out loud, the pacing also matters. And if I almost get into my body, if you will, or kind of have my empathy hat on, and I’m feeling him, and I’m kind of putting myself in his shoes, and I don’t always know what to ask initially, if I feel into that, something emerges that feels like a really important question… But it’s not coming from my head as if I’m trying to be goal-oriented… It’s coming from a real presencing, and just (like you’re saying) a genuine desire to know… And if I don’t know right away, then it’s okay to just have some space, but to allow the question to emerge. And I don’t know if that is helpful for couples that have known each other for a period of time, or perhaps are in an interaction where — perhaps there’s a new experience, but perhaps they don’t know the questions to ask; that could be something to consider.

Dan Solin: So couples who have known each other for a period of time make the assumption that whatever they’re doing is normal, because they tend to be locked into a pattern of relating to each other. I do see this all the time – they argue about the same things, with no resolution… And their pattern of conversation is kind of ingrained. And what I try to do, and what I try to encourage people to do, is to change that implementing the research. That’s where you start to see  a  lot of progress.

I loved your reference to empathy… I refer to it in my book as the Seventh Sense. Empathy is a really important part of — when you talk about what questions to ask, they should be empathetic questions, where appropriate. If somebody expresses that they’ve just had an unfortunate death in their family or something, that’s where empathy comes to play. But empathy, like everything else I talk about in my book, has to be sincere and genuine. It can’t be contrived.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, and is there anything else you wanna say about the research, or what you’re teaching for couples that are in conflict and how to pivot from the position of asserting their stance, or to feel heard and to switch into curiosity and seeking understanding about the other?

Dan Solin: I feel a need to persuade people who are listening that this is going to work, in precisely the situation that you’re talking about. Let me just quickly, if it’s okay, Jessica, summarize the Harvard study that I referenced.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Sure.

Dan Solin: So the Harvard study took, I think, 190 participants and was done by the Psychology Department of Harvard. They asked them to bring a friend or a family member to an experiment. It did not disclose the exact nature of the experiment. When the 190  people arrived, they separated them from the person they brought with them, and in the first of two experiments they hooked them up to a functional MRI, which as you know, measured brain activity in real time. So you can see, as these people are talking, what part of their brain is lighting up, and how it’s responding… And neuroscientists can tell — they know which areas of the brain typically respond to what kind of stimulus.

Without getting into agonizing detail, they’ve put them in a room, said to them “All we want you to do is talk about yourself. That’s experiment number one.” Then they look at the results of the functional MRI and they are stunned to find that the area of the prefrontal cortex that is responsible for experience and that demonstrates a reaction to the most pleasurable activities we can engage in – sex, addictive drugs, having a fine meal, whatever – lights up in a way that’s indistinguishable from those activities.

So the immediate  conclusion from this, which was a huge epiphany for me, was getting people to talk about themselves is one of the most pleasurable activities humans can engage in.

But then they did the follow-up experiment. They said “We want you to talk about yourself, but we’re gonna type it up and we’re gonna share it with a friend or a family member that you brought with you.” Now they’ve found that the prefrontal cortex lit up even more, demonstrating that when we’re talking about ourselves to other people, this now becomes truly an incredibly pleasurable experience. So if you know that and  you love someone, whether you’re in conflict or not, why don’t you wanna give them that experience? It’s a choice, so give them that experience, and do it on a consistent basis.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Gotcha. I love it. And I know that people get stuck in their pain, and stuck in their defensive postures, or have trauma, or fear that they’re not gonna feel hurt… I know there’s a lot of places that people get stuck… And as you’re citing, research, and what can get created through this dynamic is really powerful, both emotionally, neurochemically, physiologically, relationally, on so many levels… So thank you for sharing that.

I’m curious  – I know we’re winding down our time together… Are there other things that you wanna share, that feel relevant to what we’ve been talking about?

Dan Solin: Well, there are literally hundreds of studies — I think the bibliography in my book… I didn’t wanna put all the stories in the book; it would make for dull reading. I wanted to make it a really easy read, so it could be read really quickly… But I think the bibliography is roughly 60 pages, in case anybody wants to look at the studies and say “Wow, he’s asking me to do something that’s so different from the way I normally relate to people. I wanna really read those studies and I wanna understand them better, so I wanna first get across to your listeners this is  not me musing. These are all peer-reviewed studies, they’re all cited, so you can definitely read them and see if this is something you wanna do.

One thing that I have found is that when you do this with children, it really is magical. When you ask children questions, “Who did you play with today? Was that fun? Would you like to do that again? Why do you like doing that? Is there something else you’d rather do?” When you think of all the questions you can ask children, then just watch their eyes as they’re talking and answering. It’s so rewarding to see it…

One of the points I make in the book is as we get older, we get jaded. Young children have this wonderful curiosity about them. I think you referred to it as beginner’s curiosity, or something like that, which rang a bell with me… But as we get older, we lose all that curiosity. I think our school system takes that out of us and forces us to comply with directions and orders.

I really wish there was a way we could get back to that childlike curiosity… “Why is the sky blue? Why is cereal called corn flakes? Why are things packaged in red?” I think that kind of curiosity — and I don’t mean literally, but I just mean that sense of wonder… It is a wonderful thing for relationships, and it’s so lacking.

Just a very quick story – when I’m on a plane, or I used to be on a plane, if somebody talked to me, they’d say “What do you do?” and I would say “I’m an author”, because of the things I do, I think that’s the most interesting. And then I would say “And what do you do?” and after I said “What do you do?”, typically, if you sat next to somebody and they said “I’m an author”, what’s the first question you would ask them?

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I would ask about their books, or “What do you write?”

Dan Solin: Right, “What kind of books do you write?” So I could sit next to somebody – and I did – who was a mechanical engineer; we were flying to Chicago, and he said “I’m a mechanical engineer.” I said “Honestly, I have no idea what mechanical engineers do.”  We talked for two hours. He never asked me what kind of books I wrote. For all he know, I could be a romance novelist, or whatever; he never asked. He gave me his card, and he said “We have to stay in touch. That was the best conversation I can remember having.” That’s what happens when you ask questions.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Well, I know there’s so much to be said on this, and I so appreciate what you’re sharing with us today. How can people get in touch with you, or your book, or your teachings?

Dan Solin: So they can go to AskDanSolin.com, which the website for the book. They can buy the book on Amazon. I don’t do private coaching in a  non-business setting, because I think they would be much better served calling you, Jessica, for that kind of counseling… And my email is [email protected]. I’m happy to answer any questions relating to the book. Feel free to write me if you read the book and you have some questions; I’m always happy to answer questions from readers.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And for people that are interested in business, do you consult for CEOs, or people that are in positions of leadership?

Dan Solin: I do. I do some executive coaching. I really enjoy doing that. But I stay in my lane, which is there are a lot of executive coaches who would be much better than I am at some of the details of leadership… But as far as the research that I’ve done, when that would be helpful to people, those are the assignments I like taking on.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Wonderful. And do you do workshops still, or lectures?

Dan Solin: I used to give 15-20 talks a year all over the world. I do webinars now, which have been very effective… But when I do webinars – because I kind of eat my own cooking; I know that people have a very short attention span. They don’t want me to lecture. Nobody wants that. They really don’t want advice either, which is another subject… So they are mainly Q&As. So we do a webinar, I get the questions from them when they register, and we have a very interactive webinar. Those are great fun. I really enjoy those.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: And can people learn about that on your website?

Dan Solin: They can. They can just contact me and I’m happy to explain what we do.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Wonderful. Well, Dan, thank you for spending your valuable time with us, sharing your insights, understandings. I’m sure people will be getting your book.  It’s titled Ask. Do you wanna say anything else about your book?

Dan Solin: Yeah, it’s titled “Ask: How to relate to anyone.” On Amazon, for some reason, you have to type “Ask”, and then start typing “How”, otherwise you get a lot of extraneous stuff… But I do wanna thank you so much, Jessica, for having me on your podcast. I really enjoyed talking to you, and I hope what we’ve talked about will be helpful for your listeners.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I’m sure it will be. Thank you again.

I hope you have enjoyed today’s interview, again, with Dan Solin. If you want access to today’s show notes, you can (again) visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast, and you’ll find today’s episode, 258, how to create powerfully positive connections, an interview with Dan Solin. You’ll also find the free guide, Shifting Criticism Into Connected Communication.

Thank you for listening, and until next time, I hope you take great care.

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